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  #101  
Old August 19, 2008, 01:44 PM
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Salaam.

Al-Qur'an is considered mutawatir (could say 100% authentic) by Islamic scholars. Some ahadith also are considered mutawatir. The Muslims have to follow both the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Obviously, we need not follow the weak narrations (hadith), but are obligated to follow the authentic ones. I am neither inclined nor qualified to start a scholrly discussion on the science of ahadith. Intetested readers may read The Classification Of Hadith 1, The Classification Of Hadith 2, and Various Issues About Hadiths.
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  #102  
Old August 20, 2008, 03:38 PM
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To be a good muslim or not to be...the difference is "Nur", sometimes you got it, sometimes you don't
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  #103  
Old May 12, 2010, 02:41 PM
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this is a great thread
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  #104  
Old May 20, 2010, 10:14 AM
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In reality the biggest myths of Islam are hadiths and tasfir.

They are myths. If you argue they are not, you are unintelligent.
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  #105  
Old June 7, 2010, 12:39 PM
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from http://www.flw.ugent.be/cie/bogaert/bogaert4.htm

Does Qur'anic verse 4:34 "allow a superior husband
to beat his inferior, disobedient wife?"



If ever there has been a controversial verse in the Holy Qur'an, it certainly is verse 4:34. Used by opponents of Islam to label this religion woman-unfriendly (to put it mildly), Muslims themselves are struggling with interpreting it. For yes, let us agree about this: there is no such thing as “the” one and only correct interpretation of the Word of Allah – only Allah knows what He meant. We can only try to understand. And in this particular case, an alternative for the troublesome interpretations of this verse may bring us a bit closer to that objective.

Let us have a look at a (partial) translation of this verse 1:

"Men are the {qawwam} of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are {qanitat}, and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear {nushuz}, admonish them first, then refuse to share their beds, and finally {adriboo} them; but when they {ataa:} to you, then seek not against them means of annoyance: For Allah is Most High, great above you all. "


Disobedient women?


The key word to answer this question is {qanitat}, which is a feminine plural of {qanit}, based on the root {q-n-t}. This word appears on many other occasions in the Holy Qur'an 2, where it is used exclusively in the sense of 'submissive, obedient to Allah'. Verse 4:34 contains no reason at all to depart from this meaning and to change it into 'obedience to a husband'. This verse is about pious women who, just like pious men, are obedient to Allah. And a wife (husband) who is obedient to God, must live up to her (his) marital duties.

Superior husband and inferior wife?

Throughout the Holy Qur'an, Allah emphasizes that men and women are equal for Him – Allah will judge them in exactly the same way 3. So it would be strange indeed if a verse would contradict this equality. But is that really the case here? The Arabic word used is {qawwam}, an intensive form of {qaim}, meaning: 'to take care of, to look after'. Therefore, does this verse say that men are superior to women? Not at all. It says: men must look after women. In Islam, men are obliged to financially provide for their wife and children. They have to pay for their housing, clothing, food, medicines, etc. That is what {qawwamoona} means: men must take care of women.

Misbehaviour?

Is this verse about what a man should do when his wife 'misbehaves'? The exact word used here, {nushuz}, means 'discord, hostiliy, dissonance'. In this context it could be interpreted as 'marital problems'.

Beating his wife?

The verse instructs a husband whose wife causes problems in their marriage to first talk to her about it, then leave the marital bed, then {adriboo} his wife, and all of this in view of pursueing a reconciliation as is evident from the subsequent verse 4:35.

The Arabic word used here, {adriboo}, from the root {d-r-b}, has several dozens of meanings, such as: 'to beat', but also: 'to forsake, to avoid, to leave'.

Now let us take a look at the consequences of interpreting {adriboo} one way or another.

Suppose {adriboo} means: 'to beat'.

In this case, verse 4:34 says that when a wife causes a problem in the marriage, her husband should first talk to her about it, then leave their bed, then beat her and all of this in view of increasing his chances of a reconciliation. On the emotional level, this certainly does not sound like a very promising course of action. So let us check this meaning against the bigger framework and in particular against the principle of 'equal behaviour leads to equal punishment'. This would imply that when a husband causes a problem in the marriage, his wife can beat him. At which he could invoke verse 4:34 to beat her again, so that the result would be a perpetual physical fight between spouses! Surely, this makes no sense at all. And indeed, it is not what Allah prescribes for the situation where a husband causes a rift, as will be explained in a moment.

Suppose {adriboo} means: 'to forsake, to avoid', possibly, as Mohammed Abdul Malek5 suggests: 'to separate, to part' .

Now what do we get? Verse 4:34 now says that when a wife causes a problem in the marriage, her husband should first talk to her about it, then leave their bed (forsaking his sexual satisfaction), then avoid her even more (not talking to her anymore, leaving the room when she enters it, and possibly even leaving the house for a while), in order to prevent things from getting worse, and on the contrary to let things cool down and create enough space in view of increasing chances of a reconciliation.

This sounds like a very logical chain of events.

Also, application of the general rule of verse 24:2 ('equal actions, equal punishment') now means that when a husband causes a marital problem, his wife should forsake a few of her rights, avoid her husband in increasing ways, and try to work towards a reconciliation. And yes, that is precisely what verse 4:128 says:

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves" (Holy Qur'an 4:128)4

Understanding {adriboo} as 'to forsake, to (gradually) avoid (more and more), possibly eventually leave altogether', clearly makes sense when relating several verses to one another.

Furthermore, Allah says in the Holy Qur'an that one must meet bad behaviour with something that is better, not with something that is worse, in order to turn a hostile situation into a friendly one:

"Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (Holy Qur'an 41:13)4

Therefore the word {adriboo} cannot really have meant “to beat”, can it. It must mean something that is better than causing problems, and avoiding the problem certainly is exactly that.

Based on the evidence presented here, it would seem that interpreting {adriboo} as 'to beat', causes several internal conflicts with the meaning of other Qur'anic verses and hadiths, while interpreting it as 'gradually forsaking, more and more and possibly leaving altogether', is a much more logical interpretation that is entirely consistent with the interpretation of other rules in the Holy Qur'an.

What makes much more sense, is that this verse does not allow a 'superior' husband to 'beat' his 'inferior, disobedient' wife. On the contrary, this verse appears to tell us that a husband must look after his wife (an equal partner who, like he, is obedient to God), and that when his wife is causing problems in their marriage, he should first talk to her about it, if that doesn't help, he should begin avoiding her by leaving the marital bed. If that still doesn't resolve the situation, he should forsake her presence even more, avoid conversations, leave a room when she enters it, avoid her company altogether, and possibly leave the house for a while, so that no problems are added to the conflict, and so that things can cool down a bit to maximise chances for a later reconciliation.

Return to obedience?

When the problem is solved, when the wife is committed to the marriage again, then the husband is advised not to keep using the incident against her and to consider the incident closed.

The exact Arabic wording is: "when then they (fem.pl.) {aTa:} (with) you (masc.pl.), then seek not against them (fem.pl) means of annoyance". The verb {aTa:} (alif taa alif ayn) has several meanings, such as: 'obey', but also: 'comply, comply with, accommodate, give in to', or in French 'filer doux'. Consequently, the verse can be understood to mean: "when then they are committed to the marriage again", or: "when then they give in to/comply with the efforts of the husband to save the marriage", or "when they no longer cause marriage problems", ... Linguistically there is no compelling necessity to translate {aTa:} as "obedient to the husband" . Other interpretations are possible and indeed preferable. Earlier in the verse, there was no reason at all to translate {qanitat} as women who are "obedient to their husband" so that here there isn't any reason to imply that this verse is about a temporary disobedience and a subsequent return to obedience to their husbands. It is not a matter of obedience to him, it is a matter of {nushuz} (marriage problems). And the Holy Quran advises that when one of the partners causes a marriage problem, the other should gradually avoid the person who causes the problem, in order to save the marriage - irrespective of who started the strife (4:34, 4:128)


Yet of course, this is only an interpretation. Allah knows best.
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  #106  
Old June 9, 2010, 12:48 AM
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Nafi, sohel bhai posted a very good and logically cogent elucidation as to what verse 4:34 really means. unfortunately it has been mistranslated by majority of the scholars:

does the Quran command wife-beating in surah 4:34?
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  #107  
Old June 9, 2010, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nafi
in reality the biggest myths of islam are hadiths and tasfir.

They are myths. If you argue they are not, you are unintelligent.
আপনি কোথা হইতে এই মহান জ্ঞ্যান প্রাপ্ত হইলেন?
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﴾اَلَاۤ اِنَّ اَوۡلِيَآءَ اللّٰهِ لَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَيۡهِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ يَحۡزَنُوۡنَ ۖ ۚ‏ ﴿۶۲
"Listen, the friends of Allah shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve" (Yunus: 62)
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  #108  
Old June 9, 2010, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntu
আপনি কোথা হইতে এই মহান জ্ঞ্যান প্রাপ্ত হইলেন?
Cant read bangla. But regardless will write this.

myth - a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people.

I never said they were all false and completely baseless.
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  #109  
Old June 9, 2010, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
Cant read bangla. But regardless will write this.

myth - a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people.

I never said they were all false and completely baseless.
I asked, where did you find that great knowledge about Tafsir and Hadis that they are myth.
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"Listen, the friends of Allah shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve" (Yunus: 62)
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  #110  
Old June 9, 2010, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntu
I asked, where did you find that great knowledge about Tafsir and Hadis that they are myth.
Ok Tasfir, are different, theyre more like historical logs and accounts.

Im not going to give you biased sources, that are very anti-hadith, even though they have a compelling argument.

I made by judgment from what this Islamic Professor says; who gives a fair analysis.

Hadith = history

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  #111  
Old June 9, 2010, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
Nafi, sohel bhai posted a very good and logically cogent elucidation as to what verse 4:34 really means. unfortunately it has been mistranslated by majority of the scholars:

does the Quran command wife-beating in surah 4:34?
This one post took four hours of my night, coz I chased down the original website Sohel bhai quoted from and then...lol!

Edit: Five actually.
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  #112  
Old June 17, 2010, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
In reality the biggest myths of Islam are hadiths and tasfir.

They are myths. If you argue they are not, you are unintelligent.
*So you make insolent remarks such as the above attacking the belief of 90% muslims and then go on to quote Ibn Arabi in your Quran Science thread to defend your argument and think that makes you look intelligent?

*Then you go on the "members you are missing" thread and slander somebody out of the blue which is totally unwarranted and who's not even here to defend himself which only brings to light the sheer amount of hatred one is capable of bearing in heart

*You use foul language to counter attack someone who disagrees with you--you know exactly what I'm talking about and why your post was just deleted as I was reading it--and expect ppl to believe you and your ideology are true representations of Islam?

*The main problem with Islam today is extremism, mullahs that instigate ignorant followers to kill innocent ppl and blow up buildings, not all of them just because some of their views may be slightly different from yours. It's the hatred and detestation in the heart that eventually leads to such despicable acts. Accepting some of the minor differences or at least showing a level of tolerance by not making blanket accusations everytime can only help develop amity and dialogue between groups and suppress hatred from rearing it's ugly head and consuming us.

*I have no problem with the Quran Science thread. If anything I appreciate it. I also have several verses with scientific relevance quoted in leading journals--which I plan to add in that thread some time in the future--that are very difficult for the so called intelligentsia to debunk due to the fact that they're published in well known journals. What I have problem with is the unrelenting attitude you display sometimes when trying to defend your position which unknowingly only weakens your argument. So if it's at all possible for you to look outside the "zman probably detests me" glasses, just take it as a constructive criticism and let bygones be bygones.
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  #113  
Old June 17, 2010, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman
*So you make insolent remarks such as the above attacking the belief of 90% muslims and then go on to quote Ibn Arabi in your Quran Science thread to defend your argument and think that makes you look intelligent?
myth - a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people.
=hadith (this is the definition of hadiths), if the truth offends, so be it.

Im only stating facts. I didnt even use the words sahih, only 'sahih' hadiths are the texts that traditional muslims believe to be authentic.


I quoted Ibn Arabi, for historical reference, not for divine guidance, there's A WORLD OF difference.

If however I wanted to make an oppinion, I would make one, but I haven't felt compelled to

Quote:
*Then you go on the "members you are missing" thread and slander somebody out of the blue which is totally unwarranted and who's not even here to defend himself which only brings to light the sheer amount of hatred one is capable of bearing in heart
Oh whatever, there's a reason why he was banned, I never slandered him personally. Is it totally unwarranted to align myself with the moderators and their decision.

Quote:
*The main problem with Islam today is extremism, mullahs that instigate ignorant followers to kill innocent ppl and blow up buildings, not all of them just because some of their views may be slightly different from yours.
They use sahih hadiths to justify their actions, if you truly believe in sahih hadiths, sahih hadiths teach that you should kill innocent people, so why are you condemning people that believe in the Sahih hadiths (assuming you believe the Sahih hadiths in their 'entirety' are part of following Islam)
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  #114  
Old June 17, 2010, 06:17 PM
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I only believe in authentic hadith but then again there could be differences in opinion among scholars regarding the reliability of certain hadith, albeit the number of such hadith being not very large. So one hadith that's classified as sahih by one scholar could be regarded as hasan or maybe da'if by another.

I personally wouldn't accept any ruling from any hadeeth that contradicts the Quran because that would violate the most important condition of being sahih unless it's misquoted, quoted out of context or contains a ruling that has already been abrogated.

Anyway, if I were having a dialogue in matters of hadith and there's disagreement with, say for instance someone who believes it's okay to kill the innocent, I'd try and point out the flaws in their argument and stay humble and say "Allah knows best" and pray that the Almighty guide both parties lest he gets annoyed at the bickering and takes the guidance away. This way I'm getting them to actually listen to what I have to say and maybe even think from a different perspective which wouldn't happen otherwise, and maybe just maybe increasing the odds of having them take my name off their hit list.
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  #115  
Old June 17, 2010, 06:30 PM
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Im happy you agree to an extent with my views. But do your own research and you'll be surprised how many sahih hadiths do in fact go against the teachings of the Quran, and good number have been based on Biblical traditions.
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  #116  
Old June 17, 2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
Im happy you agree to an extent with my views. But do your own research and you'll be surprised how many sahih hadiths do in fact go against the teachings of the Quran, and good number have been based on Biblical traditions.
Nafi I just wonder from which college/school you're getting your Islamic "infos" from? Are you studying with a scholar or more of a D.I.Y man?

I hope sheikh Google or utube are not your main sources of Islamic scholarly knowledge
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