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  #1  
Old March 16, 2008, 12:26 PM
proxdj proxdj is offline
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Default leadership.....

So far I have seen suggestion of the following players to lead the team...
Mortaza
Razzak
Aftab
Sakib
a random riksha wala

A successful leader is often the byproduct of the system. For example, you can take Ricky Ponting and have him lead Bangladesh... we would still struggle. On the other hand, you can take an avg player from any team and have him lead Australia, they would still be one of the best if not the best. Ashraful is young, he will make mistakes and adjust to the system. He cannot bat for everyone. Each player has his responsibility to get the job done and if they all fail miserably, its not the captains fault. But the leader takes responsibility for the failure/success.

I am not saying that a leader is not important, rather an avg leader can step into a good situation and shine because of the system. Ashraful seems to be the victim of our poor performances. Too many changes in the system will lead to inconsistency and lack of team chemistry. Let this play out and the selects will look at his overall performance when the time comes and we move on from there.

Now lets kick some arse and take atleast 2 of 3 from Ireland.
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  #2  
Old March 16, 2008, 04:11 PM
zainab zainab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proxdj
So far I have seen suggestion of the following players to lead the team...
Mortaza
Razzak
Aftab
Sakib
a random riksha wala

A successful leader is often the byproduct of the system. For example, you can take Ricky Ponting and have him lead Bangladesh... we would still struggle. On the other hand, you can take an avg player from any team and have him lead Australia, they would still be one of the best if not the best. Ashraful is young, he will make mistakes and adjust to the system. He cannot bat for everyone. Each player has his responsibility to get the job done and if they all fail miserably, its not the captains fault. But the leader takes responsibility for the failure/success.

I am not saying that a leader is not important, rather an avg leader can step into a good situation and shine because of the system. Ashraful seems to be the victim of our poor performances. Too many changes in the system will lead to inconsistency and lack of team chemistry. Let this play out and the selects will look at his overall performance when the time comes and we move on from there.

Now lets kick some arse and take atleast 2 of 3 from Ireland.
Bang on! too much finger pointing atthe moment. i hope everything gets sorted out before the Ireland series star. this is not good fot the cricketers and the fans.
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  #3  
Old March 16, 2008, 04:20 PM
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djnaved djnaved is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proxdj
Ashraful is young, he will make mistakes and adjust to the system.

ash is young! bro, his actual age is close to 27
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  #4  
Old March 16, 2008, 04:37 PM
proxdj proxdj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnaved
ash is young! bro, his actual age is close to 27
A player is in his prime when he is 27-33, so he is just entering his prime plus he is young in terms of leading the team.
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  #5  
Old March 16, 2008, 04:38 PM
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Sohel Sohel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnaved
ash is young! bro, his actual age is close to 27
Here we go again ! What's your source BTW, BRO ?! Omniscience, or did you deliver him ?!

Reporting one's correct age IS an issue with many Bangladeshi cricketers, but NOT with Ash IMO. I've known him since 2001 and have no reason to believe he's older than what has been reported.

Immature, impetuous waste of talent, and totally out of sorts of late? YES !

27? NO !





According you, the kid in these pictures is 20 ... sorry to seem so harsh, nothing personal, just annoyed by another such baseless post which serves no good purpose in my mind ...

Proxdj, good to see another sane and positive thread from you. I just hope our favorite baulod can really do something about the hostility with his bat, and sustain it this time for a change ...
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Last edited by Sohel; March 17, 2008 at 01:08 AM..
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  #6  
Old March 16, 2008, 06:38 PM
proxdj proxdj is offline
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CricInfo says he is 23 and 250 days... Lets say he is 24, most baseball players begin their career around that age. He is still young as a cricketer and captain.... I would give him another 18 months as a captain and see how he does. Then you make a change if necessary where the remaining time will give the team enough time to prepare for 2011 world cup.
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  #7  
Old March 16, 2008, 07:30 PM
germany germany is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proxdj
CricInfo says he is 23 and 250 days... Lets say he is 24, most baseball players begin their career around that age. He is still young as a cricketer and captain.... I would give him another 18 months as a captain and see how he does. Then you make a change if necessary where the remaining time will give the team enough time to prepare for 2011 world cup.
all idiots at bcb, selectors
thats why we are suffering
ash is suffering

it should be aftab, javed, razzak or rafiq
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  #8  
Old March 16, 2008, 07:36 PM
proxdj proxdj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germany
all idiots at bcb, selectors
thats why we are suffering
ash is suffering

it should be aftab, javed, razzak or rafiq
Rafiq is no longer part of the ODI team

Javed is not in the best interest of young players
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  #9  
Old March 16, 2008, 08:22 PM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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I think we over simplify when we just consider age as the only factor to say if the player will grow further or not. If age is the only criteria, then yes we can say Ash should continue to grow up to 28/29 years old.

But the reality is different. Why? Because there are factors to consider also that may nullify the age factor. Let’s see what are the other factors”

1. Sometimes when a player start playing too early, their peak point comes earlier than other players who start their career late. There are plenty of examples about that in other sports in the world. There is couple of reasons for that. And one of them is:
Physical and metal exhaustion and wear and tear comes earlier to players who start early. Human body is like a car, it has some mileage that can be used, When you use them , trouble starts

2. the experience part can play both way. Proper training along with experience can make a good foundation to a young player which can go long way building their career. On the other hand, without proper training along with too much unplanned exposure at early can create and solidify bad traits which can be hard to change at later stage of a young player even he is still young.

3. If a player is young he can fix and enhance his physical skills. But if a player's problem is not physical but only mental then only experience can help him. But if he is already experienced (at early age) and have shown little sign to learn from his mistakes, then young age factor may not work for his favor. To explain further:

Player A: Age 23. Excellent (top class) physical talent. Have questionable mental maturity. Started at age 15, already played 100+ international games for 8 years. Showed little sign so far to learn and grow. However shown glimpses of high class performance when everything worked for him. But shown repeated mental lapse again and again. Player A have an average of early 20s.

Player B: Age 26. Have good physical talent. Good maturity for his age. Started at age 24 and played only 12+ international games for 1.5+ years. Showed sign that he is learning but fails mainly due to lack of experience and lack of exposure to the highest competition. Player B have an average of mid 20s.


To me, even player A is still very young, we may already seen his peak. I would say even player B is 3 years older, we haven't seen his peak yet.


Therefore people who thinks and hopes and prays and argues that Ash is still young and therefore his peak performance is yet to come, and then get disappointed and then again hope and pay and argue again he will grow just because he is still relatively young, I would ask them to rethink... because age is not the only factor working here... there are other factors also that dictate if a player can still develop and grow.


Of course there is exception, and if that what you guys (Ash fans) are all expecting, that’s fine... but don't tell us just because he is still young, therefore he will grow further as a player.

Last edited by Fazal; March 17, 2008 at 06:25 AM..
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  #10  
Old March 17, 2008, 07:22 AM
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Omio Omio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR




According you, the kid in these pictures is 20 ... sorry to seem so harsh, nothing personal, just annoyed by another such baseless post which serves no good purpose in my mind ...
I like this pic, Sohel vai, do u hav anymore pic of tht test match?
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  #11  
Old March 18, 2008, 11:03 AM
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Sohel Sohel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omio
I like this pic, Sohel vai, do u hav anymore pic of tht test match?
Soory about the late response bro, here's a few more ...




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  #12  
Old March 16, 2008, 09:19 PM
zainab zainab is offline
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Ash in whites, is how I remember him, and IMO, he looked like 15 yrs old. Who the hell is making up lies in saying that he is 27, he looks like 23 yrs old mpw, there was a qustion about the month of his birth, but I think it is July and not September.
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  #13  
Old March 16, 2008, 09:56 PM
Tehsin Tehsin is offline
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I'll use the NBA example proxdj posted here. Yes, NBA (teams) drafted these kids straight out of high school. They are highly talented, etc etc. Where the difference lies between what NBA did and what our Cricket officials have done is this, in case of Bangladesh, one NBA team would have hired all of them AT ONCE and throw them out to play against stronger, mature teams of professionals.

No matter how good these guys are, half of them would have probably sucked so bad that the team would have lost interest in them and would be replaced by newer, 'more' promising teenagers. The rest of them would have struglled as they wouldn't get the opportunity to learn from the big brothers who have been playing professional basketball and help guide kids to grow into their true potential.

If Ash were born in any of the top 6-8 test nations, his stats would have been much healthier because of the system and selection they have in place. Like proxdj said, a successful leader is a byproduct of the system. BKSP does a pretty good job in getting some of these players up to the under 19 level. After that, BCB takes over and that's where it goes south. There's something inherently wrong with our revolving selection policy and it boggles my mind to see how young our team is compared to the likes of Australia or India, etc. The sad part is, BCB is prolly too daft to even realize the harm they are doing by sticking to their failed policies.
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  #14  
Old March 17, 2008, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehsin
I'll use the NBA example proxdj posted here. Yes, NBA (teams) drafted these kids straight out of high school. They are highly talented, etc etc. Where the difference lies between what NBA did and what our Cricket officials have done is this, in case of Bangladesh, one NBA team would have hired all of them AT ONCE and throw them out to play against stronger, mature teams of professionals.

No matter how good these guys are, half of them would have probably sucked so bad that the team would have lost interest in them and would be replaced by newer, 'more' promising teenagers. The rest of them would have struglled as they wouldn't get the opportunity to learn from the big brothers who have been playing professional basketball and help guide kids to grow into their true potential.

If Ash were born in any of the top 6-8 test nations, his stats would have been much healthier because of the system and selection they have in place. Like proxdj said, a successful leader is a byproduct of the system. BKSP does a pretty good job in getting some of these players up to the under 19 level. After that, BCB takes over and that's where it goes south. There's something inherently wrong with our revolving selection policy and it boggles my mind to see how young our team is compared to the likes of Australia or India, etc. The sad part is, BCB is prolly too daft to even realize the harm they are doing by sticking to their failed policies.
Tehsin bhai you founded BC and I believe it's time to found new BCB. I totally agree with you. But the problem lies somewhere else, the structural inefficiency is causing this failure again and again and will continue to do that. Even we will not progress if we stick with our current development model. I can not believe that in all these years they failed to realize drafting young kids from U19 based on U19 level success, is not the solution. It's not the leadership, it's the failure of our current cricket structure.
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  #15  
Old March 17, 2008, 01:40 AM
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From leadership to ashs age to trying to get an analogy between NBA and Cricket.
This thread seems to have seen it all.

Its not only about captaincy and scoring runs, what I want Ash to do is SET an example for the other players in the team. The example shouldnt be set with a few overs of heroics (followed by a rash shot) in match situations. Instead spend more time in nets. Start with the extra half hour everyday and gradually building up to maybe 2-3 or even 4 hours. Show the other members of the team that, "Look guys, I am working hard. Success will come when it should". Bowl more in the nets so that this part time leggie gets better. From 2-3 overs in match situations he can go on to bowl 6-7 overs IF he starts dedicationg more time to it. Thats leadership. Not only showing others the way, but leading the way.

And after all this when finally INSHALLAH success follows him, it will be time that other members of the team follows Ashraful steps.
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  #16  
Old March 17, 2008, 03:43 AM
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Sohel Sohel is offline
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Ash is not going to become magically good between his late 20s and mid 30s.

His improvements until then need to be both steady and visible. Something all of us, his fans and foes alike, have been longing for but haven't seen much of. It is safe to say he hasn't done his talent justice up to this point for a wide variety of reasons, his compulsive brainfarting being the most obvious one. The ultimate responsibilty for positive and tangible development, of course lies with him.

A 16 YO test centurian on debut aginst Murali and Vaas in their own backyard, and a young guy whose 158* against India in Chittagong is possibly one of the finest, classiest innings played in recent memory, continues to shoot himself at the foot by having his impulses and compulsions take over at the wrong time, and not learning from his mistakes, REPEATEDLY.

Then again, who in our team does and for how long? We have higher expectations when it comes to Ash, and when he fails to deliver again and again, we are naturally more exasperated.

I'll never give up on him. But I don't think he'll be as great as he could be. Guys like Michael Clarke, thanks to his cricketing environment and the impact of that environment on his character as a cricketer, will always be ahead.

That said, I believe that all of our players - IF we keep them together as unit while improving our domestic FC/List A and emphasizing A-Team Cricket to bridge the qualitative gaps that exist between the levels - will become better players from their early 30s Inshallah once that sort of "growth-environment" doesn't allow for slack in any way, shape or form. Too bad we don't have the cosmic fast-forward button to get there right away.

We'll have to wait a couple of decades before getting our own Clarke, Ponting, Anwar, Inzi, Sachin, Sangakkara, Smith, KP or possibly UV and Ross Taylor. But we don't need those guys to belong at this highest level way before then. Infrastructure matters, as does time.
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Last edited by Sohel; March 17, 2008 at 06:03 AM..
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  #17  
Old March 17, 2008, 04:01 AM
nzfan nzfan is offline
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I actually watched that inning, how tall do you reckon ash is there?
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  #18  
Old March 17, 2008, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzfan
I actually watched that inning, how tall do you reckon ash is there?
He's 5'4", an inch shorter than my cousin Maya, who's 5'5". We met him later that evening in Chittagong. He was absurdly shy and nerovous around her while trying to keep his cool. Cute stuff ...
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  #19  
Old March 17, 2008, 04:06 AM
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wow 5'4 thats even shorter than my girlfriend, she is 5'6 i am 6'2...
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  #20  
Old March 17, 2008, 06:55 AM
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Problem is not with Ashraful - being young and all. Problem is we took away the captaincy role from Habibul Bashar way too early.

Now - we are only facing the consequences of our own actions.
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  #21  
Old March 17, 2008, 07:24 AM
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Looks like every other thread is going to be Ashraful thread these days. There is no hiding. Its crossed the point where it was just annoying, now its getting to a point of blatant stupidity to say the least. And specially some members here started dreaming about Ash. Every other post they make they cannot avoid Ash. Their Ashraful thread has had a natural death, now they go to every thread and start posting Ash this, Ash that. I mean give us a break. Do this in a single thread. Not in every other thread out there. Can we talk about anything other than Ashraful? For fhucs sakes, captaincy is not our main concern at the moment. Its the whole team including Ash losing form at the same time is the real concern. Even Steve Waugh would fail in such circumstances. And Ashraful is just a newbie in this captaincy business. There is no guaratee that he would come good one day, but its too early to judge him right now. He is still a kid, but is the best we have at the moment. Its a fact, but a sad one.
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  #22  
Old March 17, 2008, 10:08 AM
zainab zainab is offline
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If the current cricket structure is not revamped, then BD is not going anywhere soon.
Siddons need to choose 21 players and work very hard with them. He has to build character, mental endurance and physical endurance and in time good cricket will follow, but he has to start right away. If he does this, by the time they tour Australia, they will physically and mentally be a much better team. He has also has to have a bouncy wicket, so they can survive in Australia and SA.
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  #23  
Old March 17, 2008, 10:28 AM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zainab
If the current cricket structure is not revamped, then BD is not going anywhere soon.
Siddons need to choose 21 players and work very hard with them. He has to build character, mental endurance and physical endurance and in time good cricket will follow, but he has to start right away.

May be he is alreay doing that. And may be these players are (not in order):
1. Tamim
2. Zunaid
3. SN
4. Aftab
5. Ash
6. Nazim
7. Rakibuk
8. Sakib
9. Farhad
10. Rahim
11. Dhiman
12. Rubel
13. Mahmudullah
14. Shahadat
15. Rasel
16. Mashrafee
17, Enamul Haque
18. Sajidul
19. Mehrab Jr.
20. Open slot
21. Open Slot

May be he is planing to give everyone some chance to grow... may be thats why there are too many changes between series....and may be he is already growing Sakib to be the captain.

I knows its too many may be... but still may be Siddon has a plan and he is working according to the plan, and may be we, the fans, are too impatient to see the plan yet.

Now whether BCB has a plan or not? Thats a different question.
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  #24  
Old March 17, 2008, 11:07 AM
zainab zainab is offline
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Seems that your choice is good, now he needs one more batsman and one more bowler, then in 6 months, we will see vast improvement. If only, this can be true, and Siddons has this mindset as us.
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  #25  
Old March 18, 2008, 08:01 AM
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rite now we see things as going the wrong way.. but siddons is the coach.. i think he can see this stuff far beyond us.. maybe all these changes will help us in the near future.. dunno how.. but come on.. none of us are cricketers or coaches
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