[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Blah
I won't pretend that I am trying not to insult you, because the mere proposal of non-belief is an insult to you personally. So, its a no win situation.

since you know me personally, and hence know that i have no non-muslim friends, and since i fired off the first round of insults on this thread towards you/atheists, you must be then, necessarily, be correct.

my apologies.

No a desire is not enough to kill people. There are two type of people who kill maliciously, people who kill because they have something to gain (money, greed, revenge, avenge, pleasure because mentally sick) and people who kill because they have found justification in their religion belief (killing infidels with a promise to go to heaven, honor killing of family members, killing someone because you think they have insulted your religion, killing merely because islam needs to rule the world).

thats just 1 single reason.

people who kill in order that Islam will rule the word, are killing for personal gain. their gain is the fact that Islam will either rule the world as a result, or will be that much closer.

get it?

You will never find someone who wakes up one day and says "hmm, since I don't believe in any god and since I don't have anything to fear after I die and there is no one watching, lets strap a bomb on myself and blow a building accrooss the road for shitz and giggles or that my non-belief gives me the the permission to kill anyone and everyone for any reason or no reason at all."

that isn't my arguement. at least not the crux of it. my argument is that you wouldn't do something like this not because you fear some God, but because you have been conditioned by society into believing in some form of "morality". ironically, you hold a very condescending view towards that same society for conditioning others with religion.

my argument is that since there is no such thing as morality, in the absence of a Diety to demand its adherence, IF an atheist were to commit such an action, he would not be doing anything "wrong". wrong does not exist, it is a made up concept, in the absence of God. it is as real as the ether that was thought ot permeate the universe, its as real as the Easter Bunny or Superman.



Let me give you a real life example.

Sweden has 76% of population who doesn't believe in any organized religion (23% atheists, 53% agnostics). Denmark has 68%, Norway has 64%. Are their country falling apart? Are people just randomly going around killing everyone, robbing everyone? We don't need a hypothetical scenario, at this very moment they are countries with population that are predominately non-religious yet prosperous in almost every way possible, whether it is standard of living, education, health, life expectancy, democracy. They are better off (as a society) in every way that I can think off compare to any country where the population is predominantly religious. The idea or the rational that religious moral is preventing us from destroying each other is unfounded both in actual facts or in theory.

like i said, there is also the fear of

a) going to jail

b) social conditioning into believing such acts are "henious" or "immoral" or "wrong".

what i am saying is that atheists are hypocrites, because they either do not realize it, or they hide it if they do, that morals don't exist and one cannot believe in something which does not exist.

but atheists, usually, with rare, rare, rare, exceptions say "i'm a perfectly moral person" implying that they still believe in it.

rather what they should say, if they want to be totally honest, is "there is no such thing as morality...only what society accepts as morality as originally thought up by some old man (Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, whoever).

Stalin was an atheist (which I pointed out but you ignored), Hitler was not an atheist, contrary to popular belief, just claiming that he was an atheist is an over-simplification of his religious beliefs or possibly you are just parroting talking points used by religious people against non believers.



As a matter of fact the whole idea of aryan race was transcribed from Christian heritage of German culture. This is his exact quote: In a proclamation to the German Nation February 1, 1933 Hitler stated, "The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."

March 23, 1933, he addressed the Reichstag: "The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. ... We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people."

....

According to biographer John Toland, Hitler was still "a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God—so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty."

....


"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race...so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe...Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence.

....

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

....

Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race." Albert Speer reports in his memoirs of a similar statement made by Hitler: "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

....

Hitler stated in a speech to the Stuttgart February 15, 1933: "Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years."


Yes, you should indeed be insulted and shocked of your own ignorance of that fact that Hitler was a very religious person. You make such blatant, ill-informed statement as if hitler was devoid of any religious influence is indeed quite shocking.

There has been undocumented contradictory claims by those close to hitler that he was an atheist, which can not be verified in any shape or form, but there was no written record (to the best of my knowledge) by hitler as first person of denouncing all religious or proclaiming his absence of beliefs.

except that i didn't claim Hitler was an atheist...

all i said was it took him 500 pages to malign a few tens of millions of people, and you pulled it off a feat of 100x greater magnitude in the course of a single sentence.

it was a comparison between an action of hitler and one of your own. it was not a statement that hitler was an atheist - which btw, it is not clear if he was one or not.

Stalin, as I stated, was an atheist in accordance to his Communist philosophy. His actions was not influenced by moral justification in his non-belief, it was influenced by his justification in communist philosophy.

i don't disagree, but (please read the next post for clarity)...