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  #1  
Old March 8, 2011, 06:03 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Default Lost Faith in Israel

source link: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...124-1a2yc.html

seems like the Palestinian Authority has been bending over backwards to reach a settlement, but the Israelis are not cooperating.

very disappointed, and have lost the faith i've had in Israel over the past decade.
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  #2  
Old March 8, 2011, 09:43 PM
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Palestinians land and their freedom are like a birthday cake.

Israel are taking bites out of the chocolate cake, they want all of it, they are doing it in full view of the whole party (the world)

But the world is not doing anything, theyre not saying anything.

So if you were in Israel's shoes, and you're taking bites out of someone's cake, and you're getting away with it, with no consequences. With some people even saying its yours to eat, wouldnt you just carry on eating.
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Old March 9, 2011, 10:09 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO5Cay6GUkM
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  #4  
Old March 9, 2011, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
Palestinians land and their freedom are like a birthday cake.

Israel are taking bites out of the chocolate cake, they want all of it, they are doing it in full view of the whole party (the world)

But the world is not doing anything, theyre not saying anything.

So if you were in Israel's shoes, and you're taking bites out of someone's cake, and you're getting away with it, with no consequences. With some people even saying its yours to eat, wouldnt you just carry on eating.
probably the best analogy i've heard on this issue ever. i'm definitely stealing it, Nafi bhai.
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Old March 9, 2011, 02:27 PM
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The fact that you HAD faith in the State of Israel to begin with is quite romantic, indeed.
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  #6  
Old March 9, 2011, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BanCricFan
The fact that you HAD faith in the State of Israel to begin with is quite romantic, indeed.
everyone deserves benefit of the doubt...and minus this revelation, there really wasn't a whole lot of faith you could put on the PA as one Israeli official once said "the palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity". it now appears as though the israelis never gave any opportunities for the palestinians to miss out on to begin with.

i never condoned any of the grevious war crimes committed by the Israeli army or their illegal settlements. but i did, and do, think that non-Zionist jews have as much right to a homeland in Palestine as Palestinians do.
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  #7  
Old August 1, 2012, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
think that non-Zionist jews have as much right to a homeland in Palestine as Palestinians do.
But, the land doesn't belong to the Israelis. It belongs to the country of Palestine. The British and Americans occupied large part of Palestine and have gifted it to Israel
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  #8  
Old August 1, 2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Crisis
But, the land doesn't belong to the Israelis. It belongs to the country of Palestine. The British and Americans occupied large part of Palestine and have gifted it to Israel
Erm.."country" of Palestine? Methinks, someone needs to re-read his history book.
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  #9  
Old March 9, 2011, 07:35 PM
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As I write there is an Indian Raga playing out in Late Junction. Radio 3 seems to be featuring digestable bites of Indian classical music rather a lot this late in the evening. A Nigerian friend off mine recently told me how much he has grown to love Indian classical music having shared a flat with an Indian student for a while. I found it strange that this sort of music appealed to his more accustomed to rhythms far more defined. Then I remembered, a friend of mine Ellen who had lives in an Islamic country during her teenage years found the sound of 'azan' so very theraputic. Apparently, she felt a spiritual connection with the 'muazzin' lying in bed listening to the dawn call to prayer. Some 'things' have a universal appeal. Lack of exposure is the only barrier to appreciation. Peace is not an idealised abstract noun. The problem is that is comes wrapped in historical religious differences between the Jews and Muslims.

The conflict actually is two pronged. There is a religious aspect to it and then there is the simple materialistic desire to own land. Legitimacy to that land ownership is played out on religious grounds. I believe that religion is used by the extremists on both sides to continue this long running dispute. Generations have grown up distrusting each other. I have often noticed a deep sense of hostility amongst the young generation of Muslims (at the age of 35 I don't consider myself young any more) towards Jews. This hatred makes the Jewish extremist stronger and keeps the moderates from getting to know the moderate Muslims. Somewhere along the line both parties need to leave religion and guns at the door and engage in peaceful dialogue as fellow human beings. There needs to be cultural dialogue with the Jewish nation. Perhaps, some form of recognition of Israel's right to exist could be a starting point. Once there is cultural exchange on both sides a sense of deeper understanding should follow.

You are young. Don't give up hope.
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  #10  
Old March 9, 2011, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
As I write there is an Indian Raga playing out in Late Junction. Radio 3 seems to be featuring digestable bites of Indian classical music rather a lot this late in the evening. A Nigerian friend off mine recently told me how much he has grown to love Indian classical music having shared a flat with an Indian student for a while. I found it strange that this sort of music appealed to his more accustomed to rhythms far more defined. Then I remembered, a friend of mine Ellen who had lives in an Islamic country during her teenage years found the sound of 'azan' so very theraputic. Apparently, she felt a spiritual connection with the 'muazzin' lying in bed listening to the dawn call to prayer. Some 'things' have a universal appeal. Lack of exposure is the only barrier to appreciation. Peace is not an idealised abstract noun. The problem is that is comes wrapped in historical religious differences between the Jews and Muslims.

The conflict actually is two pronged. There is a religious aspect to it and then there is the simple materialistic desire to own land. Legitimacy to that land ownership is played out on religious grounds. I believe that religion is used by the extremists on both sides to continue this long running dispute. Generations have grown up distrusting each other. I have often noticed a deep sense of hostility amongst the young generation of Muslims (at the age of 35 I don't consider myself young any more) towards Jews. This hatred makes the Jewish extremist stronger and keeps the moderates from getting to know the moderate Muslims. Somewhere along the line both parties need to leave religion and guns at the door and engage in peaceful dialogue as fellow human beings. There needs to be cultural dialogue with the Jewish nation. Perhaps, some form of recognition of Israel's right to exist could be a starting point. Once there is cultural exchange on both sides a sense of deeper understanding should follow.

You are young. Don't give up hope.
Compromise, by definition, is something that is supposed to be difficult. Ariel Sharon mentioned "painful sacrifices" or something along those lines. I think even Netanyahu reiterated the same position although his actions contradict those words. Extremists will always exist, they have to be ignored no matter how loud and prominent they might be. And extremism of people en masse is always fueled by conflict. Right now, maybe 75% or more of Gazans support Hamas. But if a real peace deal was achieved, or if Israel showed a willingness to engage in honest dialogue, I doubt if even 10% of Gazans would care much for what Hamas thinks about Israel. Hamas will always exist; Israel is merely an excuse for its being. But its the people that count, and Palestinians are not very different from the vast majority of Israelis.

The Palestinian Authority, the official and accepted representatives of their people, have agreed to accept Israel. Yet the impasses continue. There seems to be no motivation from the Israeli side to attain a peaceable agreement. They have security, strength, prosperity, and international backing already. What more could peace bring?
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  #11  
Old May 19, 2011, 08:29 PM
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And Netanyahu lives up to his rep by discounting Obama's new initiative. The real test will be can the US twist some arms here or not? My guess is not.
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  #12  
Old May 19, 2011, 08:59 PM
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Truth is Netanyahu is nothing, he is just a stooge for powerful right-wing Israeiis.

If you look at his cabinet he has worst radicals who help him to get into power in last election. People like Avigdor Lieberman who is probably more radical for average Israeli's liking. Ehud Barak fares no better. Then there is Eli Yishai the interior minister known for his racist (hates anyone non-jews ie goyim) rants onces in a while.

Netanyahoo's job is to find a middle path, one where he has to appease these hardliners while at the same time avoid confrontation with Obama. So far he has managed both successfully though with some difficulty.

Obama was never serious about peace in Mid-East. He is one of those presidents too occupied with domestic problems to worry about what happens half the world away. Once in a while he throws his inspiring speeches and then sends his incompetent envoys to handle the crisis.

Even if Obama was serious about it, he would have to bypass the AIPAC and senate, a near impossible task.

Israel does not want peace, because under a peace agreement they can't go annexing more territories of a sovereign internationally recognised Palestine. They prefer the status quo, or Netanyahu does at least. It would mean end to the billion+ dollar aid as well as Israel would be finally "secure".
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  #13  
Old May 19, 2011, 10:07 PM
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u had faith in israel!!!!
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  #14  
Old May 20, 2011, 02:45 AM
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How can you lose faith, when you shouldn't of had faith in the first place. You can't even go Israel on a Bangadeshi passport.
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  #15  
Old May 20, 2011, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglaguy
How can you lose faith, when you shouldn't of had faith in the first place. You can't even go Israel on a Bangadeshi passport.
Not all of us are restricted to a Bangladeshi passport. I've been to Israel...great place, with great people, who on the whole are a lot less hateful than you would think.

You have millions in Bangladesh who probably can't spell Israel, but froth at the mouth at the mere mention of the name.

I blame the impasse not on Israel, but on the Palestinians and the Arabs as a whole. Look back to what Israel was when it was created and what it is today, you take away the pathetic attempts to wipe 'Israel off the map' and there would already be a viable Palestinian state co-existing side by side.

You can't spring war on a nation, declare you don't accept its right to exist, and then when you get your collective *** kicked then complain about the victors taking the spoils of war.

Obama is not the 1st US Prez is mention the 1967 borders, land swaps, and a continuous Palestinian state(Dubya) said the same thing, yet the Palestinians with no bargaining chips of their own, with no influence refuse to accept. I truly believe in the principle of beggers can't be choosers.

Hamas needs to come out and say, Israel has a right to exist without any ambiguity as it is today(a Jewish State), and that it no longer seeks to destroy it, while taking concrete steps to prove that it is not seeking to destroy it.

The Palestinians need to accept, there will never be a right of return, the Israelis will not allow millions of muslims to come back, that would threaten the very existence of their nation(I don't care about the rights/wrongs of the issue), the fact remains it will not happen.

They need to tell the Israelis we will concede this, and you concede the outpost settlements, and equitable land swaps for the heavily populated ones. That leaves only the issue of Jerusalem to question....if neither side will give up to the other on this issue, then declare Jerusalem an international city. Have it under the control of the UN, policed by the UN.

No one gives a toss about the Palestinians, your average arab hates them, and considers them to be petty thieves and scum, yet their governments use the poor Palestinians to breed hate against Israel, all the while doing nothing to change the status quo.
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  #16  
Old May 20, 2011, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
Not all of us are restricted to a Bangladeshi passport. I've been to Israel...great place, with great people, who on the whole are a lot less hateful than you would think.

You have millions in Bangladesh who probably can't spell Israel, but froth at the mouth at the mere mention of the name.

I blame the impasse not on Israel, but on the Palestinians and the Arabs as a whole. Look back to what Israel was when it was created and what it is today, you take away the pathetic attempts to wipe 'Israel off the map' and there would already be a viable Palestinian state co-existing side by side.

You can't spring war on a nation, declare you don't accept its right to exist, and then when you get your collective *** kicked then complain about the victors taking the spoils of war.

Obama is not the 1st US Prez is mention the 1967 borders, land swaps, and a continuous Palestinian state(Dubya) said the same thing, yet the Palestinians with no bargaining chips of their own, with no influence refuse to accept. I truly believe in the principle of beggers can't be choosers.

Hamas needs to come out and say, Israel has a right to exist without any ambiguity as it is today(a Jewish State), and that it no longer seeks to destroy it, while taking concrete steps to prove that it is not seeking to destroy it.

The Palestinians need to accept, there will never be a right of return, the Israelis will not allow millions of muslims to come back, that would threaten the very existence of their nation(I don't care about the rights/wrongs of the issue), the fact remains it will not happen.

They need to tell the Israelis we will concede this, and you concede the outpost settlements, and equitable land swaps for the heavily populated ones. That leaves only the issue of Jerusalem to question....if neither side will give up to the other on this issue, then declare Jerusalem an international city. Have it under the control of the UN, policed by the UN.

No one gives a toss about the Palestinians, your average arab hates them, and considers them to be petty thieves and scum, yet their governments use the poor Palestinians to breed hate against Israel, all the while doing nothing to change the status quo.
Is this Salah Choudhury by any chance?
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Old May 20, 2011, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien
Is this Salah Choudhury by any chance?
Yeah...because I refuse to conform to the idiotic mantra that all Israelis are Zionist scum.

Which to me sounds awfully similar to "all muslims are jihadi terrorists".

How about you refute what I've said....
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Old May 20, 2011, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
Yeah...because I refuse to conform to the idiotic mantra that all Israelis are Zionist scum.

Which to me sounds awfully similar to "all muslims are jihadi terrorists".

How about you refute what I've said....
Well no one here said they are zionist scums. If you look at the title of the thread, the thread started had some hope with Israel to begin with and was disappointed.

Criticizing Israel does not necessarily mean referring them to as Zionist scum.
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Old May 20, 2011, 03:23 AM
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F6 - you pretty much have summed up dispassionately the facts on the ground as it truly exists. Be prepared for the stone throwers (pun intended). The Palestinians in general do have to give up on the right of return and the Hamas and others of that ilk do need to recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel on the other hand does need to let go of parts if Jerusalem and withdraw from most of the settlements it has built in the West Bank to cement their facts on the ground.

Both parties need to compromise. The Palestinians cannot because they are being used by the Arabs. The Israelis will not because of the unqualified US support driven in part by right-wing religious republicans who see biblical promised land. I am surprised that Obama went as far as he did - and that too in this election cycle.
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Old May 20, 2011, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
F6 - you pretty much have summed up dispassionately the facts on the ground as it truly exists. Be prepared for the stone throwers (pun intended). The Palestinians in general do have to give up on the right of return and the Hamas and others of that ilk do need to recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel on the other hand does need to let go of parts if Jerusalem and withdraw from most of the settlements it has built in the West Bank to cement their facts on the ground.

Both parties need to compromised. The Palestinians cannot because they are being used by the Arabs. The Israelis will not because of the unqualified US support driven in part by right-wing religious republicans who see biblical promised land. I am surprised that Obama went as far as he did - and that too in this election cycle.
The stone throwers with all due respect, can go do one.

As for Obama, he speaks infront of AIPAC in a few days, don't worry he'll be singing a different tune infront of them.

I honestly believe in this current situation, the 1st move has to be made by the Palestinians and Arabs.

They all need to come out and unconditionally say,

"We recognize the State of Israel, we recognize its right to exist as a legitimate nation-state"

Not only does it take away another stick for Israel to beat them with, but also places pressure on Israel to then reciprocate that gesture.

As for peace, and compromise, I actually think they are both very very close(Arafat should have sealed the deal...what a fool). The bible thumping retards might not want Israel to 'give away' anything, but that is not what the people of Israel feel.
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Old May 20, 2011, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
I honestly believe in this current situation, the 1st move has to be made by the Palestinians and Arabs.

They all need to come out and unconditionally say,

"We recognize the State of Israel, we recognize its right to exist as a legitimate nation-state"

What move are they supposed to make? PA recongises Israel. Hamas can be made to recongise Israel via referendum. Hamas said it clearly many times, while they do not recognise Israel, they will do so if it is approved by Palestinian referendum and if its within 1967 border.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...249568,00.html

Now can Israel be made to give up Golan Heights and East Jerusalem and most of those territories?

So here is a country, that does not want to give up land it occupied wrongfully (1967 border), does not cease settlement activity, does not want to share Jerusalem.

As for Hamas, when they rightfully won the election 5 years ago, Israel and US jumped in and didn't accept the result. Now why should Hamas be all that caring and recognise Israel unconditionally? They got treated like dirt first time.

Quote:
As for peace, and compromise, I actually think they are both very very close(Arafat should have sealed the deal...what a fool). The bible thumping retards might not want Israel to 'give away' anything, but that is not what the people of Israel feel.
The bible thumping whatever are the right wing political parties of Israel. Today they are in power. People like Avigdor Lieberman & Eli Yishai who are hated in Israel for their extreme views holds key important posts (foreign and interior ministry). The ultra-right wing Yisrael Beiteinu party was responsible for the current coalition that runs Israel today.

Not to mention the rich Evangelicals up in US + AIPAC pulling the triggers.

Regardless what average Israelis think when it comes to voting time, they vote for these right wing fascists whose only mission in life is to create Greater Biblical Israel not one with secured defined borders with normalised relation with Arab world.

Hence the settlement issue.
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Old May 22, 2011, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
Hamas and others of that ilk do need to recognize Israel's right to exist.
Hamas maybe an extremist but is one of those breed that can be reasoned with (unlike AQ). Like I said they can be made to recognise Israel if they withdraw to 1967 line and/or via referendum. Problem is it is Israel that never ever bothered to reach out to Hamas. By straight away rejecting Hamas after it won the election 5 years ago, Israel made the biggest blunder. And now they are making another one by refusing to deal with Hamas-Fatah government.

Hamas will not go away and Fatah doesn't have the power or means (or Israel for that matter) to evict Hamas. Hence Hamas is there to stay, just like its other half in West Bank.

Any peace deal that will create a Palestinian state will include Gaza. Since it will include Gaza, Hamas will have to be part of this peace process. So Israel will have to sooner or later deal with Hamas when (if at all) it seriously pushes for a peace deal.

Hamas has nothing to give to Israel aside from recognition and laying down of arms. Israel has plenty to give out and start reaching out to Hamas. Maybe start off by recognizing Hamas' right in Gaza, lift the sea blockade and vacate a the smallest nearby settlement or something and see how Hamas reciprocates to that.

What I said is not rocket science and Israel's cynical leaders are well aware of it. If they really want peace, Hamas has to be included, if they don't all they have to do is make sure Hamas doesnt change its radical face so that will give the the life long excuse to maintain the status quo.

That is what Netanyahu wants, the status quo. This Hamas-Fatah reconciliation was his dream come true. Because now he can simply (and he did) go to Obama and tell the usual: Hamas is a terrorist organization, they do not recognize us, we will not deal with Hamas, negotiations are over".

What Is Israel supposed to get out of a pace deal? Nothing. They are secured, they have beaten Arabs 6 times. They have nukes + worlds most efficient military. No one will dare to attack Israel and no one has since Yom Kippur back in 70s. They don't need any of these Arab countries, they survived 63 years (and counting) without them. Their economic interest lies with Europe and US.

Hence there is absolutely nothing to be gained from Israeli perspective. A Palestinian state will completely stall all settlement activity, and pose a serious risk for Jerusalem to be split. Under the status quo, Israel gets to keep the whole lot. Netanyahu will literally be crucified by kippah wearing fanatics in Israel for sharing an inch of Jerusalem.

Its easy to blame Palestinians for all short coming after all they don't have mighty US or guilty Europe or anyone to stick up for them.
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  #23  
Old May 20, 2011, 04:41 AM
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Why does there need to be a referendum for the recognition of Israel? I find the entire exercise to be hilarious.

Hamas are a political entity, they should be setting the agenda, and as I said, it needs to be done unconditionally. The issue of borders can be settled once we move past the core issue.

You correctly cite the illegal occupation, but you completely ignore how the Golan and East Jerusalem came under Israeli control. Not to mention, the Golan Heights is an issue for Syria and Israel to sort out...

As far as the treatment of Hamas is concerned, what planet do you live on? Of course they were dealt with harshly and not given a fair go, this is the real world we live in, you almost sound like you believe that the US is a beacon for democracy and freedom like it claims. You must have missed the fine print, it states, we stand for those things, so long as they suit us. It is just politics.

We now move on to the Israeli right wing, they've always been influential, especially with the Orthodox Jews, but like in all nations across the world, when do extremists prosper? When the moderates fail to take advantage of opportunities given to them. The PLO being incompetent led to the electoral rise of Hamas, and the same for the Israeli factions.

The right wing parties have played the role of King maker in recent times, but they are not the choice of the people at large...

Despite what AIPAC, Fox News, and US Senators indebted to the Jewish lobby might say, I still believe peace and compromise are only a couple of brave moves away.

As I said in my 1st post, everyone wants to go back to the 1967 borders, for Palestine to have East Jerusalem, for Syria to get back the Golan heights...funny thing is, if the collective 'might' - hahhaa.... of the Arab nations hadn't gone to war, the futility of the last 40+ years could have been avoided.

The Arabs and Palestinians speak of peace and recognition, and you speak of Zionist Imperialism, yet if the Arabs had not gone to war in 67, this discussion wouldn't be happening today.

I am not an Israeli apologist, the thousands of civilians the Israeli forces have killed(including children) is horrendous, they have in cahoots with the media managed to dehumanize the Palestinians to such an extent, most people don't even bat an eyelid at the death of Palestinians any longer.

But I cannot ignore the Arab stupidity and criminality at the same time. The State of Israel that the West created was half this size...who is to blame for the doubling of its size?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien
Well no one here said they are zionist scums. If you look at the title of the thread, the thread started had some hope with Israel to begin with and was disappointed.

Criticizing Israel does not necessarily mean referring them to as Zionist scum.
No but you slandering me by saying I sounded like Salah Choudhury, implies that I am an Israeli apologist, and only those on the opposite end of the spectrum have an opinion worthy of consideration.
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  #24  
Old May 20, 2011, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
Why does there need to be a referendum for the recognition of Israel? I find the entire exercise to be hilarious.


Hamas are a political entity, they should be setting the agenda, and as I said, it needs to be done unconditionally. The issue of borders can be settled once we move past the core issue.
Whats wrong with referendum? Many Palestinians dont recognise Israel many does. Only way to get a common consensus is to do a referendum. No harm in it if it helps convince Hamas.

Before you say why do many Palestinians refuse to recognise Israel, many (revisionist) Israelis refuse to recognise the fact that Palestinians lived in the land since the time of Jesus.


Quote:
You correctly cite the illegal occupation, but you completely ignore how the Golan and East Jerusalem came under Israeli control. Not to mention, the Golan Heights is an issue for Syria and Israel to sort out...
Yes but its not just peace with Palestinians but rather peace with entire Arab world. When you see and hear about "Arab Peace Initiative" its sort of pan-Arab approach. You can't see it as one-vs-one issue, but regional. The countries bordering Israel are all involved in the conflict not just Palestinians.

Quote:
As far as the treatment of Hamas is concerned, what planet do you live on? Of course they were dealt with harshly and not given a fair go, this is the real world we live in, you almost sound like you believe that the US is a beacon for democracy and freedom like it claims. You must have missed the fine print, it states, we stand for those things, so long as they suit us. It is just politics.
Well there you go. No one complains when Israelis elect racist morons like last time yet everyone has issues when Palestinians do the same.

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The Arabs and Palestinians speak of peace and recognition, and you speak of Zionist Imperialism, yet if the Arabs had not gone to war in 67, this discussion wouldn't be happening today.
Arab's didn't go to war, Israel attacked first in 1967 unlike other wars. Hence all that was gained wasn't internationally recognised.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...y_war_1967.htm


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I am not an Israeli apologist, the thousands of civilians the Israeli forces have killed(including children) is horrendous, they have in cahoots with the media managed to dehumanize the Palestinians to such an extent, most people don't even bat an eyelid at the death of Palestinians any longer.

But I cannot ignore the Arab stupidity and criminality at the same time. The State of Israel that the West created was half this size...who is to blame for the doubling of its size?


No but you slandering me by saying I sounded like Salah Choudhury, implies that I am an Israeli apologist, and only those on the opposite end of the spectrum have an opinion worthy of consideration.
My apologies about the Salah Choudhury comment. You are not Israel apologist and raise some good points. But have to realise that right now the ball is in Israel's court. There is nothing to negotiate really, all options have already been declared. Israel has now 2 choices:

1) Maintain the status-quo. Slowly get rid of Arabs from East Jeruslem, keep annexing parts of West Bank into settlements, maintain hostile relations.

This is precise what Netanyahu wants. Last thing he wants is to go down in Jewish history as the traitor who sold the land to Arabs instead of building the biblical kingdom of David via settlements. Not to mention that racist duo in his party will crucify him.

That is why he makes all these pathetic proposals like setting up a temporary Palestinian state immediately on 40% of West Bank or asking Palestinians to recognise Israel as "state of the Jewish people" when its not up to them to define what Israel is.

2) Go back to 1967 border, not just Hamas but entire Arab world will have no choice but to recognise Israel as the key demand is met.
Unfortunately this will never happen.

Last edited by Alien; May 20, 2011 at 10:18 AM..
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Old May 20, 2011, 06:42 AM
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Isnaad Isnaad is offline
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I never had faith in Israel. Its one country I really, for some reason, don't find friendly. And definitely I mean the government. Not the people of Israel....
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