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  #101  
Old April 22, 2011, 11:38 PM
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Neel Here Neel Here is offline
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chappal plays favourites which is bad for team morale. nor is he a a good judge of a player. he wanted to finish ganguly and tendulkar's career and projected venugopal rao as replacement !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antora
I am gonna go with the rest of you guys and say " Bad choice" as i have no idea who this guy is :|
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/conte...yer/34059.html
robin singh was an allrounder of limited talent but one who would never back away from a fight. he was a fantastic fielder and a great runner between the wickets. more than anything else it was his commitment to the game that endeared him to fans. he got his real opening into the Indian team at the age of 33 and was still fit enough to play for 5 more years until more talented players replaced him. he was a player of the NZ allrounder type, useful lower order bat and slow medium pacer who depended on movement off the seam to get wickets.
one of his best innings was the 82 off 83 against pakistan at dhaka in the independence cup final, chasing 315, then the highest successful chase in ODI history. it was typical robin singh, performing under pressure with a couple of his trademark flat-batted sixes thrown in.
you can watch robin singh's innings here (from 5:00 onwards)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olc2aXvT5lc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LridWqwa1wg
after retirement he has coached India A, mumbai Indians in IPL and as fielding coach of India.
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  #102  
Old April 23, 2011, 12:18 AM
Tintin Tintin is offline
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Originally Posted by Baundule
Robin Singh was a fighting cricketer like Chacha. My guess is he will be a bad-hire. Mumbai Indians has a strong squad and the coach's work was not visible in any of their wins. Let's try Shane Warne.
And the boys can also learn a few things that are not in the syllabus :-)
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  #103  
Old April 23, 2011, 01:42 AM
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al-Sagar al-Sagar is offline
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Robin Singh would be a decent Head Coach for our A team or U-19 or academy team

currently academy team post is filled up.

so A team or U-19 would be perfect for him.

he can introduce the competitiveness, toughness etc qualities into the players
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  #104  
Old April 23, 2011, 01:45 AM
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^^ Pls bhai, we have so many other ex players/coaches who can do that.
Monder bhalor dike takiye kono luv nei.
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  #105  
Old April 23, 2011, 03:43 AM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betaar
Thanks Ian for reminding us. I remember reading that article a while back.....here's a link for people who hasn't.....a must read.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle6740828.ece
Yep this article came out some 3 years AFTER we all had a lecture from Dr Metha. He is such a legend and dispelled ALL the myths about swing bowling (especially the stuff Wasim Akram said and did about keeping cricket balls in the fridge to make them swing )

It seems that former players have little or no idea about the technical aspects of their skill. In other words they don't understand what they did, they just did it. This makes it hard for them to be good coaches and explain things clearly.

Dr Metha really helped improve my knowledge and confidence about the facts on swing bowling. I now speak from a viewpoint of the truth and not guesswork or folk lore. I feel many times as coaches who used to play the game that we are easily dismissive of the technical part or science of cricket. It's why teams appoint coaches who were 'good players' rather than from a base of knowledge about their subject - because it is like the blind leading the blind.

Only a few of us have bothered to explore and be experts in our fields. I feel today, if you are going to work with elite level players, you need to know man management, psychology, the facts behind your coaching and have an open mind to things that are new and innovative. In 16 years of coaching I have certainly moved my own views forward.
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  #106  
Old April 23, 2011, 06:17 AM
Aritro Aritro is offline
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God knows why everyone's so opposed to appointing a sub-continent coach. Here's hoping that the BCB are more concerned about a candidate's actual suitability than they are self-loathing notions of our race's intrinsic characteristics.

FWIW, I'd giv Warne a .03% of coaching Bangladesh. The bloke's a millionaire with multiple business interests, has a cushy gig with Channel 9, plays on the Poker tour and would probably rather spend his spare time exploring Liz Hurley's wrong un' than trying to get Riyad to catch a cricket ball.
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  #107  
Old April 23, 2011, 08:06 AM
BanCricFan BanCricFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Yep this article came out some 3 years AFTER we all had a lecture from Dr Metha. He is such a legend and dispelled ALL the myths about swing bowling (especially the stuff Wasim Akram said and did about keeping cricket balls in the fridge to make them swing )

It seems that former players have little or no idea about the technical aspects of their skill. In other words they don't understand what they did, they just did it. This makes it hard for them to be good coaches and explain things clearly.
.
Its quite mind boggling how dismissive you are of the former greats or the Legends of the game, Ian!

A great like Wasim who has 1042 First Class wickets at 21.64 a piece and over 900 international wkts, dubbed as the man who "can make the ball talk", has very little idea what he is/was doing is a very amusing notion, indeed. Imran Khan and Co. might not have been NASA rocket scientists but, surely, they must have had the slightest of an idea as to what they were doing out there. After all, they were the 'pioneer' of the art of reverse swing. Without being a rocket scientist Imran was able to pass on his knowledge and skills of reverse swing to others. Wasim and Waqar did quite well for themselves -right? They were the ones doing it in the middle of the park --without any assitance from NASA.

Let us not disrespect cricket. A little bit of humility might do us some good.
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  #108  
Old April 23, 2011, 10:42 AM
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Ashfaq Ashfaq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Its quite mind boggling how dismissive you are of the former greats or the Legends of the game, Ian!

A great like Wasim who has 1042 First Class wickets at 21.64 a piece and over 900 international wkts, dubbed as the man who "can make the ball talk", has very little idea what he is/was doing is a very amusing notion, indeed. Imran Khan and Co. might not have been NASA rocket scientists but, surely, they must have had the slightest of an idea as to what they were doing out there. After all, they were the 'pioneer' of the art of reverse swing. Without being a rocket scientist Imran was able to pass on his knowledge and skills of reverse swing to others. Wasim and Waqar did quite well for themselves -right? They were the ones doing it in the middle of the park --without any assitance from NASA.

Let us not disrespect cricket. A little bit of humility might do us some good.
BCF, while I agree with you that Wasim wasn't just any fondling blind, I feel that I must point out that technicalities are not a requirement to get the job done. I dunno whether Wasim Akram actually knew the aerodynamics of a wet sphere with symmetrically uneven spherical mass distribution. But I don't think he needed to know that in order to do all the things he did.

As far as I know reverse swing and air swing was mastered by the Pakistani pacers of 1990's through practice and experimentation. I think wasim was good enough to figure out which grip and which seam position will produce certain effect with out actually knowing the truth behind it.

Let me give you another example. Electrical engineers worldwide revere Michael Faraday as the father of electro-magnetics. He was the first man to discover that electricity and magnetism can induce each other in certain conditions. But it wsn't untill much later, when JC Maxwell published his treaties that we knew what thew heck have we been doing. But even before that, electro-mechanical switches making use of Faraday effect was in wide spread use. In fact, it is only now-a-days when theoritical treatment precedes practical implementation due to advancement in computational techniques.

I hope I was able to point out the difference between a "How" and a "Why".
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Last edited by Ashfaq; April 23, 2011 at 11:23 AM..
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  #109  
Old April 23, 2011, 12:35 PM
firstlane firstlane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashfaq

I hope I was able to point out the difference between a "How" and a "Why".
I am not sure if this is any relevant to what BCF tried to say.
Here I am echoing to what BCF said- Wasim and Co. might not know the science behind the swing but they were suucessfully doing it and passed the knowledge on to Gul, Amer, Asif and so on. That should tell us if they knew what they were doing. And I don't see Pak bowlers swinging the ball less than English bowlers without the privilage of attending to Dr. Mehta's lecture.
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  #110  
Old April 23, 2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstlane
I am not sure if this is any relevant to what BCF tried to say.
Here I am echoing to what BCF said- Wasim and Co. might not know the science behind the swing but they were suucessfully doing it and passed the knowledge on to Gul, Amer, Asif and so on. That should tell us if they knew what they were doing. And I don't see Pak bowlers swinging the ball less than English bowlers without the privilage of attending to Dr. Mehta's lecture.
I was pointing out that while Mr. Pont implied that wasim akram didn't know the reason behind swing, that didn't make him any less a player, which BCF accuses Mr. Pont of implying. As you state, the "how" is not very necessary for a player. But combining the how's and why's is a much more potent mix.
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  #111  
Old April 23, 2011, 03:47 PM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Its quite mind boggling how dismissive you are of the former greats or the Legends of the game, Ian!

A great like Wasim who has 1042 First Class wickets at 21.64 a piece and over 900 international wkts, dubbed as the man who "can make the ball talk", has very little idea what he is/was doing is a very amusing notion, indeed. Imran Khan and Co. might not have been NASA rocket scientists but, surely, they must have had the slightest of an idea as to what they were doing out there. After all, they were the 'pioneer' of the art of reverse swing. Without being a rocket scientist Imran was able to pass on his knowledge and skills of reverse swing to others. Wasim and Waqar did quite well for themselves -right? They were the ones doing it in the middle of the park --without any assitance from NASA.

Let us not disrespect cricket. A little bit of humility might do us some good.
I was laughing at the ridiculous fact Wasim advocated keeping the balls in the fridge to help them swing.. nothing else. There is nothing in that which is shown to be accurate. Please don't add things in that I didn't say, even though that is something a few people are very good at here.

My second point, and NOT about Wasim, is that some former players - even greats - pedal myths that are simply not true and not backed up by fact, yet we all lap it up. It is not about disrespecting players, it is about being a great coach. That comes from understanding and knowledge, and not from what we used to do as a player.

I think it's sweet that some people believe international players couldn't swing the ball until the greats told them how to.

But let me repeat it was keeping cricket balls in the fridge that made me laugh...
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  #112  
Old April 24, 2011, 12:12 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Harsha Bhogle's latest article backs up the opinion that there are few if any good coaches in teh subcontinent. He could be wrong, but he's probably right.
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  #113  
Old April 24, 2011, 12:46 AM
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  #114  
Old April 24, 2011, 07:08 AM
BanCricFan BanCricFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstlane
I am not sure if this is any relevant to what BCF tried to say.
Here I am echoing to what BCF said- Wasim and Co. might not know the science behind the swing but they were suucessfully doing it and passed the knowledge on to Gul, Amer, Asif and so on. That should tell us if they knew what they were doing. And I don't see Pak bowlers swinging the ball less than English bowlers without the privilage of attending to Dr. Mehta's lecture.
Thank you. Thats exactly what I was trying to illustrate there.

@ Ashfaq,
I wasn't trying to imply AT ALL that Ian dismissed Wasim Akram as an ordinary bowler. That, my friend, would be a travesty. Rather, I was trying to point out that one doesn't need to discredit the knowledge and 'technical' know-how of skills of a great like Wasim Akram to promote and drive home the super-importance of coaching based on cutting-edge technology, aero-dynamics, bio-mechanics and the rest. While I welcome and appreciate coaching based on science/'facts' and all kind of technical breakdowns, my admiration and utmost respect has to be reserved for the legends of the game who were the ones ACTUALLY doing all these 'wonderful stuffs' effortlessly and intuitively out there in the middle. They ARE the true artists. I don't see too many Akrams or Waqars and their likes walking around today despite all the hi-knowledge and hi-tecs available to the modern coaches.

@Ian,

I laugh with you too about Wasim's fridge explanation. Was was no rocket scientist -agreed. But...
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  #115  
Old April 24, 2011, 08:02 AM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
I wasn't trying to imply AT ALL that Ian dismissed Wasim Akram as an ordinary bowler. That, my friend, would be a travesty. Rather, I was trying to point out that one doesn't need to discredit the knowledge and 'technical' know-how of skills of a great like Wasim Akram to promote and drive home the super-importance of coaching based on cutting-edge technology, aero-dynamics, bio-mechanics and the rest. While I welcome and appreciate coaching based on science/'facts' and all kind of technical breakdowns, my admiration and utmost respect has to be reserved for the legends of the game who were the ones ACTUALLY doing all these 'wonderful stuffs' effortlessly and intuitively out there in the middle. They ARE the true artists. I don't see too many Akrams or Waqars and their likes walking around today despite all the hi-knowledge and hi-tecs available to the modern coaches.

I laugh with you too about Wasim's fridge explanation.
The underlined section above backs up my point, thank you. My point, if you go back to what I said originally, is that being able to do it doesn't make people great COACHES. And it was only until Dr Metha explained how stuff worked and what was urban myth that we (as former players now turned coaches) can understand it all. THAT was my point.

No one is denegrating the 'greats' of the game (as you realise). And their 'stories' about what they did make truly wonderful after-dinner anecdotes. I love listening to old players talk about stuff. And sometimes we can try to copy such greats of the game as players in the vain hope it will make us as good as them. If only it was so simple.

There is a difference between someone being an inspiration and being a world class coach. Let's try not to confuse the two.
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  #116  
Old April 25, 2011, 06:08 AM
BanCricFan BanCricFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
There is a difference between someone being an inspiration and being a world class coach. Let's try not to confuse the two.
I feel like we are going around in circles here. A great cricket player doesn't mean a great coach by default. But a great ex-cricketer is more likely to turn out to be a 'world class' coach should he choose to persue it as his career. He would have gathered a vast reservoir of skills, experience, knowledge, understanding, temperament required to handle sustained pressure and come out winner and other mental aspects of the game. There is no substitute to the experience gathered and skills learnt by playing at the highest level of the game for a prolonged time. This is where a great ex-cricketer may have a clear advantage over a coach who didn't play or played very little at the highest level. This can be taken as a 'fact'. Look at how many Test playing cricketers and non-Test playing cricketers are coaching (batting/bowling) top sides today. Its a shame many of the greats of the game prefer showbiz, tv punditry or politics over coaching cricket, though.

So, a great cricketer is not automatically a 'world class' coach but if turns out to be competent (coach) then he is the one to go to.
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  #117  
Old April 25, 2011, 11:40 AM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
I feel like we are going around in circles here.
Not at all. you just missing my premise and point. So let me say it in another way.

1. Boards 'tend' to appoint former players on the assumption (incorrectly) that they understand HOW to coach ('Such and such' was a great player so he must know how to show others).

2. They then 'tend' to select ONE NATIONAL STYLE of head coach (The IPL is full of Australian coaches, Bangladesh, SL, India go for SA/Aussies... regardless).

It seems that there is a 'fad' or fashion to have a certain type of coach, even if there is no logic to it.

No one seems to check if the knowledge a 'coach' has backs up the position they hold because their playing experience gets in the way. And it might be that no one actually cares. Big names bring kudos to boards and the fans love the names they have heard of, so it is self-fulfilling.

My point is, that if you are a professional career coach and an educated expert in your field, it is disappointing to discover jobs are taken by 'stars'.

By educating themselves with facts, those who were great players MIGHT be really good coaches. Development of the self is vital when it comes to being a good coach.
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  #118  
Old April 25, 2011, 01:28 PM
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sincerely hope this news broke out on April 1.
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  #119  
Old April 25, 2011, 04:46 PM
BanCricFan BanCricFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
By educating themselves with facts, those who were great players MIGHT be really good coaches. Development of the self is vital when it comes to being a good coach.
Its interesting that you stop short at 'MIGHT be really good coaches' and don't extend to...potentially 'world class' coaches. Perhaps, there is some beef between the coaches and the 'star' cricketers that we don't know?

As for why some Boards go with a certain type of Head Coach...I think in case of BCB their philosophy is to hire top coaches with very professional work ethics/ attitude and cutting edge know-how from a successful Test playing nation. Therefore, an Aussie/Saffer appointment becomes an obvious option. I think there might also be a bilateral deal between BCB and CA.

I believe BCB has got it right here. The only problem of an 'western' appointment is the language barrier between the coach and the cricketers. Perhaps, they should encourage the future coaches to take up Bangla and teach English to the cricketers. As things stand now, I'm opposed to any Asian appointment for a number of reasons. But, no problem in hiring a Ganguly or an Akram as part-time consultants, if needed.

Btw, how did you navigate around the language barrier while in Bangladesh, Ian? Would be very interesting to know your takes on this.
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  #120  
Old April 25, 2011, 05:10 PM
Equinox Equinox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Its interesting that you stop short at 'MIGHT be really good coaches' and don't extend to...potentially 'world class' coaches. Perhaps, there is some beef between the coaches and the 'star' cricketers that we don't know?
What's the difference? Just different terminology.

Quote:
As for why some Boards go with a certain type of Head Coach...I think in case of BCB their philosophy is to hire top coaches with very professional work ethics/ attitude and cutting edge know-how from a successful Test playing nation. Therefore, an Aussie/Saffer appointment becomes an obvious option. I think there might also be a bilateral deal between BCB and CA.
I think what Ian is arguing is that BCB and other boards make an assertion, like you, that a coach from Aus/SA would be automatically more professional or have a better work ethic and thus give them a preference over other coaches which is not right. Similarly they also assume that an ex-great WILL make a good coach and be able to teach his players what they did when they played. And I agree with Ian that if you can do something it doesn't necessarily mean you can teach others how to do it. I am with Ian here. A coach should be appointed on his coaching credentials not what he did as a player.
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