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  #1  
Old December 3, 2010, 12:38 PM
betaar betaar is offline
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Default Ian Pont and his Butterfly Effect - saaay what???

I know we are basking in the glory of leveling the series but one thing is increasingly growing to be a matter of great concern before the WC……you guessed it, FAST BOWLING.

Our fast bowling against NZ was good, good enough to pick up wickets at the right time to win matches. There haven’t been too many cases where our fast bowlers, bar Mash’s early days, won matches for us and I hoped that was about to change due to the inclusion of Ian Pont. So to see the improvement in that department in NZ series was heart warming.

After seeing the improvement, here in BC, some of us (as usual) jumped to the conclusion and credited Ian Pont. But there were some cautiously optimists, like me, suggested to wait and see if it was really his influence or coaching that did the trick. After seeing 2 matches in this series, I must say our fast bowling is back to its usual self. One could argue that one of our better bowlers, Rubel Hussain, is sitting out to make room for Mash, so what do you expect? But what about Shafiul?

It’s true that Mash is definitely not 100%, physically and technically, but why can’t Shafiul deliver? Mash was injured from the first match against NZ and obviously was out of practice, so he can be excused for not learning anything or not delivering whatever he may have learnt from Pont. But I just fail to understand why Shafiul shows no sign of improvement. Have you also seen the way Shahadat bowled against the Afghans?

Please be clear, by improvement I am not speaking of pace, or having new arsenal in bowling armory; I am speaking of doing the basic right on a more consistent basis. At this level after being trained by so many coaches these bowlers should be able to land the ball on the seam and on the right line and length at will, but have we seen that happening?

I know the pitches of Bangladesh are slow which is exactly why line and length is so important. Just look at the way Mpofu bowled. He is not that tall or built and bowled way slower than Shafiul, but he was able to extract so much movement and bounce because of his seam position and landing it where it needed to be. Even his 125k speed seems unplayable at times because of the extra speed or movement the ball gathers after it lands on the seam.

If Ian Pont is not able to understand these simple things (which I am sure a coach of his caliber does) and more importantly inject these simple concepts in the mind of our young bowlers then why bother with him. But if it’s the bowlers who are failing to execute what they learn, then kick them out….use the ones that can.

I have heard and read so many things about Pont adding new tricks such as butterfly effect and all that, so far the only thing I see is the butterfly in the big belly of our fast bowler.

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  #2  
Old December 3, 2010, 12:48 PM
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Mpofu is not tall? Saay what?
About Pont- let's wait till the series ends before evaluating him.
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  #3  
Old December 3, 2010, 12:57 PM
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Maybe the pacers over did it a bit during practice? It's never a good thing to over do something ... perhaps that's the reason for the burnout of the pacers

BTW btterfly effect just sounds like a fancy way of saying HIT ME FOR SIX ... it better be worth it because our pacers lost their line and length and it's showing during the matches
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  #4  
Old December 3, 2010, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habib
Mpofu is not tall? Saay what?
About Pont- let's wait till the series ends before evaluating him.
I never said he was, did I?
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  #5  
Old December 3, 2010, 07:37 PM
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FagunerAgun FagunerAgun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habib
Mpofu is not tall? Saay what?
About Pont- let's wait till the series ends before evaluating him.
Agree, it is too early to evaluate.
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  #6  
Old December 3, 2010, 01:00 PM
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Try Rabbi in the 5th ODI if we already made the series.
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  #7  
Old December 3, 2010, 01:05 PM
betaar betaar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One World
Try Rabbi in the 5th ODI if we already made the series.
Are you kididng me, even bowlers, who have been coached and trained, that are better than him are sitting out, why would you try a nub bowler right before the WC. The trained ones don't succeed....why risk with the untrained ones.
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  #8  
Old December 3, 2010, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betaar
Are you kididng me, even bowlers, who have been coached and trained, that are better than him are sitting out, why would you try a nub bowler right before the WC. The trained ones don't succeed....why risk with the untrained ones.
You are right, with WC in mind we should not try newbies. If the WC was not so close then it could be an option to give prospects an exposure. But again fast bowlers are generally injury prone. We cannot tell how our pacers will be health-wise as WC nears. Now Nazmul can be a very good replacement after the 3 mainstream pacers. But it is home condition and generally pacers shine in their early careers if not very special like Mcgrath, Pollok, W's, Vaas.
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Last edited by One World; December 3, 2010 at 01:34 PM..
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  #9  
Old December 3, 2010, 01:43 PM
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Raynman Raynman is offline
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question is, if it were up to Pont, would he pick Mash in the XI.

It maybe more of a selection of Mash than Pont at this moment. Rubel, Nazmul and Shafiul all showed good death over bowling skills in the NZ series.

Shafiul may have had a chance yesterday if Razzak and Shakib didn't clean up at the end.

I think Mash's presence makes it difficult for Shakib to give the ball back to Shafiul as it might be taken the wrong way.
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  #10  
Old December 3, 2010, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynman
question is, if it were up to Pont, would he pick Mash in the XI.
Nobody wants Mash in the team with his current condition. That’s why he is a not a good sample to judge Pont’s effect. But Shafiul and Shahdat are and they both sucked in the respectable matches I mentioned in my original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynman
Shafiul may have had a chance yesterday if Razzak and Shakib didn't clean up at the end.
I don't think Shafiul would've gotten any more wickets even if he got the chance to bowl. Because he wasn't using his common sense. Instead of bowling in the block hole, he was either bowling short or length ball. Remember his first over of the 2nd spell, he started off with 2 balls on the toe of the batsman and then he followed that up with a short one and got hit for a 4. With his pace on a slow pitch like that he has no chance of surprising the batsman. He kept bowling the same way so Shakib had to take him off after 2 overs.
On these wickets margin or error is very little, either be very fast or be accurate. Even a bowler like Styen speaks of how important it is to bowl on the block hole in the subcontinent, especially toward the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynman
I think Mash's presence makes it difficult for Shakib to give the ball back to Shafiul as it might be taken the wrong way.
I didn’t think Shakib would’ve felt obligated to give Mash a second chance after his outburst in the press conference. Now that the cat is out, I don’t think he cares about what any body feels anymore. But what a waste of a spot in the team? Mash’s only contribution in the whole match was 3 overs of agony…..this is just painful to watch. He should just make himself unavailable to save his face and not follow Ash’s footsteps.
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  #11  
Old December 3, 2010, 03:12 PM
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^^ I'm not sure if you and I are actually contradicting each other in any way.

It all goes back to the think tank picking players and then figuring out what to do with them instead of picking best available players by role in the team.

The only thing is that I didn't think Shafiul's bowling was that poor. Taylor played some lovely shots and found gaps. He was varying up the speed and trying things and the slow ball did get him the edge for the first wicket.

But Mash appears lost and now probably seperated from the team with his buddy Ash sidelined.
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  #12  
Old December 3, 2010, 03:36 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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I think ur underestimating how decently Shafi bowled in the few overs he got. I didn't see his 2nd spell ask stepped out for an hour, but he did take the wicket and bowled fairly well I his first spell.

If zim wasn't so inept at playing spin, he would have gotten more overs. Mash needs to be dropped for rubel and should not have played this series. He is still recovering from his injury and is afraid to bowl all out.
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  #13  
Old December 3, 2010, 03:47 PM
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Play Rubel and Shafiul in the same game, watch what happens. There needs to be a good bonding between the opening bowlers from both end, which Shafi and Rafe don't have. But Rubel and Shafi does. Shafiul wasn't as good as last series mainly because he is not getting the help from the other end
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  #14  
Old December 4, 2010, 10:53 AM
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The bowlers have been coached day in and day out on where to bowl the ball and at what times to bowl them if you listen to Pont. A coach however cannot bowl for a bowler, which is what Pont has said on his Face Book page.

Why are we judging the COACH when we should be judging the player? If the bowlers do not know where to bowl or how to bowl balls then the coach is at fault. But Pont is an expert in coaching so it is up to our bowlers to learn from him and go out and do it?

You can only judge a coach on what he coaches......
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  #15  
Old December 4, 2010, 02:04 PM
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Wait till the world-cup to judge Pont. If you guys can give Siddons 2/3 years to change our batsmen then why can't this guy get 6 months?

Shafiul is not reliable anymore. He is becoming very expensive.

Nazmul should've played in the first two games with Mash. Mash is not getting any chances either. Only 3 overs in the 2nd game. This is becoming another 2009.

Shakib needs to realize this is Zimbabwe not Australia. He can give few more overs to Mash during the middle overs to see how he bowls. Seems like they are too scared against Zimbabwe. We can't bowl all spinners against India, SA, WI and England.
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  #16  
Old December 4, 2010, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murad
Wait till the world-cup to judge Pont. If you guys can give Siddons 2/3 years to change our batsmen then why can't this guy get 6 months?

Shafiul is not reliable anymore. He is becoming very expensive.

Nazmul should've played in the first two games with Mash. Mash is not getting any chances either. Only 3 overs in the 2nd game. This is becoming another 2009.

Shakib needs to realize this is Zimbabwe not Australia. He can give few more overs to Mash during the middle overs to see how he bowls. Seems like they are too scared against Zimbabwe. We can't bowl all spinners against India, SA, WI and England.
The whole point of bringing Pont in is to give a BETTER performance in WC. Whats the point if we have to wait till WC and we flop there? Keeping him or kicking him wont do jack if we get kicked out of WC from first round.

I thought Shafiul was always like this..but he can take wickets.
Rubel should be in the team with him.

Shakib did the best thing by not letting Mash bowl. Since he is low in confidence, if ZIM thrash him out of the park...he's confidence level will go zero. Besides if we LOSE against ZIM..THE WHOLE TEAM'S CONFIDENCE LEVEL WILL GO DOWN. WE SHOULD GO TO WC STRONG. MASH SHOULD VOLUNTARILY TAKE REST for the best and maybe come back later with improved performance.
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  #17  
Old March 21, 2011, 08:03 AM
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As earlier coach mentioned, Shafiul did not deliver that...it's upto the bowler to deliver and you also have to understand his age and maturity (he is only 21). He took the responsibility of openning the bowling in absence of Mashrafee. So, please understand the situation and we look forward for improvement in the future.
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  #18  
Old March 21, 2011, 08:03 AM
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Bangladesh bowling is not the issue, the main issue is our Batting.
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  #19  
Old March 21, 2011, 09:01 AM
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I am not even sure if this is the right thread, forgive me if not.

First of all i need to clarify, i have very high regards to all of BD's national coaches and it speaks volume about Ian that he takes time off his busy schedule to answer questions and share opinions here.

On the topic, as Mr. Pont pointed out, I think the same thing applies to JS too, he can only teach the players how to play, application is the batsman's part. I wonder why JS alone gets so much of a brick here in BC .

You can only take the horse to the water, you cannot make it drink !

As long as we keep blaming our coaches for everything, we are not going to see much of an improvement. Coaches and players should get equal Credits and Criticisms IMO.

I did not see the fans praising JS for Shafiul's batting in the Eng game. Well may be he would have been a better coach if JS was registered in BC answering our questions.

Its afterall a game and BD cricket is evolving, some years down the line, the fans will have to look back at the contribution of all these coaches and support staff. Everyone of them is contributing to the team's foundation here.

Its painful some fans choose to blame the coaches for everything.

Cheers !
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Old March 21, 2011, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padosan
I am not even sure if this is the right thread, forgive me if not.

First of all i need to clarify, i have very high regards to all of BD's national coaches and it speaks volume about Ian that he takes time off his busy schedule to answer questions and share opinions here.

On the topic, as Mr. Pont pointed out, I think the same thing applies to JS too, he can only teach the players how to play, application is the batsman's part. I wonder why JS alone gets so much of a brick here in BC .

You can only take the horse to the water, you cannot make it drink !

As long as we keep blaming our coaches for everything, we are not going to see much of an improvement. Coaches and players should get equal Credits and Criticisms IMO.

I did not see the fans praising JS for Shafiul's batting in the Eng game. Well may be he would have been a better coach if JS was registered in BC answering our questions.

Its afterall a game and BD cricket is evolving, some years down the line, the fans will have to look back at the contribution of all these coaches and support staff. Everyone of them is contributing to the team's foundation here.

Its painful some fans choose to blame the coaches for everything.

Cheers !
Padosan

100% agreed. A coach can teach techniques only.....unfortunately they cannot play the game for us in the field. Well your teacher teaches u everything and u also understand what he teaches but in the exam u can't write anything on the exam paper.......is it the teacher's fault?

Guys please grow up and blame the right person(s) for the failure......get over the allergies u have about Jamie Siddons.
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  #21  
Old March 21, 2011, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nura43
100% agreed. A coach can teach techniques only.....unfortunately they cannot play the game for us in the field. Well your teacher teaches u everything and u also understand what he teaches but in the exam u can't write anything on the exam paper.......is it the teacher's fault?

Guys please grow up and blame the right person(s) for the failure......get over the allergies u have about Jamie Siddons.
people tend to be understanding of what Ian is saying and generally supportive. My question is if Siddons said the same things about or batsmen, would the people receive it the same as Ian saying it?

there is a lot of mindless and unimformed siddons bashing. everyone thinks they know better because they can create awesoem excel spreadsheets and give stats. you are not there in flesh and blood, stop giving coaches a hard time.

having said that, everyones entitled to their opinion....
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  #22  
Old March 22, 2011, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deshprem
people tend to be understanding of what Ian is saying and generally supportive. My question is if Siddons said the same things about or batsmen, would the people receive it the same as Ian saying it?

there is a lot of mindless and unimformed siddons bashing. everyone thinks they know better because they can create awesoem excel spreadsheets and give stats. you are not there in flesh and blood, stop giving coaches a hard time.

having said that, everyones entitled to their opinion....
People give support to Ian cause he is new. Someone new should get some time before his deeds are justified. Siddons also had that period. But after 4 years of time you cannot expect to be treated the same way.
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  #23  
Old March 22, 2011, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarWolf
People give support to Ian cause he is new. Someone new should get some time before his deeds are justified. Siddons also had that period. But after 4 years of time you cannot expect to be treated the same way.
well if Ian and Julien are going to stay for the long haul- guys you know what to expect!

coaches- if you don't produce the right stats, this forum is full of geniouses that can coach better than you.

siddons has produced some of our best players- tamim and shakib. what ian says is tru- 'the desire to learn' these two have something in common- they have the desire and the commitment. with the right coaching, they have produced results.

occasionally we have seen brilliances from others too- imrul kayes, siddique, rakibul, mushy, riyad, not to mention shafiul and rubel.

all this shows is the players in our team all develope at different rates. if anything our teams has moved forward however fast or slow...due to certain players. our team has not gone backwards.
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  #24  
Old March 21, 2011, 09:49 AM
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shafiul wasn't confident enough to bowl it even once?even against netherlands?what's the worst it could have been?it would have ben a no ball and hit for a 6?well,he did get hit for a few 6s anyways
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  #25  
Old March 21, 2011, 10:01 AM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamisa
shafiul wasn't confident enough to bowl it even once?even against netherlands?what's the worst it could have been?it would have ben a no ball and hit for a 6?well,he did get hit for a few 6s anyways
Yes Lamisa... he wasn't confident in a WC match to get it wrong. It can end up as a beamer by mistake then he would be in trouble. If you are not absolutely 100% certain of yourself then don't do it. I don't see that as a problem personally, but rather quite responsible. This is the WC and not some friendly match played at the local park.

I note you tend to be quite a negative poster having seen some of your comments before. So let me say I back Shafiul 100% and predict that he will develop into one of BD best quick bowlers.

Sometimes you have to understand cricket a bit more to realise what is going on.
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