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  #1  
Old August 13, 2004, 09:43 AM
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Default Gulf between U-19 and senior national players

There are different stages that a player goes through before he becomes a senior national player. These stages are:

(i)First class
(ii)National A
(iii)Senior National

The gulf between any two consecutive stages is huge and the drop out rate between two stages is considerable. assuming an arbitrary ratio of 5:1 between two stages,it follows that out of 500 first class level cricketers, 100 will be good enough for National A level and out of these 100 national A level players, 20 will be good enough for senior national level. What it means is that we can have a pool of 20 national level players if we have a pool of 100 national A level players and 500 first class level players.

First class level players come from age group levels. Even there it can be safely assumed that not all age group players will successfully graduate to the first class level. We may assume that 2500 age group players are needed to have a pool of 500 first class players.

Some of the best U-19 players qualify to play at the national U-19 level. National U-19 level is a level somewhat below the senior first class level.To simplify matters, we may assume it to be equivalent to first class level. With that, we can conclude that out of 25 players that represent the national U-19 team, 5 will succeed at the national A level and only one of them will succeed at the senior national level after playing in the national A level.

The above simplistic arithmetic gives us an idea of what it takes to have a competitive national level pool of players. It gives us an explanation for the failures of many promising youngsters at the highest level.

It is not uncommon in this site to find fans going over the moon when some national U-19 players do well in the U-19 matches.No time is lost in suggesting that these players are better than some of the senior national players and they should be included in the senior national side. When a few of them are actually selected to play for the senior national team, they more often than not fail to make the grade in the senior matches.

The reasons for it are not too far to seek. As discussed earlier, U-19 national players are at best equivalent to senior first class level and as we have seen above, only one out of 25 players who plays for U-19 national team is likely to suceed at the senior national level and that too after he has succeeded at the national A level first. For an U-19 player, the next logical step to progress is national A level and from there to the senior national level.

In effect, including an U-19 national player to the senior national team is equivalent to promoting an undergraduate course student directly to post graduate course bypassing the graduate course. As can be imagined, only very few such as Albert Einstein ( or sachin Tendulkar in cricket) can bridge this huge gap successfully.This task is beyond the capability of most U-19 players. This explains why most U-19 players struggle when thrust on the senior side from the U-19 side.

In BD cricket, undergraduates are directly promoted to postgraduate course in absense of a graduate course in offer for them to pursue.

It is in stark contrast to major cricketing nations where players have to first prove themselves in the national A teams before they find place in the senior national team. Playing in the national A team ensures that they acquire the necessary experience which is essential to succeed at the senior national level.

It may be pointed out by some that Irfan Pathan and Farweez Maharoof have been promoted directly from U-19 to the national teams. That is not correct. These two players have played for U-19 as well as their A teams simultaneously before they were finally selected for their national teams. It was their experience of playing in A teams that prepared them for the senior national duty, and not their playing in the U-19 teams as some may incorrectly assume.

England U-19 players will not be rushed to their senior national team the way BD U-19 players are sought to be rushed to their senior national side on the basis of their centuries and double centuries scored in the U-19 matches. These England players will have to prove themselves at the first class level, then at the national A level and then only a few of them will be considered for their senior national team.

The lesson to emerge is that a vibrant national A team is essential to have a competitive senior national team. BD is the only cricketing nation that has totally neglected formation of its national A team and the results are clear. Kenya is wisely concentrating on playing against national A teams and they are clearly showing that they mean business. Their performance against the A teams of India and Pakistan show that they are on target to join the ranks of the top cricket playing nations soon.

[Edited on 13-8-2004 by cricketfan]
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  #2  
Old August 13, 2004, 05:06 PM
IanW IanW is offline
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Thats not the way it works in Australia.

Yes, we have done ' A' tours in the past, but for the overwhelming number of our players, the transition is ...

Club -> State -> National side

Many - but not all - players get talent-spotted, and go to the Academy in Adelaide between Club and State, and quite often players go to England at some point (the Lancashire League was very very important to Shane Warne's career).

If I was in charge of Bangladesh cricket, I'd be on the phone to little towns in Lancashire, saying "We've got a couple of good young kids ... Shahadat is fast, and Aftab Ahmed can bat a bit".

The biggest problem would probably be fixing a visa for them.

Similarly, there are many clubs in Australia that would be happy to take a good young player.

The issue with an A tour is that it's expensive, especially if you want to go somewhere with radically different conditions, and it isnt likely to make money.

On the other hand, going one player at a time allows individual sponsorships ... Banglacricket could probably scrape up fifty quid a week spending money if, say, Aftab Ahmed ended up playing in Lancashire.

Ian Whitchurch
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  #3  
Old August 13, 2004, 05:38 PM
Imtiaz Imtiaz is offline
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Default Ian, you took the word right out of my mouth..

You are absolutely right ! Aftabs and Shahadats of Bangladesh need to play in Lancashire, Staffordshire, Durham leagues. Believe me, they are high-standard leagues. Many a West Indian and Pakistani star started here. Many finished here too ! The rise of Pakistani cricket in the seventies, I believe, was entirely due to their young players getting experience in English conditions.

As the club-pro they will get prominence and hence, experience.

Living in England, I am more than willing to help out these lads in any way I can.
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  #4  
Old August 13, 2004, 11:47 PM
bourny3 bourny3 is offline
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Ian are you Australian. I am. I think that the Bangladesh "A" side should try and get into the state leagues of Another country. They have done it in West Indies i beleive but have they done it anywhere else. Maybe they should try a stronger competition like the NZ state league or the Australian Pura cup. I doubt that they would get into the Australian league but its always worth a try.
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  #5  
Old August 13, 2004, 11:48 PM
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Nasif Nasif is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by bourny3
Ian are you Australian. I am. I think that the Bangladesh "A" side should try and get into the state leagues of Another country. They have done it in West Indies i beleive but have they done it anywhere else. Maybe they should try a stronger competition like the NZ state league or the Australian Pura cup. I doubt that they would get into the Australian league but its always worth a try.
BD-A also played in last years Pakistan league, I think Quadi Azam league.
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  #6  
Old August 14, 2004, 02:08 AM
IanW IanW is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by bourny3
Ian are you Australian. I am. I think that the Bangladesh "A" side should try and get into the state leagues of Another country. They have done it in West Indies i beleive but have they done it anywhere else. Maybe they should try a stronger competition like the NZ state league or the Australian Pura cup. I doubt that they would get into the Australian league but its always worth a try.
That simply wont happen ... the ACT cant even get into the Sheffield Shield (sorry, Pura Cup), let alone a team from another country.

Individual young players, on the other hand ... it could be worth seeing if Tasmania would like to take a player.

But I'd be aiming at club cricket. I understand quite a few of the initial Sri Lankan players earned their spurs playing for Sandringham in Melbourne.

Ian Whitchurch, who is a Skip
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  #7  
Old August 14, 2004, 03:03 AM
bourny3 bourny3 is offline
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Ian are you Australian by the sounds of what your saying you are.
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  #8  
Old August 14, 2004, 03:30 AM
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Did you know that Chacha was an age-group player? I read somewhere that he played for the U-19 National Team, and then for about 6 to 8 years, he could not get into the Natioanal Team.

Then suddenly, when he was around 26/28, he was included in the national team, and has been in the team ever since, given a few matches he was dropped due to off form.
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  #9  
Old August 14, 2004, 06:06 AM
oracle oracle is offline
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Cricketfan. Good discussion. However, disagree with the following.

It is in stark contrast to major cricketing nations where players have to first prove themselves in the national A teams before they find place in the senior national team. Playing in the national A team ensures that they acquire the necessary experience which is essential to succeed at the senior national level.

Look at Flintoff.
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  #10  
Old August 14, 2004, 07:49 PM
Zephaniah Zephaniah is offline
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Flintoff, Tendulkar, Soeib etc didn't come through the ranks. But we're talking about 'still' somewhat test-baby (!) Bangladesh. Playing A team matches are of utter importance and should be looked at with proper care. Bar Australia and South Africa, everyone else are keen to give their talents and fringe players A team match exposure for smooth transformation to international fold.

As some posters suggested playing quality league cricket in Australia and England would help too.
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  #11  
Old August 14, 2004, 08:48 PM
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Cricketfan, great post. I think you have highlighted a very important area.

I disagree somewaht on nitty-gritty specifics. A 5:1 success ratio may be just about accurate, but i think the percentage gets steeper as you go up the pyramid. Ie. success rates between groups/levels might be someting like: 25%->15%->5%

Anyhow, that doesnt take away from the original point.

IanW, the system may be a bit different, but the point is, there are at least 3 levels of qualification. In our system, there is vitually only two. A talent is spotted, he plays in the league for a bit and soon moves into the national team. This is surely a bad system and a recipe for many future dissapointments.
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  #12  
Old August 15, 2004, 04:28 AM
IanW IanW is offline
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Default City vs Country

To tie this into the other thread, what about an annual series of City Origin vs Country Origin 2 day games ?

The idea is shamelessly ripped off Rugby League in Australia btw, and it works well in that.

The idea would be that all players who were born in Dhaka would play in one team ("City"), and all players born outside it would be in the other ("Country").

As it's played over 2 days, there is a definite result, but people could see the whole game over a weekend (you could even break it up into 4 50 over sessions, so you see some batting and some bowling on each day - but each side bats only once).

I'd be imagining that Test, U10 etc players would all go into one pool for selection, so national spots would be up for grabs ... I'd guess that everyone would play hard.

The Capital City vs Rest of the Country aspect would probably be good for the media and fans.

I dont know Bangladesh's geography well enough to see who's in Dhaka in who isnt, but you get the idea ...

Ian Whitchurch
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  #13  
Old August 15, 2004, 03:11 PM
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Bangla Mostan Bangla Mostan is offline
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i feel instead of bringing up the junior players to the senior squad..we should use a combination of both senior..(who are in good form) with junior players..that way our younsters can get a fell and maybe tips off the seniors in matches which will not have any significance, in the stastics of their cricket.
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  #14  
Old August 16, 2004, 04:09 AM
bourny3 bourny3 is offline
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I think that the Juniors and Seniors should tour countries together. They will get to know eachother and by the time the juniors come into the senior team they will be great mates.
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  #15  
Old August 16, 2004, 04:10 AM
bourny3 bourny3 is offline
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U19s should play a lot more test series against other U19 teams. The Bangladesh A side should play a lot more as well
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  #16  
Old August 16, 2004, 04:39 PM
IanW IanW is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by bourny3
I think that the Juniors and Seniors should tour countries together. They will get to know eachother and by the time the juniors come into the senior team they will be great mates.
That doubles the cost of the tour. Simply put, the Bangladesh cant afford it.

Ian Whitchurch
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  #17  
Old August 17, 2004, 02:55 AM
bourny3 bourny3 is offline
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Yeah but if the U19s are playing the team that the seniors are playing U19s in the same city but at a different ground then they can stay in the same hotel and all be great mates.
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  #18  
Old August 19, 2004, 12:47 AM
pavel pavel is offline
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What's with "them being mates", we don't need them to be mates, we just need them to play good cricket.

pavs
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  #19  
Old August 19, 2004, 02:46 AM
bourny3 bourny3 is offline
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But if they are mates they will work better as a team. Thats why there called teammates
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