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Arnab
April 15, 2005, 08:16 PM
The Anti Lara Fan
Posted - Fri Apr 15 2005
THE MORGAN COULTHURST

Don't be fooled by his 10 000 runs, two world records, 27 centuries including a quadruple, triple and five doubles. Lara is a cancer on West Indies cricket. At first glance this logic seems irrational, but to really understand it you have to speak to an ALF. I dont mean the comedian turned born-again Christian with headlining experience. In this case, ALF stands for Anti Lara Fan.

The two fundamentals of ALF are simple:

1. Any runs scored by Lara are only for himself and not on behalf of the West Indies team. Lara's runs always come with a selfish motive

2. Lara makes runs only when he wants to. Any low score is either a deliberate attempt to undermine the incumbent captain, or just a matter of being "don't carish." He's thinking about carnival or some British supermodel.

ALFs are masters at taking any situation in a game involving West Indies and constructing an argument proving that Lara is the problem. The simpler the premise of their arguments the better. The example below illustrates an ALF argument which can be applied in the wake of the Port-of-Spain defeat.

Fact 1: Lara didn't play in the First Test in Guyana and the team drew.

Fact 2: Lara played in the Second Test in Trinidad and the team lost.

Conclusion: West Indies are a better team without Lara and he should be omitted.

Believe it or not, this simple logic is enough to convince many. There are, however, others who will demand that the ALF come with something a bit stronger and consider at least some other elements such as the performance of the South Africans, the flat pitch at Bourda, the performance of other batsmen in the West Indies team, Shivs captaincy, the no balls of Reon King and of course Laras overall contribution in the losing cause.

But ALFs are not easily defeated; in fact, they will then turn that evidence against Lara by explaining to you that all of the other factors were influenced by Lara. In the last Test match, Lara made 200 runs, but ALFs will tell you defeat was Lara's fault because the other members of the team did not score runs. Lara quite simply stops others from performing by his very presence. He makes other batsmen feel so inferior they can't even hold a bat straight. He stops the bowlers from taking wickets and sends out so much negativity that fielders can't even hold on to the dolly catches. At the same time he inspires the opposition to play better. Once bombarded by this evidence, always presented with high emotion, even the biggest Lara supporter is forced to give up in exasperation.

ALFs have ready made anti Lara arguments for all scenarios. When Lara makes a big score and other batsmen support with runs to produce a formidable total, Lara's innings is irrelevant. The fact that everybody else made runs means that the wicket must have been really easy. This adds fuel to another common ALF belief that Lara is only a flat wicket bully.

When Lara makes a moderate score, but the team makes a big score, Lara is to blame for simply not trying (Refer to point 2 of ALF fundamentals). If Lara is the best batsmen in the world he should have stood up like the others.

Lara has made hundreds with injured thumbs, hamstring strains and even hepatitis, but ALFs will warn you not to mistake any of this for dedication to the cause of West Indies cricket. It is all a matter of glory for Lara (Refer to Point 1 of ALF Fundamentals). When Lara almost single- handedly won two Test matches against Australia in 1999 that was not inspirational leadership. That was selfish play aimed at just securing his position as West Indies captain after being put on a two-match probation. Of course, if he had failed as a batsman in that series, the ALF response would have been, a true champion batsman should be able to make runs under any conditions against the best opposition.

So win, lose or draw, Lara is the victim. Lara should realise that his over-achievement is frowned on by the growing population of ALFs among us. If he can curb his appetite for runs, step back and try to play at the level of the others and not be a "stand out" he may blunt the ALF attacks. Who knows, one day a little ALF may even whisper in your ear that Lara just might have been a team man with West Indies cricket at heart.

shaoun
April 16, 2005, 12:25 AM
who is this idoit? west indies is better team without lara? does this guy have brain damage.

Spitfire_x86
April 16, 2005, 12:37 AM
and Pakistan is better without Inzamam :great:

zaed
April 16, 2005, 12:46 AM
Buddy tell you what!!!!!!!!
Lara is Lara......

zaed
April 16, 2005, 12:48 AM
and talking about him???
one of the best match winner in this whole world....

Arnab
April 16, 2005, 12:38 PM
Hmm...Sarcasm 101 is in order.

couger
April 19, 2005, 10:38 PM
Let me be the devil's advocate and say that I have to agree with the article, at least to a certain extent. It is my belief that no matter how talented a player is he is not greater than the team. Problem with Lara is that while he posesses the talent to singlehandedly turn a game he rarely does that. His test innings of 400 was a perfect eexample of his selfishness. Had he declared an hour or two early they had a genine chance of winning, instead he chose personal goal over team achievment.

His captaincy is even more damaging to the team. He sets very bad examples to the younger players with his indifferent behaviour. I do realize, at his level you're entitled to certain level of ego but Lara at times appears an "ego maniac".

His lack of respect for team mangement and coahes is well documented. In his career he's already been banned(sort of) three times. Would any mangement do this to a player of his caliber if what charges against him wasn't grave?

chyicarus
April 20, 2005, 12:29 AM
well Lara is a great player and a genius- that is definitely true- it is also true that he doesn't produce his best all the time and that his emotions and mood swings gets in the way. but when he wants to- he can easily play better than Sachin- any given day.
But i disregard the claim that he acts selfishly. I am not sure if the person who wrote the article has any knowledge of the cricket played in the WI. The players produced in WI have all been only talented, not polished.

Shehwar
April 20, 2005, 01:21 AM
It'll be interesting to find out who actually wrote this article though......

AsifTheManRahman
April 20, 2005, 10:28 AM
i've always seen lara as a selfish batter who always thinks of himself as higher than the team - not really a team player of any sorts. although i agree with the article to a small extent, i have to say that the WI team has become so pathetic over the years that even some selfish runs are more than enough to save their butts. WI without lara is as helpless as a one year old crawling on the highway (minus the ongoing series against SA).

i think the article could have been composed better - it was a bit too harsh.

Arnab
April 20, 2005, 01:20 PM
Has everyone's sarcasm radar gone crazy?

And I can also see some ALFs in this thread as well.

Edited on, April 20, 2005, 6:22 PM GMT, by Arnab.

Arnab
April 20, 2005, 01:28 PM
His test innings of 400 was a perfect eexample of his selfishness. Had he declared an hour or two early they had a genine chance of winning, instead he chose personal goal over team achievment.

A "genuine" chance of winning? That was a flat track for five whole days. Are you suggesting that the mighty West Indian bowlers would have bowled England out twice inside two and a quarter days (a feat that they weren't able to produce on bowling pitches in the previoius three tests even once) on that flat pitch ONLY IF Lara batted 30 minutes less?

couger
April 20, 2005, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Arnab
His test innings of 400 was a perfect eexample of his selfishness. Had he declared an hour or two early they had a genine chance of winning, instead he chose personal goal over team achievment.

A "genuine" chance of winning? That was a flat track for five whole days. Are you suggesting that the mighty West Indian bowlers would have bowled England out twice inside two and a quarter days (a feat that they weren't able to produce on bowling pitches in the previoius three tests even once) on that flat pitch ONLY IF Lara batted 30 minutes less?

The point is as long as there is a chance of winning you have to go for it. True, WI bowling lineup wasn't anything to write home about but then again neither was England batting lineup.

couger
April 20, 2005, 05:11 PM
On the same note, I didn't consider Kuble's 10 wickets in an inning against Pakistan selfish as the outcome was pretty much decided. I didn't think other Indian bowlers NOT trying to take any wicket was wrong.

Arnab
April 20, 2005, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by couger
The point is as long as there is a chance of winning you have to go for it. True, WI bowling lineup wasn't anything to write home about but then again neither was England batting lineup.

The counterpoint is the "chance of winning" was not so cruciallly dependent upon a 30 minute extension of the Lara innings as some people are making it out to be. In other words, WI's chance of winning didn't dramatically/significantly go down, by any logical stretch of imagination, because Lara played 30 mins more.

***

ADD: And I don't know what criteria you are using to say England batting lineup wasn't anything to write home about, especially against WI bowlers.

Edited on, April 20, 2005, 10:20 PM GMT, by Arnab.

couger
April 20, 2005, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Arnab
WI's chance of winning didn't dramatically/significantly go down, by any logical stretch of imagination, because Lara played 30 mins more.
Edited on, April 20, 2005, 10:20 PM GMT, by Arnab.

That is purely your opinion. I happen to think otherwise. We'll never know now so I'll leave it at that.

couger
April 20, 2005, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Arnab

ADD: And I don't know what criteria you are using to say England batting lineup wasn't anything to write home about, especially against WI bowlers.

Edited on, April 20, 2005, 10:20 PM GMT, by Arnab.

How else would you describe them?

Arnab
April 21, 2005, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by couger
Originally posted by Arnab
WI's chance of winning didn't dramatically/significantly go down, by any logical stretch of imagination, because Lara played 30 mins more.
Edited on, April 20, 2005, 10:20 PM GMT, by Arnab.

That is purely your opinion. I happen to think otherwise. We'll never know now so I'll leave it at that.

That's not exactly purely my opinion. That's a reasonable estimate. We need to consider the objective conditions and contexts surrounding the match to assess how reasonabale our opinions are. And I am fairly confident that mine is more reasonable.

Arnab
April 21, 2005, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by couger
Originally posted by Arnab

ADD: And I don't know what criteria you are using to say England batting lineup wasn't anything to write home about, especially against WI bowlers.

Edited on, April 20, 2005, 10:20 PM GMT, by Arnab.

How else would you describe them?

Good batsmen quite capable of playing out WI bowlers for two and a half days (or even more) twice on a flat pitch.

bangla_amar
April 21, 2005, 11:24 PM
I suspect the writer is one of the caribbean Lara fans frequenting the caribbeancricket.com message board. There is huge fight always goes on between Lara fans and Lara haters.

I think Arnab's point is very much valid, it was highly improbable of windies to win that match on such a docile track in ARG. Even if we assume the impossibility, what difference it would make? 3-0 to 3-1? Who cares? But a world record like 400 carries much more pride for caribbean people than a dead rubber win.

Whatever it is....

Lara is the greatest!!!!

Too bad, he missed out on double century again!

islam
April 22, 2005, 02:56 AM
*lol*
The writer of the article is stupid. Lara is 33 now and has more than 10,000 and is not the capation of WI.
He has 7 double centuries 28 centuries and many more 1/2 centuries. He could be like jimmy adams, carl hooper and quit since he lost the captaincy, but he plays on and in a lot of the WIndian inngins in recent times he scores more than 1/2 the total team runs scored by his team. He is from a different era than the current crop of Wi players, once he retires it will signal the true end of WI cricket.

mwrkhan
April 22, 2005, 03:06 AM
Lara is 35 but he could still play a few more years.

Sham
April 22, 2005, 07:55 PM
OH MY GOD! People still haven't figured out that the writer was being sarcastic and ridiculing ALFs.

Arnab, forget Sarcasm 101, English 101 might be in order!

shovon13
April 24, 2005, 04:36 PM
hahahahahaha

truly hilarious!

Locutus
April 26, 2005, 12:34 PM
I wonder what is the stats on West Indies win and lose when Lara plays and doesn't play. Any one have any idea?

FaltuRidwanBhai
April 28, 2005, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by islam
*lol*
The writer of the article is stupid. Lara is 33 now and has more than 10,000 and is not the capation of WI.
He has 7 double centuries 28 centuries and many more 1/2 centuries. He could be like jimmy adams, carl hooper and quit since he lost the captaincy, but he plays on and in a lot of the WIndian inngins in recent times he scores more than 1/2 the total team runs scored by his team. He is from a different era than the current crop of Wi players, once he retires it will signal the true end of WI cricket.


yes that is when west indies will join us and zimbabwe. but hopefully by the time lara will retire and west indies will drop bangladesh will be cruising 37000 ft in the air already.
well lara is definatly one of the best batsman in cricket especially in test cricket. i dont think there is no doubt about that. i am not sure about his attitude though. infact he is actually the "prince". so probably he is different from the other players who are actually the "citizens".

ZunaidH
May 5, 2005, 10:12 AM
I am an "anti-Lara fan." He is no MVP. MVPs help their teams win.

Arnab;

I wasn't the only one who believe WI are better off without Mr. Lara. Perhaps getting him out is what their cure. Check the following quote:

And what are we supposed to make of the recent South Africa series? West Indies were bizarrely at their best in Guyana without Lara and the other Cable (& Wireless) guys. When the great man returned, normal service was resumed. He made loads of runs, and his team lost.

Full article:
http://content.cricinfo.com/columns/content/story/208704.html

Arnab
May 5, 2005, 11:06 AM
Well, that is a poor article.

In the realm of logical fallacies, there are two very basic non sequiturs that kind of go hand in hand:

1. Affirming the Consequent
Definition:
Any argument of the following form is invalid:
If A then B
B
Therefore, A

Examples:
(i) If I am in Calgary, then I am in Alberta. I am in Alberta,
thus, I am in Calgary. (Of course, even though the premises
are true, I might be in Edmonton, Alberta.)
(ii) If the mill were polluting the river then we would see an
increase in fish deaths. And fish deaths have increased. Thus,
the mill is polluting the river.

2. Denying the Antecedent

Definition:
Any argument of the following form is invalid:
If A then B
Not A
Therefore, Not B

Examples:
(i) If you get hit by a car when you are six then you will die
young. But you were not hit by a car when you were six.
Thus you will not die young. (Of course, you could be hit by
a train at age seven, in which case you still die young.)
(ii) If I am in Calgary then I am in Alberta. I am not in
Calgary, thus, I am not in Alberta.

ZunaidH
May 5, 2005, 01:04 PM
...I still say Lara is the albatross.

Fazal
May 5, 2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by ghor_jamai
...I still say Lara is the albatross.

Agree! He is also a asbestos and therefore cancerous.

FaltuRidwanBhai
May 6, 2005, 02:10 PM
oishob kon bhasha bhai. aktu banglay buzhay den.

Sovik
November 8, 2006, 08:01 PM
funny and painful

CricFanBD
November 9, 2006, 06:39 AM
Some people are really sick....there is no cure about that.......

thebest
November 9, 2006, 07:00 AM
Some people are really sick....there is no cure about that.......
because they are not Lara fan. Anyway, I m a Lara fan

Tigers_eye
November 9, 2006, 11:58 AM
ALF = Those who think Sachin is god. Hense to promote Sachin they have to belittle Lara. Finding faults in human takes very little effort.

I love the sentence where it says, "2. Lara makes runs only when he wants to..." That means he could have scored more if he had chosen :) That itself is a scary thought from a 10k batsman. According to those ALF Lara should not be considered as a 10k but 20k batsman. :)

akabir77
November 10, 2006, 10:10 AM
ha ha lara without WI is like hm hm hm Ashraful without bd. oppss the later one actually true....just kidding...
I like the idea. can we drop lara against bangladesh?

roc
November 15, 2006, 07:25 PM
whoever wrote this article is a tendulkar lover.

Sovik
November 16, 2006, 09:52 AM
whoever wrote this article is a tendulkar lover.

we like lara but for that we don't hate sachin

MarufH
November 16, 2006, 11:28 AM
All I have to say is......

what happened to <st1>l</st1><st1>West Indies</st1> when Lara wasn't in form and he wasn't the captain?!

That team would've easily been beaten by today’s <st1><st1:country-region w:st="on">Bangladesh</st1:country-region></st1> team!!!!

This guy has some serious GUTS to talk about one of the greatest man cricket ever produced. He is talking about some domestic cricket, why the heck doesn't he talk about hundreds of time when Lara single handedly saved <st1>West Indies</st1> from doomed. Imagine the last match they played against Pak, the match would've been over in 2/3 days!!!

All I can say to this loser is...

Get a Life, if you don't have one go find it in the jungle!!!<o>:p></o>:p>

sislam2
November 23, 2006, 02:26 PM
[QUOTE=couger;160806]Let me be the devil's advocate and say that I have to agree with the article, at least to a certain extent. It is my belief that no matter how talented a player is he is not greater than the team. Problem with Lara is that while he posesses the talent to singlehandedly turn a game he rarely does that. His test innings of 400 was a perfect eexample of his selfishness. Had he declared an hour or two early they had a genine chance of winning, instead he chose personal goal over team achievment.


I hope his 216 against shows how much he cares for the to win. He blasted a 77 ball century and then kept a 70+ strike rate so that the team can have a big lead and win. So, it is easy blame him for selfishness but do your analysis before blame a player like him for anything.

ammark
November 23, 2006, 04:55 PM
ohh sovik bhai, good thread to dig up. it was hilarious! :D

CricFanBD
November 23, 2006, 07:03 PM
I don't understand...why ...this Rubbish Thread is still open?????

Sovik
November 23, 2006, 07:43 PM
I don't understand...why ...this Rubbish Thread is still open?????

its fun to read these kinds of articles

HereWeGo
November 23, 2006, 10:34 PM
I havent read the whole article to be honest. But u cant even be sarcastic and say lara is bad. Imagine record books without Lara. Hayden ( who hardly played test cricket for even 10 years) holding the record for Maximum runs and that too against a lucklustre Zimbabwe attack. Cricket is more than that. That 153 against Australia, his selfless act of coming down the order to provide confidence to the younger guys... i mean Tendulkar can never do that. Lara's average against any team is almost the same. Not that he would have averaged less than 100 against kenya or Zimbabwe but he never plays for record. Look at tendulkars average against kenya.... Just don even compare pls.... Tendulkar is selfish like most cricketers of the subcontinent. Lara is Lara. he plays for the team. Even at 37 he is motivated enough to continue. And even today he is ranked the very best. after almost a decade and a half.

CricFanBD
November 23, 2006, 11:01 PM
I havent read the whole article to be honest. But u cant even be sarcastic and say lara is bad. Imagine record books without Lara. Hayden ( who hardly played test cricket for even 10 years) holding the record for Maximum runs and that too against a lucklustre Zimbabwe attack. Cricket is more than that. That 153 against Australia, his selfless act of coming down the order to provide confidence to the younger guys... i mean Tendulkar can never do that. Lara's average against any team is almost the same. Not that he would have averaged less than 100 against kenya or Zimbabwe but he never plays for record. Look at tendulkars average against kenya.... Just don even compare pls.... Tendulkar is selfish like most cricketers of the subcontinent. Lara is Lara. he plays for the team. Even at 37 he is motivated enough to continue. And even today he is ranked the very best. after almost a decade and a half.
Your writings touch my feelings. I believe your every word of writings always. Thanks a lot for your great comment. Cricket is a game of records. But only record does not judge a player’s standard. Some player are so big…they never play for record….record itself come to their feet…Lara is that type of player…he is the best Batsmen in the world cricket ever, Considering Modern Fast Bowlers, lots of Matches, Playing two versions of cricket (ODI and Test)…Lara is not only better than Bradman or any other else…he is the best.

Protic
November 25, 2006, 02:35 PM
Points
. Lara's a good player
. Lara is very consistent
. Lara is not a good captain
. Lara is a match winner
. Lara is a selfish batter

HereWeGo
November 26, 2006, 02:26 PM
Points
. Lara's a good player
. Lara is very consistent
. Lara is not a good captain
. Lara is a match winner
. Lara is a selfish batter

Selfish....like how.... ??? I don think he plays for himself. Except the occasion when he scored 400. he could have declared 5 overs before. But even if he would have done that, still wont have made any difference to the outcome of the match. By the way a matchwinner can never be selfish. Look at his record against weak bowling attacks. It is same as against the likes of SA and australia. Not that he cant average 100 against kenya or zmbabwe attack if he wants to.

Well look at the teams that he was asked to captain in the past. There is nothing that anyone could have done. Bashar cant have the same captaincy record if he captained the bangladeshi side in 1995. Lara scored more than 400 runs in the Srilanka series which he captained and lost all three tests. So captaincy never effected his performance. Give him a team, like australia he will prove his mettle.

SMHasan
December 5, 2006, 10:17 PM
ALF = Those who think Sachin is god. Hense to promote Sachin they have to belittle Lara. Finding faults in human takes very little effort.

I love the sentence where it says, "2. Lara makes runs only when he wants to..." That means he could have scored more if he had chosen :) That itself is a scary thought from a 10k batsman. According to those ALF Lara should not be considered as a 10k but 20k batsman. :)

If people think that Sachin is better than Lara in helping their team to win than they are wrong if you consider test cricket. Lara has won lots of tests for WI but its rare for Sachin. Can you remember that series in WI in 1998-99 against the mighty Ausies? OMG awesome! He is a genious. But its true he doesn't deliver often to his team's needs.

Protic
December 7, 2006, 12:10 AM
HereWeGo : lol.. comparing Bashar with Lara? I would better not reply.

HereWeGo
December 7, 2006, 12:56 PM
HereWeGo : lol.. comparing Bashar with Lara? I would better not reply.

what i meant was that if Lloyd captained a siade which was as good as bangladesh than he wont have had the same captaincy record. Instead of Lloyd i chose bashar and the team i was reffering too was the bangladesh team back in 1995. I only meant that if the team itself is bad than a captain cant do nething. Even if i am mad drunk i will still not compare lara with bashar. Pls read my post again if u still think u don undertand.