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  #1  
Old January 8, 2018, 04:51 PM
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Default Picking players based on Form? Your views..

Are you a believer of picking players on form? why? Did you see the India vs. SA match? when Kohli said he picked certain players because they were in form? rather than someone who is suited in playing well in those SA conditions?

In couple of instances, we had this problem with Mahmudullah. Remember he was out of form before the ICC CT? had we picked players on form, we might have excluded him from the squad. The result of picking Mahmudullah as we all witnessed was magnificent.

Just wanted to get everyone's views on what you think about picking players on form? Soumya's exclusion based on form?
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Old January 8, 2018, 05:12 PM
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Generally, yes, you pick players based on their current forms. However, all the teams around the world give more leniency to a senior player when he is out of form, especially if the team is going abroad where conditions are unfamiliar to junior players.

Also, there are other ways to judge a player's form besides match stats. Riyad has been inconsistent through out his career, but technically he is sound now more than ever.

Soumya on the other hand has been struggling badly last one year or so reading the line-length of a ball, showing lots of hesitations whether to play on front foot or back foot. When you keep making elementary mistakes like that, it becomes easy for the oppositions bowlers to set you up, which has been happening frequently in his case. When a batsman does not have his basics right, generally the right course of action is to give him a break, send him back to domestics to work on his shortcomings.
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Old January 8, 2018, 05:13 PM
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That's how I pick my players in FromthePavillion
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  #4  
Old January 8, 2018, 05:39 PM
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Another issue with Soumya is that he still does not have the full array of shots. You would frequently see him trying to drive balls where he should be either letting it go or cut. He got away with that in his early days, but bowlers took notice of that eventually and started to exploit that weakness. When you're exposed like that, again, right thing to do is send you back to domestics and let you work on your shortcomings.
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  #5  
Old January 8, 2018, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eshen
Generally, yes, you pick players based on their current forms. However, all the teams around the world give more leniency to a senior player when he is out of form, especially if the team is going abroad where conditions are unfamiliar to junior players.

Also, there are other ways to judge a player's form besides match stats. Riyad has been inconsistent through out his career, but technically he is sound now more than ever.

Soumya on the other hand has been struggling badly last one year or so reading the line-length of a ball, showing lots of hesitations whether to play on front foot or back foot. When you keep making elementary mistakes like that, it becomes easy for the oppositions bowlers to set you up, which has been happening frequently in his case. When a batsman does not have his basics right, generally the right course of action is to give him a break, send him back to domestics to work on his shortcomings.
Why is it that some players tend to be in good form in domestics but can’t really translate that form in international cricket? Nasir Hossain? Imrul Kayes? In the past we had other solid domestic performers but they couldn’t replicate that form in international cricket?

Soumya on the other hand never really performs in domestic cricket. Isn’t their a way to back a player that is highly talented irrespective of his failures in internationals? Like some talented player who goes through a really bad patch?
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Old January 8, 2018, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportingBD
Why is it that some players tend to be in good form in domestics but can’t really translate that form in international cricket? Nasir Hossain? Imrul Kayes? In the past we had other solid domestic performers but they couldn’t replicate that form in international cricket?
The trick here is obviously be able to adjust to different pitches and bowlers. At home, our pitches are slower - the ball will not bounce as much after pitching, and will also lose speed. This limits a bowler at what lengths he can bowl, little bit of error here can be costly.

Say for example, Imrul like to pull. At home, he knows well (somewhat) at what lengths he can pull. When he goes overseas, balls from the same length will come at him a higher bounce and faster speed - he will have to adjust for it. Also, if the bowler is taller than bowlers he faces at home, he will also have to adjust for higher bounce the bowler may get. Sometimes it's not even about technique, but how well is your hand eye coordination - to make those adjustments fast. In this regard, he is not as gifted as his buddy Tamim.

Quote:
Soumya on the other hand never really performs in domestic cricket.
From what I understand, you have to be good at cross batted shots to be a prolific scorer in Bangladesh domestics, and that's where Soumya's weakness is. He needs to overcome his limitations.

Quote:
Isn’t their a way to back a player that is highly talented irrespective of his failures in internationals? Like some talented player who goes through a really bad patch?
Hathuru tried that for a year. He understood Soumya better than anyone else in the current coaching staff. At some point you have to call it quits and move on with some other option.
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Old January 9, 2018, 09:56 AM
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interesting insights Eshen. never thought of it that way. One thing that Stands out for Soumya is his timing of the cricket ball. he probably times the cricket bat on ball better than many many of his international counterparts from around the globe. I think in cricinfo there is even an article about it:

"Soumya Sarkar's shot in the dark"

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine...ry/841643.html

but that quality alone is not sufficient enough to succeed in international cricket. you need good judgement. maybe Soumya can go back and check video footages to see what worked for him in the past and what is he doing differently now that completely changed his game for the worse. Soumya does have solid ODI scores not only at home but also abroad against international quality opposition.
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  #8  
Old January 9, 2018, 10:10 AM
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Something I don’t understand about cricketers form.

A player can be in the greatest form of his life, yet a change to conditions can suddenly bring upon him the worst form of his life? How does form really work?

Like if you see Kohli/Sharma/Dhawan was in excellent form before playing against South Africa. But suddenly they seem to struggle? How does a form player or team suddenly go from being on top form to poor form? Very curious to know..
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Old January 9, 2018, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportingBD
Something I don’t understand about cricketers form.

A player can be in the greatest form of his life, yet a change to conditions can suddenly bring upon him the worst form of his life? How does form really work?

Like if you see Kohli/Sharma/Dhawan was in excellent form before playing against South Africa. But suddenly they seem to struggle? How does a form player or team suddenly go from being on top form to poor form? Very curious to know..
It comes down to technique. That's exactly why having proper batting technique is so important. that's exactly why players who have really good technique and experience and sound judgement is preferred over people who make Double centuries at will in their backyard but piss their pants against 140+ kph bowling. maybe that's why the likes of Naeem Islam and Tushar Imran don't quite make it to the next level, despite being the best of the best in BCL, NCL and all the other domestic first class competitions you can name in Bangladesh. Although I would argue, just for the sake of winning at home, I would include people like Naeem and Tushar Imran in test matches home conditions only. Bangladesh cricket has always made the sacrifice of "grooming for the future" and yet that future never really came at the expense of losing out on present.
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Old January 9, 2018, 10:19 AM
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I think there are a lot of players with good technique/temperament etc that struggled.

I don’t think Smith has a very good technique, but he has excelled so well.

Would like to know couple of good players you think have good technique etc that has excelled?
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  #11  
Old January 9, 2018, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
It comes down to technique. That's exactly why having proper batting technique is so important. that's exactly why players who have really good technique and experience and sound judgement is preferred over people who make Double centuries at will in their backyard but piss their pants against 140+ kph bowling. maybe that's why the likes of Naeem Islam and Tushar Imran don't quite make it to the next level, despite being the best of the best in BCL, NCL and all the other domestic first class competitions you can name in Bangladesh. Although I would argue, just for the sake of winning at home, I would include people like Naeem and Tushar Imran in test matches home conditions only. Bangladesh cricket has always made the sacrifice of "grooming for the future" and yet that future never really came at the expense of losing out on present.
If we use form to pick players, even lot of semi retired cricketers can play for BD.

Nafees/Naeem/Rajin/Tushar they mostly dominate first class cricket.

If form was used, shouldn’t they be included in the nats team?
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  #12  
Old January 9, 2018, 10:27 AM
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Also remember CT!

Pakistan had no chance. People wrote them off before tournament.
The team wasn’t in good form, their players not in the best form.

How did they suddenly find form?

What is this form?
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  #13  
Old January 9, 2018, 01:20 PM
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From the moment a bowler releases his ball, a batsman only has a split second to make his judgement calls. He will have to watch what grip the bowler using (for example, a pacer will hold his ball cross seam for a cutter or slower ball, and up seam for a regular delivery); whether his wrist position indicates any attempt to generate seam/swing movement; at what height he is releasing the ball from and at what length he may pitch it. You have to judge if you expect to see any lateral movement (swing, seam, cutter, spin) after the ball pitches; at what height, line, and speed you expect the ball to come at you after pitching; whether you're going to play it on front foot or back foot, with a cross bat or straight bat; how much mechanical force will you extract or just deflect it to the angle you want. While doing all those, you will have to maintain a mental picture of positions of ten fielders and place your shot in a gap (unless you're going for a six).

A batsman spends hours in nets to develop/maintain his techniques and reflexes so he can do all those things right in each delivery he faces in a match. For an inform batsman, you will see him making those calls right most of the times though he can make a mistake every now and then due to probability or a lapse of concentration (as used to happen frequently to Ashraful). For an out of form batsman, you will see him struggling to make those calls through out his innings, even though he may stick around and score even more than an inform batsman because of his persistence (a la Naeem Islam).

From what I hear, in the practice match, Soumya labored to score 18 runs. Eventually he mistimed a pull to a short delivery from Abul to the short thirdman. The selectors then made the call to send him back to domestics.

On the other hand, Anam only scored 24 in that match but he looked at ease while he was batting. Thus he was brought back to the ODI squad.

*Not saying the selectors made the calls based on that practice match alone. But this has been the trend for those two at recent times, the practice match affirmed it, and helped the selectors to make their calls.
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  #14  
Old January 9, 2018, 02:37 PM
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I guess we'll find out if the selectors made the right call on Anamul and some other questionable selections. From what I read, they gave a lot of importance on the practice match. I just think sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture when it comes to special players like Soumya Sarkar and Sabbir Rahman. They are rare to find in Bangladesh. The style of batting, how composed they look when on song, the class they show can't be matched by others. instead of booting Soumya, they should have kept him in the team. Our domestic has almost failed to improve any players in the past decade. When the player gets dropped from national team and they return they are average or worse than before. I don't remember a single player that got dropped and came back firing and improved their weaknesses.

Soumya should have been stuck with, like how we did with Shakib/Tamim/Mushfiqur etc, and we know Shakib isn't a consistent performer in domestics, especially with the bat. Yet we decided to stick with him, why? because he has something special, that's why they allowed him to have bad patches, because we expected him to come back strong for the next series or tournament after being in bad form for some time. I just feel we shouldn't waste special talents like Soumya by sending them to our poor domestic circuit.

Class players can come back to form any moment, any match.
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Old January 9, 2018, 02:48 PM
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The way I see it, though gifted, Soumya is an incomplete batsman at this point. He has lot of areas to work on:

- Need to learn to move his feet both against pacers and spinners
- Need to play square cut better
- Learn to sweep against spinners

It will do him world of good if he works on those things with BCB coaches. International cricket is not an easy place to learn and implement all those things, domestics is the right place for him right now.
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Old January 9, 2018, 02:57 PM
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Not sure about what you mean by BCB coaches? do you mean the local Bangladeshi ones?
Or like the internationals? if so, I completely agree. But how does he do that when his not part of the national team or any A team (considering we don't have many A tours)?

What this guys miss is A team tours. Lack of A team tours have been hurting us for a long time. Just look at our U-19 team, they lost three practice matches in New Zealand. For nearly more than one year, we had the U-19 team sitting home without a tour. Compare that with the previous U-19 batch, they had a lot more matches, especially at home. Someone needs to start understanding the importance of this tours for player development.

Our domestic cricket fail to give a good reflection of players improvement.
Even part time bowlers become genuine bowlers in our domestics.
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Old January 9, 2018, 03:13 PM
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Just look at the terrible form Kusal Mendis has been in.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/srilanka...er/629074.html

But what does Hathura do? he picks him for the tri series. Why?

I tell you this Kusal Mendis guy is super special. Might win SL the tri series.

Kusal Mendis is like the Soumya Sarkar of Bangladesh. Can be the difference maker.

Its so important to show trust in special talents and back them in bad times, work with them.
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Old January 9, 2018, 03:45 PM
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My view is, you should pick your players based on their look first.
If the bowler is a looker, batsman haa korey takiye thakbey aar bat kortey bhuley jabey.
If batter is good looking then, bowler ushtha khaiye run up-er somoi poriya jabey + Umpire beta-o out dibey naa + fielder-era fielding-er somoi catch drop korbey, aka mathai onno chinta asbey.

Good looking team at the end of the day, jitey gelo!
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Old January 9, 2018, 03:48 PM
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If you check North vs West Day 1 scorecard you would want both Ariful and Dhiman in Test squad.
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Old January 9, 2018, 04:52 PM
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Well your best players aren’t going to be out of form long so they should get picked anyway unless they are in terminal decline.

The players who don’t have secure spots, yes form should play a part in selection as well as conditions.

E.g. tamim is a given as opener especially in ODIs and tests but he has no secure partner and we have a bunch jostling for a spot I.e. liton, soumya, imrul, anamul so the 2nd opener spot can be down to form.

In saying that you still want players to get a consistent run. I think if you’re going to pick a player you probably need to get them at least 3 series before dropping them, especially in tests where generally BD just plays a 2 match series.
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Old January 9, 2018, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportingBD
Just look at the terrible form Kusal Mendis has been in.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/srilanka...er/629074.html

But what does Hathura do? he picks him for the tri series. Why?

I tell you this Kusal Mendis guy is super special. Might win SL the tri series.

Kusal Mendis is like the Soumya Sarkar of Bangladesh. Can be the difference maker.

Its so important to show trust in special talents and back them in bad times, work with them.
So, what's your logic here? Whatever Hathuru does is the right thing to do?

He persisted with Soumya, but could not bring him back to form. I am yet to see him bringing any player back to form. If the trend continues, none of those Lankan batsmen coming back to form anytime soon.
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Old January 9, 2018, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportingBD
Not sure about what you mean by BCB coaches? do you mean the local Bangladeshi ones?
Or like the internationals? if so, I completely agree. But how does he do that when his not part of the national team or any A team (considering we don't have many A tours)?
It can be BCB appointed coaches such as his BCL team coach, the HP unit coach, his BKSP coaches, or any other coach that he knows. Look at Australians - they don't wait around for Lehmann to tell them what to do, in their breaks they go back to whichever coach they prefer to work with. Tendulkar was known even to go back to his school team coach whenever he struggled with his basics.
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Old January 9, 2018, 05:14 PM
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Theoritically that would be the best way to go on about it. Apart from the senior core players, this should be the best way to choose the best XI. At the end of the day, experience does play a big part espacially when playing abord.
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Old January 9, 2018, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eshen
So, what's your logic here? Whatever Hathuru does is the right thing to do?

He persisted with Soumya, but could not bring him back to form. I am yet to see him bringing any player back to form. If the trend continues, none of those Lankan batsmen coming back to form anytime soon.
There are few things that go against Soumya quite unfairly due to a better time period in Bangladesh Cricket.

Tamim/Shakib/Mushfiqur all played for national team and improved, you can not associate domestic performances/coaching etc for the improvement of these players. Primarily the majestic four (including Mahmudullah), had a lengthy time with the national team. Hence they were able to benefit from extensive coaching. Now we now, they were not so consistent when they started, it took them years.

Soumya on the other hand went into the national team, and performed exceptionally well. The problem started when his performance declined, people started to question him. Not because his not a good player, rather because of the time we are in. Now you have other mediocre openers fighting to get into the national team. Had Soumya been in the previous batch (with Shakib/Tamim/Mushy) he would have been given a lengthy time with the class he has.

He is just a victim of the better time we are in. I don't think there is any other opening batsman in Bangladesh that is as good as Soumya is. Domestic performance is something that as I mentioned doesn't really reflect our players quality.

The approach Hathura took was the right approach. It is this kind of approach of trusting talented youngster that brought us quality players like Tamim/Shakib/Mushy. The problem here is because we are in a better time period fans are very demanding and want success very quickly. They don’t want to give them enough time. Like how the previous players were given lengthy time.
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Old January 9, 2018, 05:45 PM
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^^ All your arguments seems to be centered around Soumya's interest, not of the interest of the Bangladesh team.

If you're so concerned for him, as per Isam, quality of our domestics are much better than how it used to be 10 years ago. He will get plenty of opportunities in BCL and DPL to work on his shortcomings.

As for quality of other openers, they may not be as gifted as Soumya, but I don't think they have glaring shortcomings like Soumya do, that Hathuru or other opposition coaches can plan to easily exploit.
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