What Muslim school do you follow?

[Tigers_eye]

Hello BanCricFan,
I would like to start with saying Allah knows best. Anything wrong that I type is my shortcoming. May the Almighty forgive me for that (if I do).

I get what you are trying to say by "Allah commands us in the Qur'an, "Ask the people of knowledge (remembrance) if you dont know"." This does not mean one has to follow a madhab to gain knowledge. From sincere intention and hard work one can get the knowledge from Allah Subhanawa tala because he is the only one who gives the knowledge to whom ever he pleases. We are talking about real knowledge (how to become righteous) here not physics, math, computer science or biology. Certainly Allah Subhanawatala only prescribed one path to Muhammad (peace be upon him). So how come we are standing at a crossroad of four madhab and counting? Any sort of division in Islam is unwanted, does not matter even if they are tollerant among each other. May be the next generation will not be.

I also understand all the Imam's you have mentioned and the reasoning. Certainly they were among the knowledgable ones. However, I can garantee their work is not preserved as the holy Quran. Their deeds can not save me from the hell-fire either and their teachings may be reformed (I guess that is why we are having several madhabs) by now who knows how many times by others (followers).

It is the mercy of Allah which would be the only thing that can save me. I ask a question: Which madhab did Abu bakr, Omar, Usman, Ali (may be peace be upon all of them) used. I would like to follow their Madhab which was the similar and only madhab of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) who was like a walking Quran.

So one can see, all the time, we go back to where we have a direct link to the Almighty. That is the Quran where the Almighty speaks directly to us.

May be to you Madhab is the way to heaven. But from my understanding I don't need any Imam, priest to reach to my creator. We have seen other religion where priest hood gets in the way when they try to contact the creator of every thing.

Sohel bhai,
I didn't read the whole thing as of yet. But the part I read may be helpful for many BC members to understand what is meant by the straight path in the Holy Quran.

[Nocturnal]

ধন্যবাদ সবাইকে, আলোচনা ভাল হইতেসে।

[BanCricFan]

Dear Tigers_eye,

I think I've tried to convey the true spirit of Madhab to you to the best of my ability. I can only hope and urge that you will consider it sincerely.

I just wonder if you have read the article on "understanding the four madhabs"? From your reply I gather probably you have not. In that case, I urge you to read again. It will make any future dialogue much more productive as we will have some common understandings.

I do understand that you're trying to worship Allah subhana wa ta'ala ALONE without having any recourse to intermediaries. You should be applauded for that. But I put it to you- don't you think all those luminaries, the mountains of Islamic intelectual and spiritual legacy, the Aimmah (Imams/absolute mujtahids) I have mentioned in my last post had the same desire as you that they should worship Allah alone?? Perhaps, they didn't have as much Taqwa, wara'a, knowledge, wisdom, vision and sincerity as our blessed generation?

The mechanism of Madhab was in operation during the time of the blessed Sahabah (Allah be pleased with them) without it having a name. Just like the science of Tajweed wasn't known by its name during that blessed era. Are we to say that the Sahabah ikraam didn't know Tajweed? Of course, NOT! The same goes for the Arabic grammer. These sciences were formulated much later in a cohesive system (as we know them now). This is what Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad has expounded:

"Given the depth of scholarship needed to understand the revealed texts accurately, and the extreme warnings we have been given against distorting the Revelation, it is obvious that ordinary Muslims are duty bound to follow expert opinion, rather than rely on their own reasoning and limited knowledge. This obvious duty was well-known to the early Muslims: the Caliph Umar (r.a.) followed certain rulings of Abu Bakr (r.a.), saying I would be ashamed before God to differ from the view of Abu Bakr. And Ibn Masud (r.a.), in turn, despite being a mujtahid in the fullest sense, used in certain issues to follow Umar (r.a.). According to al-Shabi: Six of the Companions of the Prophet (pbuh) used to give fatwas to the people: Ibn Masud, Umar ibn al-Khattab, Ali, Zayd ibn Thabit, Ubayy ibn Kab, and Abu Musa (al-Ashari). And out of these, three would abandon their own judgements in favour of the judgements of three others: Abdallah (ibn Masud) would abandon his own judgement for the judgement of Umar, Abu Musa would abandon his own judgement for the judgement of Ali, and Zayd would abandon his own judgement for the judgement of Ubayy ibn Kab."

The people of knowledge (ulama of the highest calibre) has been described in the Holy Qur'an -amongst others- as "ulul albab"(deeply rooted in knowledge), "most God fearing" and "umara'"(leaders). There are numerous verses in the Quran which outline the importance of following and obeying scholars and the rulers put over us. I'll just quote one verse here,- " O those who believe! obey Allah, obey the Messenger and 'ulil amr' from you". The scholars of Tafsir have described "ulil amr" as leaders and scholars(ulama/Imams).

My dear brother in Islam, I'm not trying to convert you to my way of thinking, rather, desire the best for you! ...Madhab will not take us to Jannah but its an awesome tool for us to use in understanding and practising our Deen correctly. Which in turn may lead me and you to The Garden, insha-allah!

I'll wrap this up by quoting two paras from Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad:

"We might compare the Quranic verses and the hadiths to the stars. With the naked eye, we are unable to see many of them clearly; so we need a telescope. If we are foolish, or proud, we may try to build one ourselves. If we are sensible and modest, however, we will be happy to use one built for us by Imam al-Shafi'i or Ibn Hanbal, and refined, polished and improved by generations of great astronomers. A madhhab is, after all, nothing more than a piece of precision equipment enabling us to see Islam with the maximum clarity possible. If we use our own devices, our amateurish attempts will inevitably distort our vision."

"The edifice has stood for centuries, withstanding the most bitter blows of its enemies. Only from within can it be weakened. No doubt, Islam has its intelligent foes among whom this fact is well-known. The spectacle of the disunity and fitnas which divided the early Muslims despite their superior piety, and the solidity and cohesiveness of Sunnism after the final codification of the Shariah in the four Schools of the great Imams, must have put ideas into many a malevolent head. This is not to suggest in any way that those who attack the great madhhabs are the conscious tools of Islams enemies. But it may go some way to explaining why they will continue to be well-publicised and well-funded, while the orthodox alternative is starved of resources. With every Muslim now a proud mujtahid, and with taqlid dismissed as a sin rather than a humble and necessary virtue, the divergent views which caused such pain in our early history will surely break surface again. Instead of four madhhabs in harmony, we will have a billion madhhabs in bitter and self-righteous conflict. No more brilliant scheme for the destruction of Islam could ever have been devised."

Wa Allahu A'lam!

[BanCricFan]

Dear Sohel NR bhai,

You CANNOT have "God alone" without the Prophet, hence, the testimony of faith- "There is no diety except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah". Can one be a Muslim just by testifying the first part of the Shahadah? NO- thats the verdict of scholars of Islam- both Sunni and Shi'ah. There is a Ijma' on this matter.

I can only say you're treading a very slippery slope here and you should stop right there! What you're propagating here is outright dangerous, to say the least. I suggest you consider your stance carefully.

Peace!

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Dear Sohel NR bhai,

You CANNOT have "God alone" without the Prophet, hence, the testimony of faith- "There is no diety except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah". Can one be a Muslim just by testifying the first part of the Shahadah? NO- thats the verdict of scholars of Islam- both Sunni and Shi'ah. There is a Ijma' on this matter.

I can only say you're treading a very slippery slope here and you should stop right there! What you're propagating here is outright dangerous, to say the least. I suggest you consider your stance carefully.

Peace!

A serious threat.

I don’t respond to threats very well, no matter how well or ill disguised they may be across cyber or any other space. However, I shall try. So here it goes: -

1. Your misunderstanding of my intent, in light of everything in my post, clear things that can be explored without preconceived bias, is deliberate and malicious. I am disappointed but not really surprised at this point.

2. Provoking whatever that you’re trying to provoke by attempting to put words in my mouth is an old trick. A trick that by the infinite grace of Allah, does not work with me too often.

3. What in those posts threatens so much to threaten someone like me who advocates the Quraan and everything in it including the Shahadah?

4. My conscience is clear and I am ready to face Allah’s judgment anytime He wills, so in the final analysis, fear and paranoia-driven crypto-fascistic threats do not scare me. Give it your best shot my brother, I will pray for peace in your heart when all is said and done.

5. I am reporting your threatening post based on deliberate and malicious misunderstanding to the MODs.

I have nothing further to say to you.

[Nasif]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Dear Sohel NR bhai,

You CANNOT have "God alone" without the Prophet, hence, the testimony of faith- "There is no diety except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah". Can one be a Muslim just by testifying the first part of the Shahadah? NO- thats the verdict of scholars of Islam- both Sunni and Shi'ah. There is a Ijma' on this matter.

I can only say you're treading a very slippery slope here and you should stop right there! What you're propagating here is outright dangerous, to say the least. I suggest you consider your stance carefully.

Peace!

Do not haste to judge others. It is not our duty to judge rather spread the knowledge. If you have something knowledgeable to say, then just say it don't judge. Everyone has right to their own belief. If you do not agree, then just say "peace". This is the way God orders you to react if you are truthfully proclaiming His orders.

I will not elaborate too much on this issue, as it is quite sensitive in nature; and without previous Quranic study, one can easily start fierce argument. Only thing I will quote is one simple verse from Quran:

Sura: Al-Imran (3) Verse 18


Transliteration:
Shahida Allahu annahu la ilaha illa huwa waalmala-ikatu waoloo alAAilmi qa-iman bialqisti la ilaha illa huwa alAAazeezu alhakeemu

Literal:
God witnessed that He, (there is) no God except He, and the angels and those of the knowledge (He is) keeping up/taking care of with the just/equitable, no God except He, the glorious , the wise/judicious . (God and the angels and those of the knowledge witnessed/testified that there is no God except God alone.)

Translation:
GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.

This is the Quaranic oath for a muslim. Please carefully note how God categorizes the groups who know this truth. Only two groups, angles and among humans the knowledgeable ones. God didin't mention muslims, neither did he mention mumin, nor did he mention the righteous. Decide for yourself if you are in the category who recognizes the truth.

I don't have to go to any tafsir, explanations, mullha, ijma, fiqah or anything. Anyone can understand the meaning. If we are knowledgeable, we will accept this truth and not try to change or add to it. This is the correct shahadah as proclaimed by God. No one has authority to change it. There is no god but The God.

In the very next verse God orders us to surrender to this and become a muslim!3:19 - That truly the religion at God, (is) the Islam/submission/surrender

[Nasif]

By the way, please keep the discussion without pointing fingers at individuals. Otherwise we will have to close the thread. Many a topic has been discussed before on the line of religion and they were forcefully closed. As religious thread seems to degenerate very quickly. If this goes along the same line; we won't have any choice but to close it. Discussion should be about the topic, not about the person.

[BanCricFan]

I wrote:
"Dear Sohel NR bhai,

....I can only say you're treading a very slippery slope here and you should stop right there! What you're propagating here is outright dangerous, to say the least. I suggest you consider your stance carefully.

Peace!"

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
A serious threat.

I don’t respond to threats very well, no matter how well or ill disguised they may be across cyber or any other space. However, I shall try. So here it goes: -

1. Your misunderstanding of my intent, in light of everything in my post, clear things that can be explored without preconceived bias, is deliberate and malicious. I am disappointed but not really surprised at this point.

4. My conscience is clear and I am ready to face Allah’s judgment anytime He wills, so in the final analysis, fear and paranoia-driven crypto-fascistic threats do not scare me.

5. I am reporting your threatening post based on deliberate and malicious misunderstanding to the MODs.

I have nothing further to say to you.

Sohel NR,

Where do you see a (ill-disguised) threat in my post to "label" me with all those defamable adjectives. My post was a sincere- stern maybe- advice to a fellow muslim as this Deen is known as "Ad-deenun nasihah".

Your massive disproportionate reaction to my post [is unhelpful]. Do you have any reasons to be so [reactionary]?

My intention was to have a dialogue but ,obviously, there is no point in it now. I'll refute your initial -potentially blasphemous and deliberately misleading- post after Ramadan, insha-allah [].

Ma'a salamah!

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Allah commands us in the Qur'an, "Ask the people of knowledge (remembrance) if you dont know".

Obviously, if one knows then he or she isn't obliged to follow a Madhab. Let me put this in perspective- Imam Al-Ghazzali, Imam Muhammad As-Shaibani, Imam An-Nabawi, Imam Ibn- Hajar Al-Asqalani, Imam Ibn-Rushd, Shaykh Ibn-Al-Arabi, Imam Al-Bukhari, Imam Muslim An-Nisapuri, Imam At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Khaldun, Imam Ibn At-Taymiyyah et el followed a madhab, although, they all were "mujtahid mutlaq" (absolute scholars) by their own right. The prerequisites of "Ijtihad" (independent reasoning) are explained below by Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad who is a professor of theology at Cambridge University:


In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul (foundation of Islamic sciences)* laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself. These conditions include:

(a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;
(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;
(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];
(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;
(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;
(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);
(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah; (h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.

http://members.cox.net/arshad/newmadhh.htm

Many many thanks BanCricFan Bhai. You have done my job.

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by Nasif

Sura: Al-Imran (3) Verse 18


Transliteration:
Shahida Allahu annahu la ilaha illa huwa waalmala-ikatu waoloo alAAilmi qa-iman bialqisti la ilaha illa huwa alAAazeezu alhakeemu

Literal:
God witnessed that He, (there is) no God except He, and the angels and those of the knowledge (He is) keeping up/taking care of with the just/equitable, no God except He, the glorious , the wise/judicious . (God and the angels and those of the knowledge witnessed/testified that there is no God except God alone.)

Translation:
GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.

This is the Quaranic oath for a muslim. Please carefully note how God categorizes the groups who know this truth. Only two groups, angles and among humans the knowledgeable ones. God didin't mention muslims, neither did he mention mumin, nor did he mention the righteous. Decide for yourself if you are in the category who recognizes the truth.

Jazakumullahu khairan jaza, Nasif bhai! I hope people will pay heed to what you've outlined here so succinctly!

No, my intention isn't to be hasty in pronouncing judgements on others. I'm perfectly aware that I'm not a mufti and its not my job. This is one of the first lessons we are taught in Usul-al-fiqh. I'm also mindful of the holy verse, "And you shall not be questioned about the action of the others (what they used to do)"

Thanks for the reminder, though!

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by BD-Shardul
Many many thanks BanCricFan Bhai. You have done my job.

You're most welcome, bro! Hugs, all around!

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by Nasif

Sura: Al-Imran (3) Verse 18


Transliteration:
Shahida Allahu annahu la ilaha illa huwa waalmala-ikatu waoloo alAAilmi qa-iman bialqisti la ilaha illa huwa alAAazeezu alhakeemu


Translation:
GOD bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge. Truthfully and equitably, He is the absolute god; there is no god but He, the Almighty, Most Wise.

Which website are you using for the Quranic referrences?

[Kabir]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
You're most welcome, bro! Hugs, all around!

Amgo re baad diya apnara hug-a hug-i kortasen? Khub kharap, khub kharap.

[Nasif]

Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Which website are you using for the Quranic referrences?

This is from http://yaqb.org (yet another Quran browser).

[cluster11]

This is a good discussion. I'm no expert in Islam but have a historical interest in all things religion. One thing I didn't understand is why one poster tried to emphasize strict adherence to this "madhab" when he himself mentioned that it is a tool to understand and follow Islam, not a requirement itself. Trying to promote this among other muslims as a great tool to practice the religion is understandable. Trying to label others as part of one madhab or the other or emphasizing that they must do so because they are too naive to follow the religion seems naive in itself. But then again, I've seen so many "born again Christian" examples of hypocracy in U.S. it won't surprise me if this type of movement wins a lot of followers. Whether that scores plus points for such muslims on the judgement day remains debatable.

[Sohel]

Being accused of "blasphemy" for propagating the Holy Quraan and ONLY the Holy Quraan from those who set up scholars and imams as de facto partners with Allah - scholars and imams who took it upon themselves to give authority to the Sunnah and the Hadith ALONGSIDE the authority of Allah and His Messenger as revealed and FULLY CONTAINED in the Holy Quraan is hardly surprising at all.

"...We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters/muslims." (16:89)

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a judge, when He revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED? (6:114)

"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE in truth & justice." (6:115)

"Say (O Muhammad), 'Whose testimony is greater?' Say, 'God is the witness between me and you that THIS QURAN was given to me to preach it to you, and to whomever it reaches.' However, you certainly bear witness that you set up other gods beside. Say, 'I will never do what you are doing; I disown your idol-worship.'" (6:19)

"When our verses are recited for them, those who do not expect to meet us would say, 'Bring a Quraan other than this, or change it.' Say (O Muhammad), 'I cannot change it on my own initiative. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of a terrible day.' ...Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or rejects His revelations? The guilty never succeed. Yet, they idolize beside God those who possess no power to harm them or benefit them, and say, 'These are our intercessors with God.' ...such is idol-worship." (10:15-18)

"The followers will say to their leaders, "It was you who schemed night and day, then commanded us to be unappreciative of GOD, and to set up partners to rank with Him." They will be ridden with remorse, when they see the retribution, for we will place shackles around the necks of those who disbelieved. Are they not justly requited for what they did?" (34:33)

"Why do they not study the Quraan? Or are their locks on their hearts?" (47:24)

"When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?. The example of those who reject is that of one who repeats what he hears of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand." (2:170-171)

"And who is more wicked than one who is reminded of his Lord’s verses but he turned away from them, and he forgot what his hands had done. We have made veils upon their hearts from understanding them, and a deafness in their ears. And if you invite them to the guidance, they will never be guided." (The Message 18:57)

A gentle reminder …

"Say, 'To God belongs ALL INTERCESSION. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, then to Him you will be returned.' When GOD ALONE is advocated, the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter shrink with aversion. But when idols are mentioned along with Him, they become satisfied." (39:45)

"Spend from our provisions to you before a day comes wherein there will be no trade, no nepotism, and NO INTERCESSION." (2:254)

"Beware of the day when no soul will help another soul, no ransom will be accepted, NO INTERCESSION will be useful, and no one will be helped."
(2/123)

We are responsible for our own actions …

"That is because God was not to change anything He bestowed to a people, unless they change what is in themselves. God is Hearer, Knowledgeable." (The Message 8:53)

[Sohel]

For those not duly familiar with Quraanic Arabic, here are a couple of links to the Holy Quraan translated in easy to understand English. Any useful, linguistic, semiotic or otherwise erudite critique is most welcome.

http://www.geocities.com/masad02/

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/

A gentle reminder: purely dogmatic jingoism masquerading as "debate" or "dispute" without proper erudition only leads to further embarrassment of all involved. It is sad to try and "refute" what one hasn't examined in detail or in good faith without angry and bitter preconceptions ...

[Moshin]

If you see how people pray in Saudi Arabia, they raise thier hands before bowing down, and they move thier finger, when reading attahi..., these people follow the Islamic law of Salafism, this new law says they are following the teachings of the Sunnah when Islam was created, it was created by students in Egypt, where they have discovered the true ways of prayer and religion (Wikipedia, Salafism), but if you look at how people read in the sub-continent, we have knowledge from our ancestors who are derived from the time when Islam was in Bangladesh, like the Delhi arrivers and Hazrat Shah Jalal, who is from Yemen, born from a Turkish background, it is basically logical for us to learn how the Saudi's read, because this is the birth place of Islam, and where sources are very true, but all across the sub-continent how can the teachings be true, we have to justify our knowledge of Islam, and think are we following the right meaning. But for some reason I do not want to follow this passage, for some reason I dont know?

[Moshin]

So in conclusion we have decided that the true school of taught is....???

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by moshin_31
So in conclusion we have decided that the true school of taught is....???

... by our Parar Moulovi Shaheb.

[Moshin]

Originally Posted by Fazal
... by our Parar Moulovi Shaheb.

now who is it that

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by moshin_31
now who is it that

I forgot his name. But he is the hujur shaheb who used to live in ex superstar Shabana's house and teach arabic/quaran to the kids in the neighborhood. But most of the time he used to snore as we studied.

[Moshin]

Originally Posted by Fazal
I forgot his name. But he is the hujur shaheb who used to live in ex superstar Shabana's house and teach arabic/quaran to the kids in the neighborhood. But most of the time he used to snore as we studied.

So what has he taught you guys about the school of taught (which one?)

[DJ Sahastra]

Speaking only as me and without a context of any particular religion, i believe that variance and variation in religious practices within the adherent of the same religion is a not necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't corrupt the very essence or the core values of that religion.

Variations often lead to diverse practices and often helps absorb/accomodate local customs and traditions versus an absolute practice which calls for wiping out all signs of anything that doesn't adhere to a prescribed set of practices - and in the essence aims to homogenise.

To an extent, difference in interpretaions are a good thing because when they are not creating chaos, they are tool for healthy dialogues and also encourage tolerance to a different view.

[Moshin]

Originally Posted by DJ Sahastra
Speaking only as me and without a context of any particular religion, i believe that variance and variation in religious practices within the adherent of the same religion is a not necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn't corrupt the very essence or the core values of that religion.

Variations often lead to diverse practices and often helps absorb/accomodate local customs and traditions versus an absolute practice which calls for wiping out all signs of anything that doesn't adhere to a prescribed set of practices - and in the essence aims to homogenise.

To an extent, difference in interpretaions are a good thing because when they are not creating chaos, they are tool for healthy dialogues and also encourage tolerance to a different view.

There's not many conflicts between different muslim schools around the world,
mainly there are conflicts between the sunni's and the shia's only, but not with
the school of taught, so yeah it does make practice in religion much more easier
to follow, but there are over 4 of them in the sunni factor (mentioning the sunni factor, because of majority) and people sometimes get really confused which is the right one, some of them step away from the Sunnah, with different rules and regulations applying when practicing with such a school, that is why people get really confused on which is the right one, im confused on which school i must or should follow at the moment, because of the number of schools??? (currently hanafi)