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  #51  
Old January 13, 2018, 01:13 PM
SportingBD SportingBD is offline
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In New Zealand,

Soumya didn't play the first test. But in his second test..
Scored 86 & 36 (his 86 was the highest by a BD player)
in the three T20 (0, 39, 42) - Did better than most of our players.
played only 1 ODI, scored 1.

Didn't play the ODI matches in SA, but did well in T20I, was our best player.
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  #52  
Old January 13, 2018, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eshen
In last two years, ie since the England series, Kayes averaged 37.54 while Soumya averaged 15.2 against G9 teams. While Soumya had been flopping around, Kayes had three decent series against England, NZ, and SA.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

It's getting very annoying how blind Soumya fans still keep talking trash about Kayes. Even Mashrafe maintained a better average in the period than Soumya - that alone should tell you what a burden Soumya had been for the team.
Why did you pick the last two years? We all know Soumya struggled big time, no one is denying that. Why not show the last 3 years where Soumya has a higher average? Or overall average (34.53 vs 28.95)?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

Imrul, in his first 3 years with the team, averaged 27 in ODIs and after a decade, he has brought that up to a glorious 28.95.

Yes, he had some decent performance last 2 years, including the 100 against Eng (which btw is only his second ODI century. And came 5 years after his first). But comparing a 30 year old in his only stretch of good performances to a struggling young player is just ridiculous.

Why doesn't Soumya get the same patience and persistence and chances that Imrul continues to benefit from his entire career? What justification is there to continue to pick Imrul?
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  #53  
Old January 13, 2018, 01:22 PM
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^^It should be no brainer for any regular follower of Bangladesh cricket why I picked last two years. We had a big break in ODI for T20I WC, returned to ODI Sep/Oct'16 against Afghanistan and England (BTW, I excluded stats against AFG, otherwise Soumya's stats look even poorer). Picking the stats from that period shows our most current/relevant trend. Imrul was brought back in the team not as a favor, but because of Soumya's continuous failures till AFG series. Ever since than, Imrul has been banking well on the lease of life given to him despite how much Hathuru disliked him and favored Soumya.

As for why we accommodated mediocracy/chronic failures before but not now, I already answered that question in details in my previous posts.
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  #54  
Old January 13, 2018, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eshen
^^It should be no brainer for any regular follower of Bangladesh cricket why I picked last two years. We had a big break in ODI for T20I WC, returned to ODI Sep/Oct'16 against Afghanistan and England (BTW, I excluded stats against AFG, otherwise Soumya's stats look even poorer). Picking the stats from that period shows our most current trend.

As for why we accommodated mediocracy/chronic failures before but not now, I already answered that question in details in my previous posts.
nahhhh you picked the last two years because its literally the only way to make Imrul look better against Soumya. if you were serious about form, Imrul averaged 25 in 2017, which includes the ICC tournament. But whatever, I'm sure he'll turn it around before the WC in England. After all he's only 30 years old, he needs more time to gain experience.

I get you don't like Soumya, but dont go out of your way to justify Imrul - there is just no justifying the ridiculousness of that. Yea I get that we were a minnow back then, didn't have any other option, but that doesn't mean we have to continue with Imrul - this is just sunk cost fallacy.
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  #55  
Old January 13, 2018, 01:45 PM
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Imrul has been surviving on EDGES! Fact.
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  #56  
Old January 13, 2018, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankees
nahhhh you picked the last two years because its literally the only way to make Imrul look better against Soumya.
I actually like Soumya a lot, it's the blind hatred of Kayes from you Soumya fanatics that I find hard to digest. Anyway, I am done wasting time here, provided all the technical analysis and logical reasons I could think of. But, fanatics will be fanatics, they don't care about logic.
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  #57  
Old January 13, 2018, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eshen
I actually like Soumya a lot, it's the blind hatred of Kayes from you Soumya fanatics that I find hard to digest. Anyway, I am done wasting time here, provided all the technical analysis and logical reasons I could think of. But, fanatics will be fanatics, they don't care about logic.
yea yea yea you're absolutely right, the Imrul stats I've posted is completely made up, nothing more than my blind hatred. Can't wait to see Imrul get his 3rd ODI century over the next 5 years. Oh joy!
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  #58  
Old January 13, 2018, 03:49 PM
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Blind Imrul haters. He has been one of our better batsman of the recent past. Imrul also got dropped at Soumya's age and made comebacks and worked hard and made more comebacks. That is the nature of bloody international cricket. Soumya gets dropped now it is upto him to do well in domestics. It is that bloody simple. Don't bring Imrul into it and in the process discard Imrul's recent performance and try to convince everyone that Imrul doesn't deserve a spot because "oh look at him he got soooo many chances, he is 30yo blah blah blah bs".

Sabbir and Soumya have had such a prolonged run in the national team and also did not even deserve to have such a prolonged run. Heck based on domestic performances alone they should never have been selected in the national team in the first place. They should be counting their lucky eggs that Haturi gave them chances. They have been poor. Soumya besides in T20s has been a huge burden on the team and needs to seriously work on his technique.

Stats this. Stats that. I can pull up any stats and prove anything I want. If I want I can show you stats that Abul Hasan is a better batsman than Steve Smith. Imrul actually looked a world apart from Soumya in SA. Soumya can barely handle quality pace bowlers. Imrul can actually face quality bowling. Soumya looked at sea facing the likes of Rabada in SA but Imrul had the intent to take him on especially when they bowled short.

If I actually saw progress in both Sabbir and Soumya's batting I would have definitely acknowledged that. But they bat the exact same way since both their debuts. Zero progress. Soumya getting caught behind all the bloody time. If I was in the opposite team versing Soumya i know exactly where to bowl to him, short of a length outside off stump, and Soumya will get himself out.

And people talking about Imrul getting toooo many chances. Well yes obviously he is 30yo he has lived longer than Soumya and Sabbir so yes naturally due to age he will have had more chances. However Imrul at 30yo has played 70 ODIs. Sabbir at 26yo has played 46 ODIs. Soumya at 24yo has played 32 ODIs. You can see clearly that at the rate Soumya and Sabbir were playing games they would play waaay more than the amount of ODIs that Imrul has played. If Imrul does retire in 3 years or so he will easily pave way for players such as Soumya who would still be young (around 27yo) and have many more opportunities playing international cricket and would also be much more matured cricketers. But it comes down to them as to how much are they willing to put the hard yards.

If Soumya is good enough and hungry enough he will do well in domestics and make a comeback. Otherwise let the maturing senior batsman Imrul who has been doing well in the recent past be in the team and give hungry youngsters like Anamul another shot. I have been a big Soumya fan from day one. Heck I even met the guy before he was even known, I met him after his ODI debut v Zim, during the warm up games in Sydney of WC 2015. Told him I loved his batting style and he let out a cheeky smile. He signed my cricket bat as well.

So I too am sad that Soumya has been poor. But this is international cricket and Bangladesh are a different team from what they were many years ago. This is not the time anymore to give a youngster 70 ODIs to make him come "good". This is about picking the best and more consistent players.
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  #59  
Old January 13, 2018, 03:56 PM
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Not only that, past two years In ODI's alone Kayes has had one fifty+ innings against New Zealand in New Zealand(our lower/middle order f***** up that match), a century against England at Dhaka(again, our lower/middle order after Shakib f***** up that match), and one 50+ innings against South Africa in South Africa. One criticism for Kayes is that he has not delivered on world cup matches or ICC tournaments apart from a couple of matches in 2011 World cup.
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  #60  
Old January 13, 2018, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankees
Why did you pick the last two years? We all know Soumya struggled big time, no one is denying that. Why not show the last 3 years where Soumya has a higher average? Or overall average (34.53 vs 28.95)?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

comparing a 30 year old in his only stretch of good performances to a struggling young player is just ridiculous.

So People like Mike Hussey, Usman Khawaja, Misbah ul Haque, Shivnarayan Chaunderpaul, TM Dilshan, Michael Bevan would never warrant a place in Bangladesh!
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  #61  
Old January 13, 2018, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
So People like Mike Hussey, Usman Khawaja, Misbah ul Haque, Shivnarayan Chaunderpaul, TM Dilshan, Michael Bevan would never warrant a place in Bangladesh!
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  #62  
Old January 13, 2018, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
So People like Mike Hussey, Usman Khawaja, Misbah ul Haque, Shivnarayan Chaunderpaul, TM Dilshan, Michael Bevan would never warrant a place in Bangladesh!
On top of that I wouldn't call a 24yo a struggling youngster LOL. And on top of that he isn't struggling lol this is how he plays, he has serious flaws in his technique and was never ever a consistent player either.
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  #63  
Old January 13, 2018, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
So People like Mike Hussey, Usman Khawaja, Misbah ul Haque, Shivnarayan Chaunderpaul, TM Dilshan, Michael Bevan would never warrant a place in Bangladesh!
Makes zero sense. Don't cut/paste my comments and take it out of context. If you're gonna come out of left field and interject into a convo, understand it first.
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  #64  
Old January 13, 2018, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
Blind Imrul haters. He has been one of our better batsman of the recent past. Imrul also got dropped at Soumya's age and made comebacks and worked hard and made more comebacks. That is the nature of bloody international cricket. Soumya gets dropped now it is upto him to do well in domestics. It is that bloody simple. Don't bring Imrul into it and in the process discard Imrul's recent performance and try to convince everyone that Imrul doesn't deserve a spot because "oh look at him he got soooo many chances, he is 30yo blah blah blah bs".

Sabbir and Soumya have had such a prolonged run in the national team and also did not even deserve to have such a prolonged run. Heck based on domestic performances alone they should never have been selected in the national team in the first place. They should be counting their lucky eggs that Haturi gave them chances. They have been poor. Soumya besides in T20s has been a huge burden on the team and needs to seriously work on his technique.

Stats this. Stats that. I can pull up any stats and prove anything I want. If I want I can show you stats that Abul Hasan is a better batsman than Steve Smith. Imrul actually looked a world apart from Soumya in SA. Soumya can barely handle quality pace bowlers. Imrul can actually face quality bowling. Soumya looked at sea facing the likes of Rabada in SA but Imrul had the intent to take him on especially when they bowled short.

If I actually saw progress in both Sabbir and Soumya's batting I would have definitely acknowledged that. But they bat the exact same way since both their debuts. Zero progress. Soumya getting caught behind all the bloody time. If I was in the opposite team versing Soumya i know exactly where to bowl to him, short of a length outside off stump, and Soumya will get himself out.

And people talking about Imrul getting toooo many chances. Well yes obviously he is 30yo he has lived longer than Soumya and Sabbir so yes naturally due to age he will have had more chances. However Imrul at 30yo has played 70 ODIs. Sabbir at 26yo has played 46 ODIs. Soumya at 24yo has played 32 ODIs. You can see clearly that at the rate Soumya and Sabbir were playing games they would play waaay more than the amount of ODIs that Imrul has played. If Imrul does retire in 3 years or so he will easily pave way for players such as Soumya who would still be young (around 27yo) and have many more opportunities playing international cricket and would also be much more matured cricketers. But it comes down to them as to how much are they willing to put the hard yards.

If Soumya is good enough and hungry enough he will do well in domestics and make a comeback. Otherwise let the maturing senior batsman Imrul who has been doing well in the recent past be in the team and give hungry youngsters like Anamul another shot. I have been a big Soumya fan from day one. Heck I even met the guy before he was even known, I met him after his ODI debut v Zim, during the warm up games in Sydney of WC 2015. Told him I loved his batting style and he let out a cheeky smile. He signed my cricket bat as well.

So I too am sad that Soumya has been poor. But this is international cricket and Bangladesh are a different team from what they were many years ago. This is not the time anymore to give a youngster 70 ODIs to make him come "good". This is about picking the best and more consistent players.
To be perfectly honest, Eshen made a much more compelling argument than you have. All of the "Soumya this and that" doesn't explain why Imrul deserves a place in the team and why he continues to get a free ride.

soumya bad =/= Imrul good.
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  #65  
Old January 13, 2018, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BengaliPagol
If I was in the opposite team versing Soumya i know exactly where to bowl to him, short of a length outside off stump, and Soumya will get himself out.
He should work with his buddy Taskin to learn how to play square cut. It's puzzling how Hathuru could not help him out with this one shot. It also shows how his domestic coaches such as Sujon or Pilot are not up to the mark either.

It's always dangerous try to cut against the new ball. But if you gonna try to score, at least try the right shot!
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  #66  
Old January 13, 2018, 06:06 PM
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Our domestic structure (first class) does not allow a player to improve. Reasons?

1. Overflow of mediocre bowlers (pacers/spinners)
2. Poor standard of wickets (fails to test batsman technique)
3. Lack of quality local coaches (fails to spot players weakness/improve)

So how do we know if a player has improved their weakness? If they perform in domestic on flat wickets, do we assume that they have improved their weakness? players like Mosaddek heavily dominate our first class cricket, but he is widely known as someone who struggles against pacers (especially when their is slight movement), Mosaddek performing consistently in domestic should be used to select him?
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  #67  
Old January 13, 2018, 06:10 PM
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^^ That's a good point - it's hard to validate if a player improved or not based on domestics. A player needs to be called to the A-team or or the national team to make that validation.

However, if a player continues to struggle in domestics too, it's safe to say he has not improved at all.
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  #68  
Old January 13, 2018, 06:20 PM
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Talented players like Soumya should not be dumped in our domestics.
They should always stick around with the national team.

They need the coaching of good coaches (which Tamim/Shakib/Mushy for from Siddons).
Those senior players became who they are from proper coaching and yes hard work.

Soumya/other national team drop outs who do they get coaching from? My point is when it’s not national duty, Soumya etc can play in domestics. But when their are international let them stay with the team, work on their weaknesses. It’s easily possible to keep Soumya in the squad, doesn’t necessarily have to play in the XI.
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  #69  
Old January 13, 2018, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankees
Makes zero sense. Don't cut/paste my comments and take it out of context. If you're gonna come out of left field and interject into a convo, understand it first.
i think it makes perfect sense. let me add some more name

1. cameron white---at the age of 34 years 148 days recalled to australia team ahead of younger maxwell, darcy short, and other. do u think australia is shortage of talented young players?

2. pakistan: shoib malik, mohammed hafeez, azhar ali, zulfiqar babar, misbah, saeed ajmal, then ijaj ahmed, selim malik also recalled after long hiatus--- they were out but recalled. pakistan was never shortage of talented players

3. india recalled agarkar, yuvraj in the past

4. Australia---Tim paine, mattew wade, chris rogers, sean marsh (age 34) , stephen o keefe (33), brad hodge, brad hogg, adam vogues, nathan lyon, jason krejga, dirk nannes, ryan harris etc. australia was never shortage of talented young players

5. NZ--neil broom, brownlie, wagner, watling, sinclair, todd astle, chris harris, jeetan patel, luke ronchi,

6. there is plenty of example in england and west indies and srilanka team too

i dont think, any of those teams are lack of talented young players. we need a blending of new and old experienced inform players. its not right to discard or shut door for relatively older player , just because they are over 30. thats just my opinion
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  #70  
Old January 13, 2018, 06:48 PM
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^^thanks max100 for your excellent research and analysis .

Add to that, India also recalled Ashish Nehra (to be fair, he was neglected due to injuries more than anything). He was a brilliant bowler especially in the shorter formats.
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Old January 13, 2018, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max100
i think it makes perfect sense. let me add some more name

1. cameron white---at the age of 34 years 148 days recalled to australia team ahead of younger maxwell, darcy short, and other. do u think australia is shortage of talented young players?

2. pakistan: shoib malik, mohammed hafeez, azhar ali, zulfiqar babar, misbah, saeed ajmal, then ijaj ahmed, selim malik also recalled after long hiatus--- they were out but recalled. pakistan was never shortage of talented players

3. india recalled agarkar, yuvraj in the past

4. Australia---Tim paine, mattew wade, chris rogers, sean marsh (age 34) , stephen o keefe (33), brad hodge, brad hogg, adam vogues, nathan lyon, jason krejga, dirk nannes, ryan harris etc. australia was never shortage of talented young players

5. NZ--neil broom, brownlie, wagner, watling, sinclair, todd astle, chris harris, jeetan patel, luke ronchi,

6. there is plenty of example in england and west indies and srilanka team too

i dont think, any of those teams are lack of talented young players. we need a blending of new and old experienced inform players. its not right to discard or shut door for relatively older player , just because they are over 30. thats just my opinion
Thanks for adding to the list.

Now kindly explain to me how this is in anyway related to what the discussion was about. All the guys you mentioned justified their recall to the team. Cameron's selection was merited. He had tremendous numbers in domestics. Show me that type of justification for Imrul.
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  #72  
Old January 13, 2018, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportingBD
Talented players like Soumya should not be dumped in our domestics.
They should always stick around with the national team.

They need the coaching of good coaches (which Tamim/Shakib/Mushy for from Siddons).
Those senior players became who they are from proper coaching and yes hard work.

Soumya/other national team drop outs who do they get coaching from? My point is when it’s not national duty, Soumya etc can play in domestics. But when their are international let them stay with the team, work on their weaknesses. It’s easily possible to keep Soumya in the squad, doesn’t necessarily have to play in the XI.
There you go again, sounding like a broken record. Hathuru already tried and failed what you are suggesting to do with Soumya.

The whole point of having a bench player is that he will be ready to step up when a regular XI player goes out of form or get injured. Keeping Soumya on the bench had been only hurting us.

Let me try to juggle your memory how he has been burdening the team down for last 16 months or so: after his chronic failures in all formats, including domestics, Hathuru reluctantly brought in Imrul for the ODI series against England. Imrul had two good series against England and NZ, and seemed somewhat set as Tamim's partner. He then picked up a thigh injury. Hathuru sabotaged him further by making him field during a practice match in India even though the physio advised him to rest for the match. Hathuru then used the opportunity to bring back Soumya again, and again he failed in the ODI series in Lanka.

Hathuru then took both Soumya and Imrul to CT. He pushed Imrul down to #3, to accommodate Soumya, even though Imrul kept saying he is not comfortable at #3. Both of them failed in CT.

Hathuru still persisted with Soumya in SA. Tamim's injury meant we had no option but to let him open again. He failed again, whereas Imrul had a respectable series.

Only fools try to keep doing the same thing that does not work. Glad to see our team management had enough of that foolishness with Soumya.
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  #73  
Old January 13, 2018, 07:44 PM
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That's enough!!!!! (Mortal Combat)

+++

You'll know all this time I have backed Haturi and his strategies. Backed Sarkar till I couldn't back him anymore. I know we don't get talent like like him left and right. However, it was his time to sort things by himself. 24+ already should know cricket and what would keep him in the team.

I have belief in Sarkar. I think he has the talent to set ablaze the local leagues. If he can destroy Intl attacks at home field, WHY wouldn't he dominate local mediocre bowlers on those same field? SportingBD answer me that first?
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  #74  
Old January 14, 2018, 12:12 AM
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I actually like the advise Nannu gave Soumya before BCL - try to play a long innings. Soumya has plenty of areas he can score of, but a few that get him in trouble. In the longer version cricket, if he learns to be patient and play according to his strength, he can be one of our best Test cricketers. Unfortunately, he does not have maturity yet to realize what works or does not work for him.
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  #75  
Old January 14, 2018, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eshen
I actually like the advise Nannu gave Soumya before BCL - try to play a long innings. Soumya has plenty of areas he can score of, but a few that get him in trouble. In the longer version cricket, if he learns to be patient and play according to his strength, he can be one of our best Test cricketers. Unfortunately, he does not have maturity yet to realize what works or does not work for him.
Bangladesh Cricket is definitely in need of more genuine test batting options. so not a bad idea at all. One of the best ways to develop your technique is through the longer format.
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