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  #51  
Old July 20, 2004, 11:05 AM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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Great job Arnab.

Our site has now grown to have reached to such magnitude that the national players and their close associates regularly pay visits here. I think we should be very careful in making comments and prematurely jump to any conclusion right away. These comments might have far reaching effects and even may cause harm to the confidence of players and the team.

To clarify a little, from certain angles our elbow joint does not look straight because of a natural "carrying angle". Besides, images from multiple angles of the same position are necessary to determine even a small straightening of the elbow joint. You might recall that even medical doctors routinely order for X-Rays from atleast two angles to rule out or confirm any bony fracture.

Some of the above pictures do look the elbow to be bent, but we do not know if it represents the normal carrying angle or any deformity.

The best course to take for us at the moment would be to unconditionally rally behind Razzak and the team while pushing the authority to take the right direction at the right time.
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  #52  
Old July 20, 2004, 11:18 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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I differ from the viewpoint of "unconditionally rallying" behind a bowler with a suspect action.

As honest fans, we should unconditionally rally for the truth. Honesty supersedes patriotism.

And I don't think Razzak's bowling action will suddenly change from reading these posts.
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  #53  
Old July 20, 2004, 11:24 AM
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say say is offline
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I second Arnab here.. This is a technical issue - there's no point 'rallying behind' anyone this is not a subjective choice of anyone. We are only being delusional if we are not seeing an obvious problem.
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  #54  
Old July 20, 2004, 11:44 AM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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Well, we don't know the thruth yet or do we? His action is only "suspect" at this moment and not "cofirmed" by any scientific method or by an accredited body. Negative comments may not change his bowling action but his and the team's confidence may take a hyke.

What happens to the "Innocent until proven guilty" thing? Did the umpires no-balled him for his action? Has it been proven that he really bends his elbow beyond the acceptable limits?

In the absence of the answers, I ask for patience and support.
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  #55  
Old July 20, 2004, 12:08 PM
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Nasif Nasif is offline
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Arnab, great job man

I think we should have continued this discussion (right from Arnab's image analysis post) in the other thread (Let us review razzaq's action video). Should I split it and merge with the other one?

In any event, I think the side view angle isn't a conclusive one. His arm is completely straight right at the moment of release. I would suggest all of you to carefully go through all the images in picture profile.

Take a closer look at this looping video. His arm at release is fully straight:
http://games.banglacricket.com/picture.php?p=135
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  #56  
Old July 20, 2004, 02:27 PM
rockpundit rockpundit is offline
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The pictures show it all.... The frame where he just leaves the ball is the only frame of importance and it shows that his arm is as straight as an arrow...
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  #57  
Old July 20, 2004, 03:07 PM
rockpundit rockpundit is offline
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I cant believe this. Arnab, I dont really understand your actual motive for coming to this site. We all know that we cant change BCB's decisions from here. What we can do is discuss among ourselves just for the fun of it...
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  #58  
Old July 20, 2004, 04:34 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Ok, Here's the law.

Quote:
Definition of fair delivery the arm

A ball is fairly delivered in respect of the arm if, once the bowler's arm has reached the level of the shoulder in the delivery swing, the elbow joint is not straightened partially or completely from that point until the ball has left the hand. This definition shall not debar a bowler from flexing or rotating the wrist in the delivery swing.
So as I read it, from THIS point (where Razzak's arm has reached shoulder level during his delivery swing):



Razzak cannot have a bent elbow that can later be straightened (as some of you are suggesting happening just as he is releasing his delivery), unless he has a deformity that makes him unable to do so.

So, if I am not mistaken, as per law, he cannot go from here :



to here:


UNLESS:

There's an optical illusion here due to:

a. The camera angle
b. Razzak's deformity

And Razzak's use of long sleeves is definitely not helping.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by Arnab]
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  #59  
Old July 20, 2004, 04:51 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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Quote:
Razzak cannot have a bent elbow that can later be straightened (as some of you are suggesting happening just as he is releasing his delivery), unless he has a deformity that makes him unable to do so.
Yes, this is absolutely right for the delivery stride.

The bent that you marked in the above picture could very much represent the normal carrying angle. See if you can reproduce similar "bent" without actually bending the elbow, by placing the arm in a mock delivery in front of a mirror.

Furthermore, from Bashar's comment, it seems like his quicker deliveries, not the stock balls, are suspect. If this is true than how could we be sure that all the above pics are from quicker deliveries instead of his stock balls?
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  #60  
Old July 20, 2004, 05:10 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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All the pics are from the same delivery. And the ball was a pretty much a stock ball, slow. The batsman got out out caught by misjudging the flight.

But yeah, it's inconclusive.
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  #61  
Old July 20, 2004, 05:24 PM
the_wall the_wall is offline
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Default very very true.

First of all arnab a really good job. It really shows that there is a problem with his action. But even if there is a problem ICC will not be BANNING him from bowling . He will have to work with experts and get it fixed. Now as Rockpundit said we can't change BCB's decision (although he will play against India) but I feel all this has reaally been done over the curiosity of loosing a talented bowler.

This really shows that we have some really supportive fans. However the topic of having fans should not really be raised as far as bangladeshi fans are concerned they probably are the best in the world. At least when we compare them with Indian or pkai fans as the they are no where close to being as supportive as Bangladeshi fans are. So really it should be the other way round for me rockpundit when it comes to learning about how to support. However from whatever posts u have written it really seems to me that u r a REALLY TRUE fan of bangladesh cricket and people like rho may just be better of learning how to support Bangladesh by following u as he really needs a lesson on how to support ur own country even while leaving outside the country.

(the topic of fans should reaaly not have been raised as this website is in itself an example of bangladeshi fans. however when people like rho are there doubt over bangladeshi fan following may always be raised)






[Edited on 20-7-2004 by the_wall]
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  #62  
Old July 20, 2004, 05:51 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by the_wall
First of all arnab a really good job. It really shows that there is a problem with his action.
Yes, he did a tremendous job. But it doesn't conclusively show any problem. If Bashar's comment is true and if the pics are from stock balls (as Arnab said) then all the pics are from legal deliveries. See my explanations above.

Rho has been a very good fan and a dedicated member of this forum for a long time. It is not wise for a new member to be judgemental of other members. Besides, we actively discourrage any member (except for the moderators for obvious reasons) to play big brother. Thank you for your co-operation and support.
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  #63  
Old July 20, 2004, 06:12 PM
sageX sageX is offline
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This pictures doesn't prove anything. Good picture arrangment but to make a conclusion this is unadequate.

Beside it is the release angle that is important. Pic 5 is the most important because it shows the release point. In pic 5 his hand is straight. Pic 4 will be bent for any bowler in earth. Whoever played little cricket knows that. Who can have 360 straight motion. Robot maybe.
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  #64  
Old July 20, 2004, 06:21 PM
sageX sageX is offline
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No offense! Just an observation. Chinaman always back the pessimist as valued member expressing valued opinion. Chinaman is himself a pessimist. So he protect pessimist. I guess chinaman got burnt so many times by BD team that he forgot how to be optimist.

Chinaman look around tide is turning.
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  #65  
Old July 20, 2004, 06:28 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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Hahaha. Look no further than this thread to get my views. Cheers.
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  #66  
Old July 20, 2004, 06:33 PM
sageX sageX is offline
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Good man! Keep it up.
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  #67  
Old July 20, 2004, 07:25 PM
rockpundit rockpundit is offline
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Highly technical analysis. I applaud all of you...
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  #68  
Old July 20, 2004, 07:33 PM
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Nasif Nasif is offline
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I don't like two seperate thread running independently with same topic.

I think I will merge the video footage thread with this one.
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  #69  
Old July 20, 2004, 07:53 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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I'd suggest to let it continue as it is for one or two more days before merging or splitting as this is a hot topic and the pics might prolong the loading time for some viewers.
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  #70  
Old July 20, 2004, 11:43 PM
Tintin Tintin is offline
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Nasif, can you get a similar gif for some other left arm spinner for comparing it with Razzak - not Rafeeq, but Jayasuriya or someone.

tia.
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  #71  
Old July 21, 2004, 12:24 AM
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Nasif Nasif is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tintin
Nasif, can you get a similar gif for some other left arm spinner for comparing it with Razzak - not Rafeeq, but Jayasuriya or someone.

tia.
I will try to get it.
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  #72  
Old July 21, 2004, 02:39 AM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tintin
Nasif, can you get a similar gif for some other left arm spinner for comparing it with Razzak - not Rafeeq, but Jayasuriya or someone.

tia.
Good idea. Please try to get the stock balls if possible. Thanks.
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