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  #101  
Old July 7, 2008, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabir
For some strange reason, the smartest man in this forum was the first to know that:

1. Before JS was hired - that he's the BEST option there is
2. After he is hired - that he's full of BS

I'm left with only one thing to do...stand in the crowd and applaud each of his findings.
One is allowed to change his mind. Nothing wrong with it. And no I'm sure I'm not the target of this biting sarcasm.

But here's my rejoinder to those who compare JS to Mohsin Kamal. Really? I mean really??? You are comparing Jamie to a guy whose only coaching suggestion was "ball sidha khelo?". A guy who supervised an embarrassing loss to Canada? Stats can be twisted and presented to all support all sorts of conclusions. Can you guys really say you find all evidence pointing Jamie to be a Mohsin????

Say what you will of the present bunch but they have clearly laid to rest any talk of "well BD is the same as Associates". We have clearly shown that if we are "2nd tier" then they are a distant 3rd tier. If we were really as messed up as people think we are than Ireland or UAE would have left us with some explaining to do. They didn't! Ireland's win against us in the WC is the sole aberrant to our recent dominance against Associates.

I know some anticipated the WC to be a harbinger of an upward trajectory. ( Full disclaimer - I thought the WC would be a precursor to more _consistent_ performance and not the 2nd coming of Lanka) In hindsight our expectations were way out of whack.

Our one win was against the team that brings out the best in us (with their big-brotherly attitude) right after the team had been shaken up by a terrible tragedy. A tragedy that inspired the team's mercurial pace-head to bowl a dream spell the likes of which he has not repeated since. The win was cemented by a batsman for whom the opponent clearly had NO GAMEPLAN

Our other win was on a pitch that could have been imported from Dhaka and on a day when Eid, Christmas and Durga Puja all came at once and we had the tantalizing glimpse of a BD side when the AA batteries sparkle.

Other than that, we lost to every match on bouncy pitches, were badly beaten by all the major sides and even threw in a loss to Ireland.

Soon after we lost to age, two of our most reliable campaigners in Rafique and Bashar.

Really, if you think about it, there was nothing about our WC performance that indicated that anything had changed except the team's self-belief.

But self-belief when combined with poor skills will lead to only occasional wins. Great skills on the other hand will inherently lead to self-belief. And Skills + Self Belief will lead to REGULAR wins.

I see the present BD side and I see a side that is consciously trying to learn its game. Introspection can be painful, as the parent of any teen-ager can attest to. For this reason only I'm willing to overlook Jamie's obvious flaws as a first-time coach (poor communication, inability to manage perceptions, etc.)

Give him some more time I say ... Jamie ain't no Mohsin. You can take that to the bank!
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  #102  
Old July 7, 2008, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Okay, let us look at the team Siddons inccured. Were you talking about the same confident players who gave up without any type of fight against India and SL series in 2007.
How come those players were whitewashed, out played, as$ kicked? Why couldn't all conquring BD team (lost to Ireland), put up a fight against India or SL? How come they couldn't win against them?
What did the million dollar coach do? Which finger he was sucking? Thumb?

The writing was on the wall and perhaps you and others failed to notice.

At least in 2003, the team had more experienced players who knew their limitations. These jokers (well, in journalists terms "dashing strokemakers") don't even know how bat properly.

Seriously, it is GIGO. the standard of our cricket is not what you think we are at. Raqibul and Shakib can not score 50 in every game. Even in dead tracks. Garbage has been sitting and rottening in our team for a long time with 20 averages. Expecting a 50 average is unrealistic unless Siddons can change them in to Gem. he is taking the team in to the right direction. We have be patient and wither the storm a little bit more.
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Introducing four against SA. Yet we had them in the first test didn't we? Deadwoods must be thrown out first.
wow! tigers-eye bhai, thou speak the truth!
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  #103  
Old July 7, 2008, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akabir77
লেখা পরে চখে পানি চলে এলো । চমৎকার লিখেচেন বড সাদরুল ভাই ।
i second that! very nice, shadrul bhai!
tobe #3 shmadhan amar kache ache! apne tabiz-toomar-er kotha bolen nai. cheletar kono jeen-er asor dhorse kina ke jane! pora pani-te kaaj hoteo pare! 25 years old man, khete chaina, eta ki bolen?
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Last edited by bujhee kom; July 7, 2008 at 11:43 PM..
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  #104  
Old July 8, 2008, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
But self-belief when combined with poor skills will lead to only occasional wins. Great skills on the other hand will inherently lead to self-belief. And Skills + Self Belief will lead to REGULAR wins.
RazabQ bhai! You explained it so lucidly in just three lines, and summarised all my posts in this thread.
You have become one of my favourite members as well!

Last edited by israr; July 8, 2008 at 01:08 AM..
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  #105  
Old July 8, 2008, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
One is allowed to change his mind. Nothing wrong with it. And no I'm sure I'm not the target of this biting sarcasm.

But here's my rejoinder to those who compare JS to Mohsin Kamal. Really? I mean really??? You are comparing Jamie to a guy whose only coaching suggestion was "ball sidha khelo?". A guy who supervised an embarrassing loss to Canada? Stats can be twisted and presented to all support all sorts of conclusions. Can you guys really say you find all evidence pointing Jamie to be a Mohsin????

Say what you will of the present bunch but they have clearly laid to rest any talk of "well BD is the same as Associates". We have clearly shown that if we are "2nd tier" then they are a distant 3rd tier. If we were really as messed up as people think we are than Ireland or UAE would have left us with some explaining to do. They didn't! Ireland's win against us in the WC is the sole aberrant to our recent dominance against Associates.

I know some anticipated the WC to be a harbinger of an upward trajectory. ( Full disclaimer - I thought the WC would be a precursor to more _consistent_ performance and not the 2nd coming of Lanka) In hindsight our expectations were way out of whack.

Our one win was against the team that brings out the best in us (with their big-brotherly attitude) right after the team had been shaken up by a terrible tragedy. A tragedy that inspired the team's mercurial pace-head to bowl a dream spell the likes of which he has not repeated since. The win was cemented by a batsman for whom the opponent clearly had NO GAMEPLAN

Our other win was on a pitch that could have been imported from Dhaka and on a day when Eid, Christmas and Durga Puja all came at once and we had the tantalizing glimpse of a BD side when the AA batteries sparkle.

Other than that, we lost to every match on bouncy pitches, were badly beaten by all the major sides and even threw in a loss to Ireland.

Soon after we lost to age, two of our most reliable campaigners in Rafique and Bashar.

Really, if you think about it, there was nothing about our WC performance that indicated that anything had changed except the team's self-belief.

But self-belief when combined with poor skills will lead to only occasional wins. Great skills on the other hand will inherently lead to self-belief. And Skills + Self Belief will lead to REGULAR wins.

I see the present BD side and I see a side that is consciously trying to learn its game. Introspection can be painful, as the parent of any teen-ager can attest to. For this reason only I'm willing to overlook Jamie's obvious flaws as a first-time coach (poor communication, inability to manage perceptions, etc.)

Give him some more time I say ... Jamie ain't no Mohsin. You can take that to the bank!
You explained it beautifully.

I hope some people who have tons of posts but very little cricketing intellect will get back some senses and not post utter rubbish about JS.
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  #106  
Old July 8, 2008, 04:08 AM
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Jamie is no Mohsin Kamal, but he is taking BD cricket to Mohasin Kamal's age and that's what is annoying.

If he wanted to build a consistent Bangladesh team, he could have strated from where Dav had left. There was no reason to take us back to the dark age and start from scratch.

It's very easy to destroy and it's far more difficult to build. Jamie succeeded in doing the first one and we are anticipating that he would be able to execute the second part.

I personally don't see that's happening anytime soon with his defeatist approach.
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Last edited by Miraz; July 8, 2008 at 04:32 AM..
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  #107  
Old July 8, 2008, 04:31 AM
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A good post by RazabQ, but you forgot to mention the WC game agianst England, a match we came very close to winning.

Miraz bhai if, as you predict, another 4 months of siddons does result in further losses then it's perfectly fair to start thinking about sacking him. Right now though we should give him that chance. chopping and changing a coach just when you've started getting used to him will have a detrimental affect on the players.

Other fans have rightly pointed out that there have been some improvements. we don't lose to associate sides anymore (or at least I hope we dont!) and this is as importnatn in our develoment as beating the major sides.

It's also about luck and circumstance. If we had played NZ in ODIs in BD then i think we may have won a few. In fact i think we'd have a good chance of beating England, West Indies and NZ in BD if we had the chance. However, as luck would have it we've played SA in BD (a very strong side, and even then we almost won the 1st test) and Ireland in BD. Other than that it's been NZ in NZ and pakistan in Pakistan.

It might be painful, but I think our policy for now should be "wait and see"...
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  #108  
Old July 8, 2008, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abu2abu
Other fans have rightly pointed out that there have been some improvements. we don't lose to associate sides anymore (or at least I hope we dont!) and this is as importnatn in our develoment as beating the major sides.
Abu bhai, it was achieved during Dav Whatmore's era. We didn't lose to any associates or Zimbabwe in the last two years under Dav Whatmore.

I can't see how Siddons can get any share of the credit.
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  #109  
Old July 8, 2008, 04:58 AM
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whatmore dealt with players like ashraful and aftab poorly in terms of developing them as players, this is why siddons has to go to such measures to fix them and why it's taking so long. if whatmore had done it siddons wouldn't have to be doing it now, and it would have been easier for whatmore to have done it because now they've got this set way of thinking and playing which needs changing, if whatmore had done it he wouldn't of had that to deal with.

ashraful and aftab and other talented players came into the mix during whatmore era, and where are they now? nowhere, certainly dav had a lot more influence over their careers than siddons has to date.
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  #110  
Old July 8, 2008, 05:04 AM
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cant agree with miraz bhai. JS should given more time. He has the capability. our boys have probe to commit 100%.
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  #111  
Old July 8, 2008, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
Abu bhai, it was achieved during Dav Whatmore's era. We didn't lose to any associates or Zimbabwe in the last two years under Dav Whatmore.

I can't see how Siddons can get any share of the credit.
Good point miraz bhai.

On a separate point Gowza is right to say, by dav's own admission, he did not get the best out of aftab and Ash. If siddons can do this it will be quite an achievment!
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  #112  
Old July 8, 2008, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
Abu bhai, it was achieved during Dav Whatmore's era. We didn't lose to any associates or Zimbabwe in the last two years under Dav Whatmore.

I can't see how Siddons can get any share of the credit.
Who said we were not beaten by any associates or Zimbabwe in his last two years??? We lost a series against a very weak Zimbabwean side in 2006 and it clearly shows how inconsistent we were during Dav's era. We did have some wins against the top sides and those were obviously not flukes. But we should also see how many times we were bowled out for just 75-125 runs. Being one of the biggest Dav's fan here i still think we should give JS some more time because we can't expect a team to win only once in a blue moon after playing test for almost a decade.

Bangladesh in Zimbabwe ODI Series, 2006
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  #113  
Old July 8, 2008, 07:52 AM
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Thanks Razi for correcting me.

However, we didn't lose any match against the associates and we managed to beat Zimbabwe in every other occasions after that away series.
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  #114  
Old July 8, 2008, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
If he wanted to build a consistent Bangladesh team, he could have strated from where Dav had left. There was no reason to take us back to the dark age and start from scratch.
I thought he did at first, 'team rule', 'target above 200' didn't come until we got thrashed against NZ, SL and SA. May be I am wrong about SA, but so far I can remember there wasnt any talk of 'team rule' or 'target 200' when we played against NZ and SL. Instead he kicked out Javed, and later Bashar hoping to bring out maximum from the team that Dev left, adding couple of promising young. I consider this change as his first approach, which later shifted to 'let's play basic' mode, after horrible performance against NZ, SL and SA I guess ( e.i. team rule or play full overs, or target 200+ etc. to achieve consistency )

So, in that sense I thought he did started where Dev had left. But sadly enough the result yet to come.
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  #115  
Old July 8, 2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
... But self-belief when combined with poor skills will lead to only occasional wins. Great skills on the other hand will inherently lead to self-belief. And Skills + Self Belief will lead to REGULAR wins.
Beautifully put and truer words were rarely posted anywhere. SUPERB post over all ...

BUT, where's are those batting skills we rightly expected under Siddons? The last time I checked it's still pretty much business as ususal when it comes to our basic batting issues.

For example: -

We still cannot 1) find gaps and rotate the strike with ease, 2) play higher percentage ground strokes in the V, and 3) demonstrate the ability to "play each ball according to its merit", rather than just try and "play out the overs to salvage an honorable defeat", often without much success as expected from such a defeatist mindset.

Last but not least, I don't see us dealing any better with extra bounce, or swing, or pace, or movement, or spin any better. Well-scripted quality doosras and googlies still get us out 9 out of 10 times.


He may have added to the way Tamim, Shakib, Nirala, and Alok were already batting in NCL 2007 BEFORE he came into the scene, but how do you explain the way Ash, Aftab, Zunaed and Dhiman left or blocked juicy and easily drivable deliveries for the sake of "team rules"?

Which bangladeshi batsman picks up the line of delivery better than they used to since NCL 2007, and plays though it with better footwork and a straighter bat? Surely not Md. Nazimuddin, but that must be his own fault, right ?!

It must be just A-okay to take credit when someone succeeds but pass the buck when others fail.

"Transition is tough" but how much more time does he need, apparently there's always time to take untimely vacations, before everyone simply opens their eyes and sees this "bad hire" for what it truly looks like from here? And who will pay for this dodgy generosity and why ?

BTW, close to 50% of his 2-year contract, with TWO vacations already, has expired. I didn't know that ANY transitional period was the same length as 50% of the entire time in the contact, or perhaps even all of it.

We can either let the "input" match our "expectations" or look at Siddons for what he really is. A former assistant Coach who is not nearly as smart as he thought he would be in these untamed, savage lands as another Orientalist Gora Shaheb lording over primitive Bangladeshis and their passionate fans before heading home with their money, and a perhaps few anecdotal experiences for his memoires.

Quote:
Give him some more time I say ...
The matter of a suitable alternative notwithstanding, I'd say we DON'T have much of a choice in light of the finest traditions of BCB decision-makers and their alleged though process, to do the right thing.

So best of luck to him because we desparately need it. I just hope he talks less game, actually does more of the right things ASAP, and we see those things applied in the middle from our young cricketers.

Anyway, thanks everyone for being here, this is my last post for a while. Bagerhat here we come, FINALLY !
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Last edited by Sohel; July 8, 2008 at 11:01 AM..
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  #116  
Old July 8, 2008, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
I thought he did at first, 'team rule', 'target above 200' didn't come until we got thrashed against NZ, SL and SA. May be I am wrong about SA, but so far I can remember there wasnt any talk of 'team rule' or 'target 200' when we played against NZ and SL. Instead he kicked out Javed, and later Bashar hoping to bring out maximum from the team that Dev left, adding couple of promising young. I consider this change as his first approach, which later shifted to 'let's play basic' mode, after horrible performance against NZ, SL and SA I guess ( e.i. team rule or play full overs, or target 200+ etc. to achieve consistency )

So, in that sense I thought he did started where Dev had left. But sadly enough the result yet to come.
If that's the case, he is a horrible coach who can neither take the baton from his predecesssor nor can execute his own plan.

BTW, he was not in charge of the SL tour.
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  #117  
Old July 8, 2008, 08:49 AM
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Here are the myths in this thread:

1. We cannot improve by going back.
Reality: You cannot simply renovate a 10-storeyed building with poor foundation. You may need to start from scratch.

2. Progress of team under JS has been horrible.
Reality: It's been super horrible. He's trying to start at individual level, and rightly so. A team is comprised of 11 players...each one should know their duties.

3. JS is taking our team back to Moshin Kamal's time.
Reality: Good joke.

4. Zunaid bhai and Razab bhai claim to be the smartest members in the forum.
Reality: Dream on...there's one smarter than you guys.
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  #118  
Old July 8, 2008, 08:54 AM
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Btw...an able minded person will know the following about JS's strategy:

1. Start from individual performances.
2. Set the team standard (aka team rule).
3. Individual performances will raise the standard of the individual performers in domestic circuit.
4. Play together as a team, with clear roles and responsibilities
5. Then start trying to win matches.

An able minded person will know the above.

My theory about the team rule:
The name is quite funny, but this may have been the ONLY term that JS could come up with for our non-English speaking kids. But I am beginning to see the real value in the team rule - it's setting the standard and defining the role of each player in the team.

From the news reports, we start mocking something. But if you're given the job of coaching, I'm sure there will be a few wet pants around here immediately.
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  #119  
Old July 8, 2008, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
If that's the case, he is a horrible coach who can neither take the baton from his predecesssor nor can execute his own plan.
Or I call he is in 'review and execution' phase ( instead calling failure yet ) since time is stil on his side. Next few months it will be all clear ( failure or not ) I guess, and I am not so optimistic on Siddons though.

Quote:
BTW, he was not in charge of the SL tour.
You are right, but he must have watched / analyzed the game atleast.
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  #120  
Old July 8, 2008, 09:34 AM
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I normally ignore the provocative ad hominem posts of one member and I will continue to do so in future
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Last edited by RazabQ; July 8, 2008 at 03:03 PM.. Reason: mod.action
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  #121  
Old July 8, 2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
Or I call he is in 'review and execution' phase ( instead calling failure yet ) since time is stil on his side. Next few months it will be all clear ( failure or not ) I guess, and I am not so optimistic on Siddons though.


You are right, but he must have watched / analyzed the game atleast.
PoorFan bhai, a coach who had no knowledge about even Rafiq before he took over and you think he analyzed our series against Sri Lanka!!!!

You are too optimistic about Siddons.
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  #122  
Old July 8, 2008, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
Thanks Razi for correcting me.

However, we didn't lose any match against the associates and we managed to beat Zimbabwe in every other occasions after that away series.
Miraz bhai ki wc tey IR kasey harsilam under DAV sheta bhuley gasen? bhul ta ki ichakrito to jack up DAV's Stat? lol
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  #123  
Old July 8, 2008, 09:42 AM
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What more can I say Kabir bhai.........
Your above two posts are nothing less than outstanding.
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  #124  
Old July 8, 2008, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akabir77
Miraz bhai ki wc tey IR kasey harsilam under DAV sheta bhuley gasen? bhul ta ki ichakrito to jack up DAV's Stat? lol
My bad.

It's probably better to forget that match.
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  #125  
Old July 8, 2008, 09:59 AM
PoorFan PoorFan is offline
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Join Date: June 15, 2004
Location: Tokyo <---> Dhaka
Posts: 14,846

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
PoorFan bhai, a coach who had no knowledge about even Rafiq before he took over and you think he analyzed our series against Sri Lanka!!!!
That really hurts.
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