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Forget Cricket Talk about anything [within Board Rules, of course :) ]

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  #1  
Old June 16, 2005, 01:06 PM
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babubangla babubangla is offline
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Default Where Islam Stands on Technology Fraud Issues?

Recently I paid a visit to Georgia to see a friend and attended a house party with him. One of the invited guests, a professor somewhere in a university in Georgia, was lecturing about the stand of Islam regarding technological issues. I had some bitter questions in my mind about the stand of Islam on technology fraud issues. But observing how people of similar thoughts were interacting in a nice ďbrotherhoodĒ mood, I did not want to spoil their little weekend fun. Later I thought about posting this thing on this forum to see what people actually think about the stand of Islam on technology fraud issues.

Downloading illegal music, illegally sharing copy righted materials, using pirated softwareóthere are many forms of technology related frauds we do in our everyday life.
What Islam really says about these technology fraud issues? I know these technology related issues were not there when Islam evolved. But I guess Islamic thinkers will try to explain these issues based on some general Islamic principles. What is it?

I see many people posts messages with deep Islamic thoughts and seriously debate different issues on Islamic principles. I suppose those highly Islamic minded people who use online forums must also deal with technology issues in their everyday life. So, their answer would be much more relevant than that of some traditional Imam who never touched a computer. Being an Islamic-minded person, do you guys download illegal music? Do you guys share files illegally? Do you guys use pirated software?

One more issue may be relevant here. We all watch illegal broadcasting of cricket. Do you people refrain yourself from watching illegal cricket broadcasting? I guess none of you stay away from watching it. Is there any Islamic way to validate it? I think when religious issues confront basic human passions like music, sports, patriotismówe either ignore it or we just let our passion rule over religious bindings.


Edited on, June 16, 2005, 10:16 PM GMT, by babubangla.
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  #2  
Old June 16, 2005, 01:12 PM
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uffff.. ki shob kothin proshno..
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  #3  
Old June 16, 2005, 01:37 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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From common sense only, I'd label these questions as judgement calls.

Islam actively teaches and promotes good morality on both personal and social levels. Judgement calls should be relatively easy to address to by good moral minds.

Moreover, islam defines submission to the Creator to be the fundamental purpose of life. Once a person truly submit himself, it becomes much easier for him to negotiate between right and wrong.

Since morality is a matter of practice too, a person with good morality can also make better judgement calls without the help of any religion.

I might very well be wrong though.
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  #4  
Old June 16, 2005, 02:03 PM
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Spitfire_x86 Spitfire_x86 is offline
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In my opinion, the question should be, "Are we depriving somebody from getting the money he could get in normal circumstances?" If the answer is yes, then it's bad (in most cases). If it's no, then it's fine.

Edited on, June 16, 2005, 7:04 PM GMT, by Spitfire_x86.
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  #5  
Old June 16, 2005, 04:52 PM
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Is Islam on trial again??

Edited on, June 16, 2005, 9:52 PM GMT, by al.
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  #6  
Old June 16, 2005, 05:06 PM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by al
Is Islam on trial again??

Edited on, June 16, 2005, 9:52 PM GMT, by al.
I don't think so.
I think its the people , and their conscious/moral value is on trial here.

Good topic. Actually I like this kind of every day issue kind of topic rather than some idological ranting. But I can only speak only for myself.
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  #7  
Old June 16, 2005, 05:18 PM
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yeah I'd be curious to hear Dawah or dosadeel bhai's thought on this topic.
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  #8  
Old June 16, 2005, 05:46 PM
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Downloading is perfectly fine. Islam encourages sharing of wealth, food, feelings etc etc. If you are downloading something, there is another person on the opposite side who is uploading it.. meaning SHARING it. You are not stealing it from him. Hence it's legit!! Someone DID buy an album. He didnt' steal it.

Now, Should you download English music? NO. Islamic laws will not protect you from the RIAA. Capitalist laws will. You follow them.

I think one should use religion (Islam) at situations where one can better himself. Maintaining fideltiy in relationship, honesty, helping those in needs, sometimes getting out of your way for others..... Dont be preoccupied with unnecessary things....Sony is not dying of hunger. You think you are jacking em off.. think again.. iPod was the biggest conspiracy by the corporates carried via apple. Point is they will get your money eventually. Had you bought CDs (hence less songs), everybody would have been happy with just a CD player You ppl are so innocent..

Edited on, June 16, 2005, 10:47 PM GMT, by Orpheus.
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  #9  
Old June 16, 2005, 07:34 PM
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I can say one thing, a bit off topic, but came in my mind after reading your post orphy.

orphy, man, you are the heart of forget cricket. good way or bad way, i'm not gonna comment on that but without you this forget cricket section would have been rather lame.
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  #10  
Old June 16, 2005, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus
Downloading is perfectly fine. Islam encourages sharing of wealth, food, feelings etc etc. If you are downloading something, there is another person on the opposite side who is uploading it.. meaning SHARING it. You are not stealing it from him. Hence it's legit!! Someone DID buy an album. He didnt' steal it.

Now, Should you download English music? NO. Islamic laws will not protect you from the RIAA. Capitalist laws will. You follow them.

I think one should use religion (Islam) at situations where one can better himself. Maintaining fideltiy in relationship, honesty, helping those in needs, sometimes getting out of your way for others..... Dont be preoccupied with unnecessary things....Sony is not dying of hunger. You think you are jacking em off.. think again.. iPod was the biggest conspiracy by the corporates carried via apple. Point is they will get your money eventually. Had you bought CDs (hence less songs), everybody would have been happy with just a CD player You ppl are so innocent..

Edited on, June 16, 2005, 10:47 PM GMT, by Orpheus.
Agree with Orpheus.... eventually their gonna get your money. Piracy is a consequence of the digital and Internat age. It was bound to happen.

The issue of sharing is an interesting one, and one that is similar to the open-source software philiosophy - "if you buy it, it's your and you can do whatever with it" (including share it).

Islamically, I am not quite sure, however...
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  #11  
Old June 17, 2005, 05:38 AM
Banglatiger84 Banglatiger84 is offline
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My view is it should be wrong if you are depriving someone of their rightful income through your actions.

Even then there are some tricky situations. E.g. you can find many photocopied university books in Nilkhet which sell for 200-500 Taka.

They are nothing but pirated copies but then again the original ones cost 3000-6000 Taka, which is impossible for most university students to pay.

Another issue is what exactly the pirated goods are. There should be some distinction between pirated educational books and pirated music, which has only 'entertainment' value.
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  #12  
Old June 17, 2005, 05:55 AM
Tintin Tintin is offline
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>> My view is it should be wrong if you are depriving someone of their rightful income through your actions.

An argument that I use to justify myself when downloading some things (eg. western music) is that I am not depriving anyone of their money. If I have to pay for it, I'll never be buying it.
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  #13  
Old June 17, 2005, 07:57 AM
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People try to justify almost anything they do with all those if, but, except, ect. Isn't it?

btw, last summer I just bought some pirated stuff from local BD Market. And I know I was did something wrong to save some money.

Edited on, June 17, 2005, 12:58 PM GMT, by Fazal.
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  #14  
Old June 17, 2005, 09:47 PM
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babubangla babubangla is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by razabq
yeah I'd be curious to hear Dawah or dosadeel bhai's thought on this topic.
Observing die-hard responses from Islam-minded members, I was expecting to read some serious Islamic analysis from those members and wanted to know personally where they stand on this issue.

Edited on, June 18, 2005, 2:48 AM GMT, by babubangla.
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  #15  
Old June 17, 2005, 10:16 PM
dosadeel dosadeel is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by babubangla
Quote:
Originally posted by razabq
yeah I'd be curious to hear Dawah or dosadeel bhai's thought on this topic.
Observing die-hard responses from Islam-minded members, I was expecting to read some serious Islamic analysis from those members and wanted to know personally where they stand on this issue.

Edited on, June 18, 2005, 2:48 AM GMT, by babubangla.
Interesting question. To be honest, I don't know what Islam says on this. Maybe I could do some research when I have time and find out about it.

Personally, yes I do use "share" programs to download movies/match highlights etc., even though I have a feeling that it "might" be wrong Islamically.

Edited on, June 18, 2005, 3:30 AM GMT, by dosadeel.
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  #16  
Old June 17, 2005, 10:24 PM
dosadeel dosadeel is offline
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Just to add, I don't consider myself even close to being an alim/scholar of Islam. All my posts in other threads are just my "views" and opinions" from what I've read on various topics.

If one of you is sincere about knowing what Islam has to say about a particular issue (for instance this one), its always best to look around at what the scholars (or even knowledgeable people on other Islamic forums) have to say about that.

One such forum (http://gawaher.com/) I frequent has some members who've read tons of Islamic books, and get questions similar to the one in this topic. InshaALlah i'll post the same question there and see what people reply. The replies are usually backed with verses from Quran, or sayings (hadith) of the Prophet (SAWS), or the consensus of scholars (qiyas), so I'm interested to see what replies we get there.
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  #17  
Old June 20, 2005, 10:01 AM
ZunaidH ZunaidH is offline
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Law of the land over-rides Islamic law. If the particular issue is not covered by Islamic law then the law of the land dictates what is right or wrong.
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  #18  
Old June 20, 2005, 05:51 PM
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These type of issue, I always ask from the Uima(scholars.). When you ask these type of question, you should also be prepared to read long replies.

Here is the view of two of the most well known Ulima:
-------------------------------------------

The following are frequently encountered issues for authors and software developers:

Can we register a book under the Copyright Act which bars the people from publishing that book vithout the permission of the copyright holder? If something is registered under the law of copyright, should we abide by the restrictions imposed by that law? Can a copyright holder sell his right of publishing to another person, for a monetary gain?

Mufti Taqi Uthmani, a learned scholar and Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan answers:

The question of 'copyright' is related to a wider concept, generally known as the concept of 'intellectual property'. In previous times, the concept of ownership was confined to only tangible objects. The theory of 'intellectual property' contemplates that whoever applies his mental labour to invent something is the owner of the fruits of his labour. If a person has invented a certain instrument, he does not own that instrument only, but he also owns the formula he has used for the first time to invent it. Therefore, nobody can use that formula without his permission. Similarly, if a person has written a book, he is the exclusive owner of the right to publish it, and nobody has any right to publish that book without his permission.

This right of an author or an inventor is termed as his 'intellectual property'. It is only implied in this theory that the owner of such rights can sell them to others like any other tangible objects. The law of 'copyright' has come into existence in order to secure such rights and to give legal protection to this kind of property.

It is obvious that the concept of intellectual property on which the law of copyright is based is a new phenomenon created by the rapid progress of industry and the means of communication. Therefore, this concept is not
expressly mentioned in the holy Qur'‚n or in the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Sallall‚hu alayhi wasallam. The acceptability or otherwise of such new concepts which are not clearly mentioned in the original sources of Isl‚mic jurisprudence can only be inferred from the general principles laid down by the SharÓ'ah. As the views of the jurists may differ while applying these principles to the new situations, there is always a wide scope of difference of opinion in such case. The question of 'intellectual property' has also been a subject of discussion among the contemporary Muslim scholars of SharÓ'ah whose opinions differ about its acceptability in SharÓ'ah.

First view
A group of contemporary scholars do not approve of 'intellectual property'. According to them the concept of ownership in SharÓ'ah is confined to tangible objects only. They contend that there is no precedent in the Holy Qur'‚n, in the Sunnah or in the juristic views of the earlier Muslim jurists where an intangible object has been subjected to private ownership or to sale and purchase. They further argue that 'knowledge' in Isl‚m is not the a property of an individual, nor can he prevent others form acquiring knowledge, whereas the concept of 'intellectual property' leads to the monopoly of some individuals' knowledge, which can never be accepted by Isl‚m.

Second view
On the other hand, some contempo-rary scholars take the concept of 'intellectual property' as acceptable in SharÓ'‚h. They say that there is no express provision in the Holy Qur'‚n or in the Sunnah which restricts the ownership to the tangible objects only. There are several intangible rights accepted and maintained by the SharÓ'‚h, and there are several instances where such intangible rights have been transferred to others for some monetary considerations.

They contend that the concept of 'intellectual property' does in no way restrict the scope of knowledge, because the law of 'copyright' does not prevent a person from reading a book or from averting of a new invention for his individual benefit. On the contrary, the law of 'copyright' prevents a person from the wide commercial use of an object on the ground that the person who invented it by his mental labour is more entitled to its commercial benefits, and any other person should not be allowed to reap the monetary fruits of the former's labour without his permission. The author of a book who has worked day and night to write a book is obviously the best person who deserves its publication for commercial purposes. If every other person is allowed to publish the book without the author's permission, it will certainly violate the rights of the author, and the law of copyright protects him from such violation of his rights.

The author's view
Both of these Views have their own arguments. I have analysed the argu-ments of both sides in my Arabic treatise 'Bay-ul-HuqŻq' and have preferred the, second view over the first, meaning, thereby that a book can be registered under the Copyright Act and the right of its publication can also be transferred to some other person for a monetary consideration.

Coming to the question of restric-tions imposed by the law, I would like to add that if the law of copyright in a country prevents its citizens from publishing a book without the permission of the copyright holder, all the citizens must abide by this legal restriction. The reasons are manifold:

Firstly, it violates the right of the copyright, holder which is affirmed by the SharÓ'‚h principles also according to the preferable view, as mentioned earlier.

Secondly, I have mentioned that the views of the contemporary scholars are different on the concept of 'intellectual property' and none of them is in clear contravention of the injunctions of Isl‚m as laid down in the Holy Qur '‚n and Sunnah. In such situations, an Isl‚mic state can prefer one view over the other, and if it does so by a specific legislation, its decision is binding even on those scholars who have an opposite view. It is an accepted position in the Isl‚mic jurisprudence that the legislation of an Isl‚mic state resolves the juristic dispute in a manner not expressly mentioned in the Holy Qur'‚n or in the Sunnah. Therefore, if an Isl‚mic state promulgates a law in favour of the concept of 'intellectual property' without violating any pro-vision of the Holy Qur'‚n and Sunnah, the same will be binding on all its citizens. Those who have an opposite view can express their standpoint as an academic discussion, but they cannot violate the law in their practice.

Thirdly, even if the government is not a pure Isl‚mic government, every citizen enters into an express or a tacit agreement with it to the effect that he will abide by its laws insofar as they do not compel him to anything which is not permissible in SharÓ'‚h. Therefore if the law requires a citizen to refrain from an act which was otherwise permissible (not
mandatory) in SharÓ'‚h he must refrain from it.

Even the scholars who do not accept the concept of 'intellectual property', do not hold the view that it, is a mandatory requirement of SharÓ'‚h to violate the rights recognised by this concept. Their view is that it is permissible for a person to publish a book without its author's permission.

Therefore, if the law prevents them from this 'permissible' act, they should refrain from it as their agreement of citizenship requires them to do so. Therefore, it is necessary for every citizen to abide by the law, of
copyright unless it compels a person to do an impermissible act or it restrains him from a mandatory act under the SharÓ'‚h.

Source:
Extract - Al-Rasheed (published by Jamiatul Ulama - Transvaal)
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  #19  
Old June 20, 2005, 05:52 PM
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http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=8801

Question:
is it permissible to use pirated software?
a) 95% of the (computer) software in Pakistan is 'pirated', is it permissible to use 'cracked' (engineer the program to make it usable without PAYING for it). for example an orignal Windows Installation CD costs about 100$ (6,000 Pak Rupees approx.) and a pirated cd would cost only 25 Pak rupees (not even 0.5$) b) does is make any difference if the software company belongs to a Hurbi Kaafir (e.g. Israel) c) If someone uses a 'cracked' (stolen) software downloaded from the internet to record audio cds and then selling them. will the income form these cds HALAAL? d) what does Islam say about 'copyright'? (specially in DEENI BOOKS,CDs)

Answer:

The practise of pirating registered software and copyrights is not permissible.

The sale of such software is not permissible. The proceeds of such sales will also not be permissible.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
www.askimam.com

Edited on, June 20, 2005, 10:54 PM GMT, by dawah.tabligh.
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