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View Poll Results: Who will you pick in your test team?
Kallis 14 77.78%
Sachin 4 22.22%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old December 16, 2012, 03:01 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by World Champs
Kallis had bowlers like steyn, donald and pollock in his team and won more. India on the other hand didn't had the bowlers of this caliber. Its a team game after all. I don't think Kallis would have won these games with an bowling attack comprising of agarkar, Prasad etc.

I agree with everyone on Kallis is a better overall cricketer, but when it comes to batting I would rate him just slighlty behind Sachin or Ponting or Lara. These guys has scored more against better bowling attacks. India used to be just like 1 man team in the 90's. Everyone knew that if you get Sachin out, India will/can fold out cheaply. But this was not the case with Kallis. So you can imagine the pressure that Sachin had carried every form of the game.

People can have their opinion but It doesn't look good when you try to bash one great player in order to prove that other is better.
Whereas it is difficult to boil down a player's lifetime into a few numbers - yet we do. Always. In doing so we take the ego out of the analysis altogether and we deal with numbers. The bias may be in how the study is set up - but no where else. Even we chose the same criteria for analysis - the criteria for analysis chosen may be biased.

Let me look at the analysis from a simple point of view. I am sure there will be some interpretation of the results based on the numbers. Here is my interpretation first, then my analysis later.

Conclusion:

Kallis is the epitome of consistency whether his team loses or not. And his performance never deviates on account of his team mates - neither does South Africa depend solely on his performance. He is a complete professional - perform no matter what.

Tendulakar, being given the god ranking - his failure = team's failure. His moniker has probably done more disservice to his team then service.


Here is why:

Let's take a look at the following for each player for Tests only:

a) Player's winning runs in winning cause
b) Team's winning runs in winning cause
c) Take the ratio of a and b.

Do the same for team's draw/loss/tie

So here is the input:
1. Kallis winning runs: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ing;view=match
2. SA's runs in the wins as a team: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...eam;view=match
3. Kallis' runs in team loss/draw/tie http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ing;view=match
4. SA's runs in loss/draw/tie: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...eam;view=match
5. Tendulkar's winning runs: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ing;view=match
6. India's run in their wins: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...eam;view=match
7. Tendulkar's runs in a loss/draw/tie: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ing;view=match
8. India's runs in draw/loss/tie: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...eam;view=match

Import into excel and calculate player's runs as a fraction of team runs for test match and the same for the matches lost/drawn/tied.

Here are the findings:
Kallis scored 6109 runs out of 39677 in their wins in 76 tests : 15%
Kallis scored 6788 runs out of 44604 in their non-wins in 81 tests: 15%!

Tendulkar scored 5670 runs out of 37685 in their wins in 66 tests: 15%!
Tendulkar scored 3110 runs out of 66249 in their non-wins in 127 tests: 5%!!!



Now,
Does the above make Tendulkar God-like from the wins ratio. No, Kallis has the same ratio relative to the rest of the team's batting. Neither did Tendulkar, on the average, contribute a superhuman number of runs in the team's winning cause.

On the other hand, Kallis - being the professional - never wavered from his contribution of the 15% even when the going was tough. Whereas, Tendulkar failed in those events when his team did not win. That is the price of god-like reverence and god-like dependence.
God failed = Team failed.
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Last edited by zsayeed; December 16, 2012 at 05:54 PM..
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  #52  
Old December 16, 2012, 03:28 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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^ addendum to JK and ST's stats
Including Lara tests to the similar assessment.


ST's run % stands out in the non-wins.

Lara Input for Tests:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...und;view=match
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...eam;view=match
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...und;view=match
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...eam;view=match

And yes, Lara taking a greater share of runs than Kallis. Marginally, but yes.
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  #53  
Old December 16, 2012, 05:52 PM
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BrianLara7 BrianLara7 is offline
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Sir God with all his greatness failed to manage even one series win in Australia/ South Africa playing for so long... while devotee Kallis managed a win in Australia and India and actually played major role in the victories. India could have won first series in Australia if Sir god didnt choke for once and actually played a big innings when it mattered to win a match (Mcg 2nd innings 2011 while chasing target under 300)
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  #54  
Old December 16, 2012, 05:59 PM
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BengaliPagol BengaliPagol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by World Champs
Everyone knew that if you get Sachin out, India will/can fold out cheaply. But this was not the case with Kallis. So you can imagine the pressure that Sachin had carried every form of the game.
Replace the words 'Sachin' with 'Shakib' in the quote above and replace the word 'India' with 'Bangladesh'.
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  #55  
Old December 16, 2012, 06:22 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
Replace the words 'Sachin' with 'Shakib' in the quote above and replace the word 'India' with 'Bangladesh'.
Actually no. Shakib is a lot better than Tendulkar as far as serving the country is concerned. Since BD win in tests is not statistically significant, I resort to ODIs.

Here is the tragedy - Shakib has contributed more with the bat to the team's effort when the team has lost:



By his own stat, irrespective of the rest of the team, Shakib scores 33.7 on average in wins and 51.2 in BD's losses.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...und;view=match
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...und;view=match
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team
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  #56  
Old December 16, 2012, 06:27 PM
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BengaliPagol BengaliPagol is offline
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^this implies the fact that the only time BD win is when all the batsmen in the team perform. If Shakib is left to score all the runs then we can assume that we have lost the match. Consistency is our problem
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  #57  
Old December 16, 2012, 06:30 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
^this implies the fact that the only time BD win is when all the batsmen in the team perform. If Shakib is left to score all the runs then we can assume that we have lost the match. Consistency is our problem
I added a bit of addendum to my post on Shak's average for loss win. Adversity brings out the best in him. Please note the 33 (in win) vs 51 (in loss) average.
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  #58  
Old December 16, 2012, 06:36 PM
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BengaliPagol BengaliPagol is offline
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It unbelievable to think that there are 7 batsmen in the team to score runs and Shakib scores almost 1/4 of the teams total when the team loses. That means the other 6 batsmen score 3/4 of the teams runs in a losing cause. Pretty shocking actually. It shows that we lose matches due to the low contribution from other batsmen.

Also zsayeed bhai can you do one on Tamim if you dont mind? I just want to have a clear figure on how much we actually rely on him vs how he actually performs in wins/losses.
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  #59  
Old December 16, 2012, 06:50 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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^ Here you go.

Tamim averages 38 when team wins and 25 when team loses.

Team with Tamim:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

Tamim in wins:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...und;view=match
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  #60  
Old December 16, 2012, 06:56 PM
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BengaliPagol BengaliPagol is offline
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I think Tamim and Shaks stats link up. The only time BD win is rest of the players (other than Shakib) perform. So when Tamim performs and other players perform we will most likely put up a good score. If everyone gets out then Shakib is left to score the runs therefore Shakib has an inflated average on a losing cause.
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  #61  
Old December 16, 2012, 07:00 PM
zsayeed zsayeed is offline
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Yes, and the bottom line is Shakib's life with Bangladesh cricket is a tragedy. He plays extra hard when team is losing. Commendable but cause for a lot of heart ache on his part.
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