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  #76  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:19 PM
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shuziburo shuziburo is offline
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Default Regarding innovation

Bid'ah or innovation is a serious matter in Islam. Some might consider such "inflexibility" a weakness of the religion. From my perspective, Qur'an and Sunnah define Islam and once one starts to modify the basic principles, we have a new religion that no longer is Islam. Yes, interpretations can change, but not everything is open to interpretation; some commandments are very black and white.

A couple of narrations about innovation below:
The Prophet (SAWS) stated repeatedly that: "Every newly-invented thing is a bid'ah (innovation), every bid'ah is a going astray, and every going astray will be in the Fire." (Reported by al-Nisaa'i in al-Sunan, Salaat al-'Eedayn, Baab kayfa al-Khutbah). Reports with the same meaning were narrated via Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) by Ahmad, via al-'Irbaad ibn Saariyah by Abu Dawud and via Ibn Mas'ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) by Ibn Maajah.
The Prophet (SAWS) used to say, when beginning a khutbah (sermon): "… The best of speech is the Book of Allaah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad. The worst of things are those which are newly-invented, and every innovation is a going astray…" (reported by Muslim, no. 867)
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  #77  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:22 PM
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  #78  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
...
The story of Prophet Lut, as I interpret it, is speaking out against LUST. What about homosexual LOVE? They are separate...
What's your interpretation of the 16th verse of Surah Nisa in context with that of the 15th? Can there be an alternative explanation of it other than what the majority since the 7th century thought of it to be?

Quote:
15. If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them another way.

16. If two men among you were guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
Just to be clear about the 15th verse, the scholars agree that the ruling of confining women was replaced by another in the later stage of Muhammad (pbuh)'s prophethood.
So although the sentence changed, the act stayed a crime.

(..goes to show how much learning we still need to do. I, for one, used to be of the belief that the Qur'an contained no worldly punishment for homosexuals and they'll be dealt with in the hereafter only. Not anymore!!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
...
Also, if you want to borrow moral code from Prophet Lut's story - did you know he offered his own teenage daughters to the villagers to be raped when they tried to rape the angels hiding in his home? If you want to borrow an ethical code from that story, why not this one? Do you understand now what I mean about interpretations?
...
That is an act not befitting the prophet of Allah. Where on earth did you find this narration? Is it a Qur'anic or a Bibilical one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
...
And the reason why I asked you the question about that particular verse was to get exactly the answer you gave me. You know how you told me to look at the bigger picture? That I am taking that verse out of context? Well, aren't you doing the same with the verse about Prophet Lut? Can I not quote the plethora of verses about kindness, love, and appreciation for humanity from the Qur'an and apply them to homosexuals (and others who are marginalized in society)?

Basically, you INTERPRETED, by extrapolating from other parts of the Quran, that wife-beating is wrong. Why can't others do the same about other issues?
Apparently, the word that was translated as ''to beat them lightly'' can be translated in many other ways. And considering how vocal the Qur'an is throughout itself about womens' rights, it makes perfect (and no less) sense to interpret it as anything other than the permissibility of beating one's wife.

But the same thing cannot be said about homosexuality. The Qur'an is very specific on its prohibition. And if the Lut (pbuh)'s story wasn't decisive enough, the verse specificying ''two men for lewdness'' for punishment just closes the case.
  #79  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:37 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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You guy's do not know what 'woman' means in that verse, in fact in the whole Quran.
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  #80  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:50 PM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
You guy's do not know what 'woman' means in that verse, in fact in the whole Quran.
Enlighten us please if you do.
  #81  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:51 PM
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Islam was already reformed 1400 years ago. If we only bothered to learn as Zeeshan stated what the Quran *actually* says instead of what we've been told by half-literate mullahs from time immemorial, we'd realize that the only reformation thats needed is to go back to what Islam was at the time of the Prophet (saw): a religion of Mercy.

When it comes to things like prayer, I'm afraid the book is closed. You can't change aspects of prayer like having women lead men or even other women. Its not salaat anymore, but a new creation which would fall under bid'a. The Quran states that men have been placed as "maintainers" of women and this is both from a religious and practical sense. In the human (and all other mammalian) species at least, sexual dimorphism would point towards this.

As far as homosexuals go, this is interesting because I'm not very sure that homosexuality is an alternate lifestyle choice and if people are born that way, then it cannot be a sin. But I'm unsure of how gay marriage would play out from a shariah standpoint.
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  #82  
Old April 1, 2012, 02:55 PM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Okay, now I think we need some general perspective on what a Muslim guilty of a crime in Islam can or cannot do until he repents or his sentence, if he is sentenced, is over.

This is only for those of us who believe homosexuality to be prohibited in Islam and warrants a worldly sentence.

Edit: ...only when the person's admitted to it OR he's proven to be guilty.
  #83  
Old April 1, 2012, 03:02 PM
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Can someone draw some light on Ibn Tayymiah's work that apparently supports the case of women leading prayers?
  #84  
Old April 1, 2012, 03:03 PM
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^^^^

What someone does behind closed doors is between him/her and God. In Sharia, a punishment is considered only when the person confess to the act of homosexuality or if other people evidence the act. Same goes for adultery.
  #85  
Old April 1, 2012, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sufism
^^^^

What someone does behind closed doors is between him/her and God. In Sharia, a punishment is considered only when the person confess to the act of homosexuality or if other people evidence the act. Same goes for adultery.
Agree with you indeed, plus spying over others' lives isn't a commendable act in Islam. So it's not our job to go and find out who's doing what in their privacy.

But when I said 'guilty', I meant ''proven to be guilty'' or that the person has admitted to it.
  #86  
Old April 1, 2012, 03:09 PM
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Hamza Yusuf apparently agrees to it citing Ibn Tayyimiah as his point of references among others.
  #87  
Old April 1, 2012, 04:04 PM
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^ Although Qur'an is not SOLELY meant to aid one's spiritual growth but also equally to be a guide for us on how we lead our lives.. I see your point of self-realisation and of needing to renovate one's inner state by digging deep inside it. Nicely put out, zsayeed brother.
  #88  
Old April 1, 2012, 05:57 PM
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  #89  
Old April 1, 2012, 06:12 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goru
Brilliant commentary! having fun yet?

Are you also expecting some carnage at the end of this thread?
  #90  
Old April 1, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
Brilliant commentary! having fun yet?

Are you also expecting some carnage at the end of this thread?
Bujhlam na? Are you amused?
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  #91  
Old April 1, 2012, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
Bujhlam na? Are you amused?
Goru is our resident nastik.
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  #92  
Old April 1, 2012, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
The story of Prophet Lut, as I interpret it, is speaking out against LUST. What about homosexual LOVE? They are separate. Also, if you want to borrow moral code from Prophet Lut's story - did you know he offered his own teenage daughters to the villagers to be raped when they tried to rape the angels hiding in his home? If you want to borrow an ethical code from that story, why not this one? Do you understand now what I mean about interpretations?
Brother, this is wholly incorrect. Lut (as) offered his daughters as wives in marriage in a last ditch attempt to "change" his people.

I am not sure if these verses are speaking out against homosexuality or not, but yes, it is speaking out against transgressive lust. IMO, lust is no different than biological urge to mate and as such there is nothing wrong with lust per se...but rather the problem is with lust gone amok.
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  #93  
Old April 2, 2012, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
When the Quran speaks of the Prophet being allowed more than 4, and it specifically has said - we have granted you more than 4 and this is only for you - because the Prophet exceeded those 4 levels of spiritual evolution and went beyond.

I wont delve into the others parts of your post, however the above bit is wrong, the Quran does not say "we have granted you more than 4 and this is only for you", or anything to that effect
  #94  
Old April 2, 2012, 09:44 AM
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I was curious - but the passage looks more like a relaxation against the injunction of marrying first cousins than the number of wives. Not wanting to debate is a cop out.
  #95  
Old April 2, 2012, 09:57 AM
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Then I'd rather cop out then have my love on trial.
I never had too much honor for Fiqh.
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  #96  
Old April 2, 2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
Then I'd rather cop out then have my love on trial.
You are a very sensitive man, aren't you. Good for you.

Your love is not on trial but perchance your interpretation might be?
  #97  
Old April 2, 2012, 10:25 AM
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prem-e cheka khawa lok era sadharonoto nastik hoi
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  #98  
Old April 2, 2012, 11:22 AM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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(^)^n: nϵN

What a goru!
  #99  
Old April 2, 2012, 12:59 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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I have deleted my posts because I will not quibble. My post was not for Jurisprudence (what is called Fiqh in Islamic Studies). Ghazzali was an expert of Islamic Jurisprudence, and then he totally stopped it's teaching and wrote the book: al-Munqidh min al-Dalal - which means deliverance from error.

He quit teaching, and journeyed 10 years in the search of Love. That was his realization of his error.

He explains: The categories of those who seek the truth:
1. The Mutakallimun: Who allege that they are men of independent judgement and reasoning
2. The Batinites: who claim to be unique posessors of knowledge from infallible Imams
3, The philosophers who maintain they are the men of logic and apodeictic demonstration and
4. The sufis who are familiar with the Devine presence and the men of mystic vision and illumination.

Then he goes on: "Away, up and away! Only a little is left of you this life and a long journey awaits! All the theory and practice in which you are engrossed is eye service and fakery!"

And then he writes: "Nothing in the logical sciences has anything to do with religion by way of negation and affirmation. On the contrary they are the methods of proofs, of syllogisms, of the conditions of apodeictic demonstration,....."

I have no passion for Fiqh. The heart, as Love, is not bound by the mind. It is a feeling...and one needs to be sensitive to let it come to you.

I am a man of science, and I know when science stops and Love begins.
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  #100  
Old April 2, 2012, 01:15 PM
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I agree with zsayeed bhai regarding heart and love. But I think fiqh is necessary too. While love for Allah might give me the answer to - why pray, the fiqh (jurisprudence) tells me how to pray and when to pray. Same goes for other commands, such as sawm, zakah, hajj and others.

Religion is not only based on Quran, rather its a combination of Quran and Authentic Hadith. While the Quran tells us Aqimus Salah (Establish Prayer), it has no mention of the methods of Salah. This is where the Hadith comes in.

Also I believe Religion has become a buffet for most of us. Choose whatever you like and disregard what does not cater to your likings. If I do accept it to be divine and from Allah, then why question even a single of His command? Thus I can't even question any of the rulings. If I do, that means I am questioning the divinity. That's why it is said in that enter into the fold of Islam completely.

P.S. Post in not directed to anyone, rather its meant in general. This includes me as well.

Last edited by mufi_02; April 2, 2012 at 02:06 PM..
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