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  #51  
Old November 19, 2003, 10:32 AM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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"Islam is growing about 2.9% per year. This is faster than the total world population which increases about 2.3% annually. It is thus attracting a progressively larger percentage of the world's population."
Pompous, this only means that Muslims are not really fond of birth control - that's all. It has nothing to do with Quran being the choice of rational people. I am pretty sure that people's believe on God or his teachings tend to weaken as they get more educated. That is the general scene - there are specific examples which rebuts this idea. I will search for more elaborate stats when I am home and free.. Now gotta run and take a quiz..

Allah Hafez!
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  #52  
Old November 19, 2003, 10:40 AM
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Zobair Zobair is offline
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orph man!

if you look at the most populated Muslim countries of the world today...they are growing at 2.2-2.5% at the most! I am at work now...so I will furnish some data later on.
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  #53  
Old November 19, 2003, 11:08 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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In short they were better off before. So you can drop all the imperialist propaganda you heard about that country.

I hope you noticed my sarcastic tone.
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  #54  
Old November 20, 2003, 06:38 AM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pompous
orph man!

if you look at the most populated Muslim countries of the world today...they are growing at 2.2-2.5% at the most! I am at work now...so I will furnish some data later on.
Although it will be illogical to suggest that Muslim growth is .4% annually through conversions from the datas above, there is no reason to believe that People aren't converting to Islam. People ARE but then again people are also coverting to all sorts of religion when they are bored.

It's a shame that I didn't save the link to this data but in US, the top threat to Christianity does not come from any religion. It is from the non-believers/atheist. Jew and Muslim growth were about the same (0.7)

Now let's get back to the main point of Quran being the choice of rational people. I will consider rational people as those with higher education. Now please don't quibble over the meaning of rational now.

It is very hard to find datas (non-existant most likely) where they juxtapose Quran and rational people. Since Quran is the words of God, a person has to believe in God first in order to believe in his words. Take a look at this chart: (scroll down to table 2 - bottom of table 2)
http://65.54.244.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?...sp%3fPID%3d408

Code:
 Percentage that they are abso-bloody-lutely sure there is GOD.
High school or less
 %
 72
 
Some college
 %
 64
 
College graduate
 %
 63
 
Post graduate
 %
 53
 
You see the correlation here right? As people get more educated, they are turning away from God.

So what makes you say that Islam is the choice of more smart people whereas "smart" people think they are God themselves. So, I think the case is much stronger if you say that most of nonbelievers/atheist fall in the more rational category. I will call this group "Brights" :P

Here is an excerpt from an essay which will clearly show you that Islam/Quran is rather the choice of illiterates. Keep in mind, this is the world picture - not a particular nation unless mentioned.
Quote:
.....the Muslim countries. The average literacy rate is around 38 per cent and in rural areas in Muslim countries, the illiteracy rate among Muslim women is 93 to 97 per cent.....The mean rate for literacy for the Muslims is 35 per cent lower than that for the Third World, and 40 per cent below the worlds average......

The data suggests that almost two-thirds of the Muslims worldwide are illiterate....

Pakistan is the most advanced Muslim country in science and technology among Muslim nations. However, the literacy rate for Pakistan, home to the second largest Muslim Ummah in the world, ranks the lowest among the most populous nations, is even below the average for the Muslim nations.....
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

So pompous, please don't kid yourself when you think Quran is chosen by the intellectuals!

I still wanna see the conversion percentage of differenct religion. If anyone can find it.. share! All I know is conversion to Islam increased after sept 11 and it is high among Brits.

By the way pompous, your intriguing datas on white women (rational? HAHA), and undergrads are futile if there is no comparison w/ other beliefs.

[Edited on 20-11-2003 by Orpheus : url added]
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  #55  
Old November 20, 2003, 11:54 AM
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Nasif Nasif is offline
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The following picture was taken on Oct. 31, 1999. It is named "Cat's Eye Nebula", a dying star 3000 light years away.


[Quran 55:37-38] When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint. Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?

It is my understanding that the more knowledge we acquire about our universe, the more we will be forced to incline towards God.

String theory and (mem)brane theory creates a picture of universe that is too marvelous to be there by itself.
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  #56  
Old November 20, 2003, 12:11 PM
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Zobair Zobair is offline
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Orph! you score high on correlation studies but you are all muddled up on the cause n' effect front!


Quote:
Here is an excerpt from an essay which will clearly show you that Islam/Quran is rather the choice of illiterates. Keep in mind, this is the world picture - not a particular nation unless mentioned.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.....the Muslim countries. The average literacy rate is around 38 per cent and in rural areas in Muslim countries, the illiteracy rate among Muslim women is 93 to 97 per cent.....The mean rate for literacy for the Muslims is 35 per cent lower than that for the Third World, and 40 per cent below the worlds average......

The data suggests that almost two-thirds of the Muslims worldwide are illiterate....

Pakistan is the most advanced Muslim country in science and technology among Muslim nations. However, the literacy rate for Pakistan, home to the second largest Muslim Ummah in the world, ranks the lowest among the most populous nations, is even below the average for the Muslim nations.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These people didnot choose Islam because they were illiterate and backward...Islam came to them long long time ago during an era where Muslims were the most literate and forward and Islam was the dominant civilisation no?! Dude your arguement is flawed in this case on many fronts, that I can't even be bothered to go on. Just look at what the essay you took your quotes from was trying to achieve and what ideas you took away from it. This is indeed the classic "taken out of context". The article wanted to say, Muslims are backward today because of their illiteracy while they were advanced before because of their literacy while you chose to use some of the quotes to say Muslims chose Islam because they are illiterate!!!! dude!!!

And I don't buy that Pakistan is the most advanced Muslim nation in terms of science and technology either. I would say Malaysia is a better candidate, unless possessing nukes and advanced weaponry is your one and only criterion.

And about your correlation stats. Interesting but not the be all and end all. You choose education as a yardstick for judging rationality. fair enough! very very crude and, I am afraid most psychologists I have talked to would disagree with you but whatever! though dude but you should realise, education particularly higher education is dominated by western secular scholars and their points of views today. Why is that important? Because that means it is subjective and prone to possible change in outlook. Again, for example, in the past when people came to study at Islamic universities for higher education, I would imagine, the most rational (i.e. the most educated) were more convinced on the existence of God!!! The surprising thing for me is that in spite of the dominant secular trend in higher education some people choose to go against it despite consequences.

As for the white women bit...I am surprised at you?! Are you suggesting "white" women are not rational?!?!? what did you exactly mean by that? Anyways, my point was not about their rationality (or is it?), just that for many people the idea of white women giving up their "freedom" they enjoy in the west to willingly put on the shackles of Islam seems counter-intuitive, what with wearing the hijab (as most converst do) and not dating and no drinking and no (more) pre-marital sex etc. etc.

Anyways, I am done with this thread. I have a feeling its gonna degenerate soon into one of those "just for the sake of making one's point" threads! Lots of of talk little value. :P



BTW, how is your ramadan going orph? how is fasting?
[Edited on 20-11-2003 by pompous]

[Edited on 20-11-2003 by pompous]
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  #57  
Old November 20, 2003, 04:04 PM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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This is indeed the classic "taken out of context".
Pompous, I am sorry but this is not the Classical "taken out of context". I am well aware of all the arguments given by the writer but that's not what I am interested in, am I? All I needed was some facts and that's where I got it. Are those not FACTS that I provided?

You are however right that they did not choose Islam but Islam was rather chosen by default. These are the bulk that are actually increasing the rate of Islam. I believe they were following the words of Quran when they use no birth control, getting involved in polygyny, giving marriage to children while the child is still at teen. So, please don't tell me that if they had followed Quran "correctly", everything would be alright. That's just a silly blind faith. Had they used some judgement, if they were rational - they would actually know the complications that are involved in such practices. Sometimes being rational is actually going against Quran. Time changed man, and we should try to change accordingly instead of being the murkho fundamentalist that we are.

Quote:
You choose education as a yardstick for judging rationality. fair enough!
THANK YOU! I knew you were gonna say something about this :P

Quote:
in the past when people came to study at Islamic universities for higher education, I would imagine, the most rational (i.e. the most educated) were more convinced on the existence of God!!!
I am sorry. Eventhough your arguments were getting interesting, you just lost it here. Do you have any datas that the more rationals would be more convinced? Nice imagination though. And please keep in mind that the data you looking for is this: NON-MUSLIMS belief in QURAN during the Islamic era. Just belief in God wouldn't suffice here.

Quote:
As for the white women
Yes, this white women conversion is the latest fad. I am gonna take a guess (my last guess was true) and say that white women just tend to convert more - whether it's to Islam or Hinduism. They are just bored and want to show their open mindedness.... yes they are smart but that intelligence has little to do with choosing only Quran. Some of them are just intrigued by hijab - especially the ones with bad hair days! :p Besides Quran doesn't tell you to cover your head anyway ... (that's a diff topic)

Quote:
BTW, how is your ramadan going orph? how is fasting?
Mashallah, my fasting is going very fast. By the mercy of Allah - I have fasted all of them so far. Hopefully he accepts all our effort and give us strength to do more!

Allah Hafez!
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