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  #26  
Old January 17, 2009, 02:33 AM
kfirooz kfirooz is offline
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Bangladesh cricket administrators and fans have always thought of their cricketing quality much higher than it really is. This was genuine belief or just pride I don't know but this attitude is what prompted the sacking of Greenidge and high expectations from the fans from the team and the merciless bashing that goes on when they lose.

BUT for the very first time they can think of their team as improving and learning to put up a good fight. This is the point from which they will begin to become serious contenters. So appreciate this achievement and help the team grow.
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  #27  
Old January 17, 2009, 02:39 AM
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Sohel Sohel is offline
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After losing to Zimbabwe initially, then beating Sri Lanka, and finally losing to them the way we did, I'm at a loss for words. It's tough to gauge "where we stand" when we have the ability to traverse the space-time continuum to the umpteenth dimension instantaneously, almost ball by ball.
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Last edited by Sohel; January 17, 2009 at 02:50 AM..
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  #28  
Old January 17, 2009, 02:42 AM
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Shaan Shaan is offline
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I quite agree Miraz's post but I find Naeem quite impressive spinner these days after seeing him bowling in onedayers with in good controll of line and length and picking up vital wickets with Shakib. Which is goood for us and for Shakib that Shakib got his supporting hand.
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  #29  
Old January 17, 2009, 02:43 AM
sandpiper sandpiper is offline
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Sohel bhai, ami la jawab
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR
After losing to Zimbabwe initially, then beating Sri Lanka, and finally losing to them the way we did, I'm at a loss for words. It's tough to gauge "where we stand" when we have the ability to the space-time continuum to the umpteenth dimension instantaneously, almost ball by ball.
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  #30  
Old January 17, 2009, 08:43 AM
thebest thebest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddhika_s
don't lose your heart man, someone's gotta win and someone's gotta loose. when someone wins someone looses, that's the nature of life. this will only teach you guys a new lessons. So don't be ashamed of loosing, because when it's all said and done all those lessons learned will come in handy.
I wish I could quote this in a SL forum. I am still bleeding; could not believe we lost after 6/5.
Miraz, top post. I completely agree.
BTW our fielding in ODI deteriorated significantly over the years. In test, our fielding was always average though as we now have better bowling attack it is showing its ugly face
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  #31  
Old January 17, 2009, 12:10 PM
napoleonIV napoleonIV is offline
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I personally do not find anything to be too excited about. The trend observed in last two matches (win followed by a close loss) is nothing new. We have experienced such short string of success before where fans jumped with the joy of finally finding some consistency and then realized how premature their celebrations were. First example : 2007 world cup. We defeated two big teams and then got beaten badly by Ireland. We were in a very good position to snatch two wins in a row against India (when they came to visit us right after the World Cup) but failed due to miserable captaincy. We all know how consistent (!) our performance was in the following matches. Similarly, in recent past, we won one ODI against NZ and was very close to winning the following match. We also ran them close in the first test, only to fall apart in the second one. Same story goes for the recent test series against SL. From close to performing a mircale in the first test, we managed to get very close to follow-on in the second.

To summarize, my opinion is that we should not be under the illusion that our team has started to perform with some consistency just because we had two good ODIs in a row.
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  #32  
Old January 17, 2009, 12:39 PM
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AsifTheManRahman AsifTheManRahman is offline
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Apathetic, to a great extent. After having followed our cricket for seventeen years, only losses to minnows cause ant-bites in the heart. For everything else, there's a good night's sleep.

I'm more in the sit-back-and-see-what-happens mode these days, because I don't expect drastic changes.
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  #33  
Old January 17, 2009, 08:18 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AsifTheManRahman
Apathetic, to a great extent. After having followed our cricket for seventeen years, only losses to minnows cause ant-bites in the heart. For everything else, there's a good night's sleep.

I'm more in the sit-back-and-see-what-happens mode these days, because I don't expect drastic changes.
after all these years, after all these posts, we finally start to win some games (and get in even more winnable positions) and now your enthusiasm is waning?

i'm shocked!

it appears as though should bangladesh achieve parity with the top teams, our fanbase will dwindle to non-existance. it seems we the fans have become more interested in the journey to parity, rather than the parity itself.

very interesting...
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  #34  
Old January 18, 2009, 12:45 AM
checkmate checkmate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
Yes, progress is being made.

The stats are clear. Bangladesh has won 8 matches against G8 sides, and 7 of those matches have come since Boxing Day 2004 (i.e basically since 2005). Now that is exactly 4 years ago, and so we are winning an average of almost 2 matches per year against top sides. Certainly, that doesn't merit a shedding of our "minnow" status, but at the same time its better than what we've had before.

For those who don't think satisfactory progress is being made, I ask you what is satisfactory progress, and what internal reasons have we to demand that progress be made at that specific rate?

Knocking out our lone win against Pakistan in the 1999 World Cup as an anomoly or "fluke" win. We are left with 7 wins against top sides - 2 of them against teams ranked # 1 (Australia in June 2005, and South Africa in April 2007).

Total Wins = 7
Won coin toss = 4
Lost coin toss = 3
Home wins = 4
Away wins = 0
Neutral wins = 3
Batting 1st = 2
Batting 2nd = 5
Wins in Subcontinent = 4
Wins outside SC = 3
Day-Night wins = 1
Day wins = 6
Number of Teams beaten = 5
Number of Dead Rubber wins = 0

So we see that we have a pretty good variety in our wins, asides from not winning a match on the opposition's turf (a trend which could change this summer in the Caribbean). So the argument that Bangladesh can only win at home or in certain conditions and shouldn't be offered overseas tours is simply not true. It is also not true that Bangladesh can only win in meaningless situations where the series outcome is already decided. When we beat Australia it was their first Natwest Series match. The South Africa win came when both sides had mathematical chances of either qualifying or missing the World Cup semi-finals.

Wins By Calendar Year

2004 = 1
2005 = 1
2006 = 1
2007 = 2
2008 = 1
2009 = 1

Average/Year = 1.2 (only for completed calendar years)

Another way we can judge to see if we are making any progress is to see how many losses against top sides we usually suffer before our wins. I will start from June 2000, as this was the date we were elevated to Test status:

1st win = 48 matches
2nd win = 2 matches
3rd win = 8 matches
4th win = 6 matches
5th win = 3 matches
6th win = 27 matches
7th win = 4 matches

In graphical form:



There is an overall downward trajectory of this chart, although if you exclude the first data point, there is a more or less a steady average. Our job must be to continue to bring this average down as far as possible. Technically, we can't have it any lower than 1, so our target should be to make wins more regular, but increasing our overall winning percentage, which stands at around 11% against top sides.

Average once we won 1st match = 8.33 losses between any two wins against top sides.

Actually our winning percentage is about 10.7% against top sides, which is a win every 9 games. Personally, this not that bad, because before doing this research I would have thought our record was a win every 15 or 20 games.

As an aside, it is interesting to note amidst the current controversy surrounding the Ashraful captaincy, that his average of 15.5 losses between wins is markedly worse than Bashar's average of 6.4 losses between wins. In this regard, Bashar was a much better captain that Ashraful is now. However, Ashraful is bound to increase his record, and it will be interesting to see if he beat Bashar's record in the course of his captaincy.

Now lets look at yet another indicator of improvement, albeit a rather subjective one. Often, BC members entertain no realistic hope of a win, but rather are focussed on our very own cliche, "we need to show them a good fight." In other words, we are often more interested in not winning matches, but forcing the opposition to sweat long and hard before beating us.

So let us look at the "close" matches we've had so far. Now to make things a bit more objective I will venture with the following propositions:

1) A loss is close if the opponents have to bat 45 overs to reach their target

or

2) Lose at least 6 wickets

When we are chasing the criteria are:

3) We must chase to within 15% of the oppositions score


The following matches fall under the above criteria as "close" or well-fought matches since June 2000 (when we got Test status):

India 2003 TVS cup
Pakistan 2003
West Indies 2004
West Indies 2004
New Zealand 2004
India 2004
Australia 2005
Australia 2006
Sri Lanka 2006
England 2007
India 2007
South Africa 2008
Pakistan 2008
Pakistan 2008
Sri Lanka 2009

So there were a total of 15 ODIs which we lost but perhaps half of them could have easily been wins if we had held on to catches or had some correct decisions go our way.

So let us look at the proportion of "winnable" games as a function of time:

2000: 0/2
2001: 0/0
2002: 0/14
2003: 2/19
2004: 4/15
2005: 1/9
2006: 2/8
2007: 2/15
2008: 3/22
2009: 1/2

Or in graphical form we have:



It is evident that we have an overall upward curve to this, although there are dips in it. This is a good thing because before we can win matches, we must first get into "winnable" positions. We cannot win matches, if we're getting blown out routinely.
yours stats look good,but stats dont show the whole picture,it shows 2009 the percentae is 50 percent,but its just the beginning of the year,and only two matches were played,so it doesnt give the right idea,and even if we have won over seas matches,most of the overseas matches have been on the world cup,in a series there has been only one win against australia in a trinations series, and the match was played in england.bangladesh have won more matches or created better oppertunity in bangladesh when it has been a series.you have mentioned the pressure factor,the win against srilanka was the first win when bangladesh was under pressure.till then most of the wins were when the other team was under more pressure.

still good stats though,It does show improvement,but we need to pull our selves much better to get to winnable position and win matches, not just be in winnable position.
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  #35  
Old January 18, 2009, 02:03 AM
roaring tigerz roaring tigerz is offline
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In our test team we don't have a single batsman averaging 30. We also do not have a single bowler averaging under 30. That tells a story in itself. We have all seen the potential in our players. The Sakibs, Mushfiqs, and Shahadats have all the skills...but they are not there yet. They should have not been playing test cricket when they did. And playing in a team with no one to turn for guidance or with no prior history of success, has further slowed their progress. In a system fit to produce marutis we are expected to produce rolce royces. The Sakib's and Mashrafee's would remain the exception rather than the norm until the nuts and bolts of our cricket are repaired.

Last edited by roaring tigerz; January 18, 2009 at 02:45 AM..
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  #36  
Old January 18, 2009, 02:03 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checkmate
yours stats look good,but stats dont show the whole picture,it shows 2009 the percentae is 50 percent,but its just the beginning of the year,and only two matches were played,so it doesnt give the right idea,and even if we have won over seas matches,most of the overseas matches have been on the world cup,in a series there has been only one win against australia in a trinations series, and the match was played in england.bangladesh have won more matches or created better oppertunity in bangladesh when it has been a series.you have mentioned the pressure factor,the win against srilanka was the first win when bangladesh was under pressure.till then most of the wins were when the other team was under more pressure.

still good stats though,It does show improvement,but we need to pull our selves much better to get to winnable position and win matches, not just be in winnable position.
its true...but figure this, we have 8 matches this year against top sides, at least 8 matches are scheduled. 5 against pakistan and 3 against WIndies. realistically we should win 1 of those, that gives us 7 losses in addition to the 1 we have now = 8 total losses.

of these losses, at least 4 can be expected to be idiotic throwing away of wickets. playing at home against undercooked PAK side, we should manage to keep at least 3-4 games close, and 2 out of 3 should be close against WI. that means we could have 5-6 close games out of 10, a percentage of 50-60 percent keeping our curve up.

as far as overseas, yes we've only won neutral matches, but it shows the ability to play outside of the subcontinent. but you are right, we are definitely a stronger side at home. much stronger.

bangladesh was also under immense pressure in the india WC match, more so given the stakes than the last SL games.
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  #37  
Old January 18, 2009, 02:08 AM
nzfan nzfan is offline
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Bangladesh were shoved into test cricket and had to face adversities no other beginning test nation had.I think Bangladesh right now are where they should of been in 2000, they are at a crossroads and it would be incredibly disappointing if their test status was removed.
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  #38  
Old January 18, 2009, 10:02 AM
napoleonIV napoleonIV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
its true...but figure this, we have 8 matches this year against top sides, at least 8 matches are scheduled. 5 against pakistan and 3 against WIndies. realistically we should win 1 of those, that gives us 7 losses in addition to the 1 we have now = 8 total losses.

of these losses, at least 4 can be expected to be idiotic throwing away of wickets. playing at home against undercooked PAK side, we should manage to keep at least 3-4 games close, and 2 out of 3 should be close against WI. that means we could have 5-6 close games out of 10, a percentage of 50-60 percent keeping our curve up.
Wow. Interesting. I didn't realize Bangladesh has started to live up to prediction/expectation. I must have been following a different team.

By the way, I think we have seen similar optimism right after WC, when we defeated two big teams in the tournament and then went very close to winning another against India in Dhaka. We all know what happened after that. I hope this new level of optimism expressed by many do not meet the same fate.

Quote:
bangladesh was also under immense pressure in the india WC match, more so given the stakes than the last SL games.
I do not agree at all. In the WC match, there was not much expectation on Bangladesh to win. Obviously, there was the issue of progressing to super eight. But almost everyone (including the majority of BD fans) expected SL and India to progress from that group. So I do not think Bangladesh was under "immense pressure".
On the other hand, the match with the SL was different. BD's loss to Zimbabwe was a major disappointment. Unless BD could snatch a win with bonus point against SL, they would have had to be mere spectators in the final taking place in their own country. The repercussions would have been grave. So there was indeed "immense pressure" on the team in the match against SL, much more than it was against India in WC.
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  #39  
Old January 19, 2009, 01:12 PM
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AsifTheManRahman AsifTheManRahman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
after all these years, after all these posts, we finally start to win some games (and get in even more winnable positions) and now your enthusiasm is waning?

i'm shocked!

it appears as though should bangladesh achieve parity with the top teams, our fanbase will dwindle to non-existance. it seems we the fans have become more interested in the journey to parity, rather than the parity itself.

very interesting...
Well, at least now you know why.

One step forward, two steps back and three steps forward again. We're progressing slower than a snail and to be able to live through this so that he/she has enough left in him/her to celebrate when parity is achieved, the average fan has to be patient and, well, apathetic.
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  #40  
Old January 19, 2009, 04:33 PM
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Naeem bowls better than i though he would and also better than what his stats suggest
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  #41  
Old January 19, 2009, 06:32 PM
PlanetPak PlanetPak is offline
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I was surprised at the reaction after the defeat in the recent final vs SL because i thought BD were superb and are perhaps one good players away from genuinely challenging the top teams.
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