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  #26  
Old December 11, 2008, 03:36 AM
PoorFan PoorFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imtiaz82
...
2) At an individual level I don't think we should hold grudge against normal Pakistanis, 99% had nothing to do with the atrocities committed by their army. The same way majority of Bangladeshis have nothing to do with Shiekh Hasian or Khaleda Zia's hartals and violence... There are good and bad people among them just like Bangladeshis, Arabs or Europeans.
1st. Hasina and Khaleda made hortal & violance doesnt contest a genocide - Average BD people will do what its needed if the case become as '71.

2nd. When a 100% Pakistani people made govt cant make an apology for human crime like genocide [even after 35 years] ... those 99% innocent [back then] has lot to do right now [or not too late].
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  #27  
Old December 11, 2008, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imtiaz82
Bro, I won't be too surprised on the report though.. my nana was a doctor in the Pakistan army(before 71) and based in Abbotabad near Islamabad. My mum went there for the first time in late 90s after independence... she got the same warmth and closeness from the people as mentioned by the author, even though none of the locals remembered or recogized her. Infact she was shocked herself as she was expecting people to hate Bangladeshis or atleast be indifferent.

I don't think general people from any nation is inherently evil or bad in nature. Infact even Indian general public is very hospitable to Pakistanis and vice versa.. lot of sikhs wrote about their excellent experience in Lahore during India's tour there.

But saying this, our government should still be very strong in it's demand for an offical apology. Korea got that from Japan, the European countries from Germany..
Well, those nice experiences are norms [as long as we are human being] and always welcome. But as I said ... Do we see such report from main stream [or not] local media till now or every now and then? Is there any legitimate indication that mass of Pakistan feel sorry for their act and changed their mindset on us? If not, [and so far its not] we better wait and claim what we want.
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  #28  
Old December 11, 2008, 03:55 AM
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I believe most pakistanis do not respect us as fellow human beings. Their disrespect of us is at a very deep, very rudimentary, raw, primal level. I have not found too many pakistanis that fall outside this bracket. I hope, but don't know whether it would change in our lifetime.

India has trade and tariff dispute with us. We do business with India from a disadvantageous position due to unfair trade practices by them. With Pakistan, it's not much better, if not worse. This is just one indication of how stoic the relationship has remained.

Look at the Pakistani welfare organizations that are working to repatriate their stranded citizens in Bangladesh. The Pak government is solely responsible for the plight of these people. We have been hosting them for decades. Yet, these well-meaning organizations spread hateful propaganda against us, to try and attain their goals. They should know very well that without the active help and participation of Bangaldesh they stand no hope. Their own government don't give a damn about the issue, they never did. Yet, we take the brunt of their propaganda even today.

And what of that "apology"? (Not that it would happen soon, or matter....)
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  #29  
Old December 11, 2008, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlanetPak
Excellent read and a big thanks to Fariha for writing this!

The events of 1971 were nothing short of a horrific blunder. The scar is so deep that it will remain on our country's image till as long as possible and the only way we can partially redeem ourselves is by being friendly and caring to people who were once a part of us.
Thats a positive and welcome step one individual can take, nice to hear that from a Pakistani friend on BC.
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  #30  
Old December 11, 2008, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabz
As for myself, im all ready to move on and let the water run the bridge, ONLY WHEN the paki govt formally and unconditionally apologise to Bangladesh and Her people. ONLY then.

Till that happens, i will continue to have a ill feelings towards the country called pakistan, and unfortunately, its people belong to it.
I once mentioned something very similar to the words underlined in a thread here at BC, and it wasn't taken well even by a fellow Bangladeshi! Anyway, my exact sentiments, as always, Rabz bro! Well said to counter the article...
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  #31  
Old December 11, 2008, 09:54 AM
ikthiander ikthiander is offline
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as salaamu alaikum, khub e complicated ekta topic, ei bishoi e amar mone hoi dui srenir extremist pawa jai:

1. otirikto jatiyotabadi ugrobadi, jara pakistani dekhlei ma baap tule gal dei ebong shotruta korte chai
2. otirikto chatukar srenir lok, jara pakistani dekhlei moner modhdhe "pak sar zameen..." gaan bajai.

ashole pakistani der modhdhe bhalo kharap shob e achhe, amar khub close frnd der modhdhe besh kichhu pakistani achhe jara bhalo muslim masha Allah. abar kharap pakistani o dekhechhi jara khub e kharap. ashole pakistan e bhalo kharap er data to keu ekhon porjonto toiri koreni , tai bola khub mushkil. ugrobadi to bd teo achhe eki rokom bhabe. ei shob ugrobadi der dekha jai khamakha indiar pa chatachati korte aar pakistan niye gali dite. amar mone hoi amader mene newa uchit, shob jaigai bhalo kharap achhe, ki bolen bhai shob.

71 e ki hoyechhilo, tar shathe puro pakistani shobai jorito etao to thik na abar. shutorang shobai e ba keno khoma chabe, etao hoito oder mone proshno. politics kintu shottikar orthe khub shadharon jonogon koreo na, bujheo na. amader desher kothai bhabun, ekta pepsi khawaleo vote dei. aar salauddin kader o nirbachon e darai, thik jemon kore darai hasina aar khaleda. je jati khaleda hasina nizami ke neta netri hishebe chai, shetao besh ugro jati amar mone hoi. lagatar hortal, logi boithhar marpit, rog kata, drill kora egulo to kono bhodro jatir kaj na.
ei je london e rajniti niye erokom khun kharapi hoi na, chhatro ra poralekha chhere rastai bhingchami kore na. chhatroder hathe ostro pawar to proshno e uthhe na.
majhe majhe mone hoi amader upomohadesh e ugro howa mone hoi ekta fashion. bangladesh o keno bad jabe. kumilla theke asha bachcha meyeder kajer beti rekhe ottachar korar kotha to bad e dilam, bornona korte boshle amar hath betha korbe (hehe kali hoito furabe na).

dhalao bhabe shobai ke doshi na kore doshi bakti der shasti dilei hoi, aar na hoi al qaeda der shathe amader kono parthhokko e thakbe na. al qaeda o bush er dosh e americai giye boma futai.

"shomoi eshechhe notun khobor anar"!
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  #32  
Old December 11, 2008, 09:56 AM
ikthiander ikthiander is offline
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by the way, ei bishoi e amader auntu miar opinion o chai, i love his motamot hehe.
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  #33  
Old December 11, 2008, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlanetPak
Excellent read and a big thanks to Fariha for writing this!

The events of 1971 were nothing short of a horrific blunder. The scar is so deep that it will remain on our country's image till as long as possible and the only way we can partially redeem ourselves is by being friendly and caring to people who were once a part of us.
it is indeed a deep scar planetpak, however, you have made the first step towards healing it by acknowledging it a genuine source of grievance. for that, we are grateful to you and accept you as a friend.
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  #34  
Old December 11, 2008, 11:22 AM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
Well, those nice experiences are norms [as long as we are human being] and always welcome. But as I said ... Do we see such report from main stream [or not] local media till now or every now and then? Is there any legitimate indication that mass of Pakistan feel sorry for their act and changed their mindset on us? If not, [and so far its not] we better wait and claim what we want.
A formal report on this issue will be controversial, and the newspapers/tv channels will immediately labelled as Razakar, pro Jamat etc. We Bangladeshis, as a nation, has not come out of the 71 tragedy, the fact that Pakistani government has not officialy apologized hasn't helped the cause either..

The fact that Indians(including Sikhs with which most Pakistanis have bitter history during 47) were treated extremely well in Pakistan came out in major Indian news channel incluring cricinfo.. So why would be surprising to see Bangladeshis being treated well?

I am not being pro Pakistan, infact during my visit to Bangalore I was also pleased to see the Indian people being very hospitable aswell. I used to think they look down at us as some extremist country with millions of illegal immigrants ...

Last edited by imtiaz82; December 11, 2008 at 11:32 AM..
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  #35  
Old December 11, 2008, 11:33 AM
imtiaz82 imtiaz82 is offline
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Some interview of Pakistani students in Multan regarding 71 in BBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDdodVyleM0
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  #36  
Old December 11, 2008, 01:13 PM
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actually in pakpassion I fought lonely battle against those literate Pakistanies regarding the genocide . Some still feel that those are creation of media. Mr Pakplanet is apologizing on his behalf but I fail to find one single pakistani soul to support my view.
My own experience in Pakistan is like the writer though we have a bad start. It was in the time of Taslima Nasreen's fatwa and in the immigration quite sarcastically the officer welcomed me from the land of Taslima Nasreen. I was quite annoyed and replied No from the land of Tagore. He was contiously doing so until he reached the last one who BTW was number one fan of TN (for her choti writing) replied You are mistaken mister we came from land of Tigers who f*****d your F******** army in 1971 . There was pin drop silence in our line until one of the senior Immigration officer came and say I am sorry for my subordinate to annoy you.
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  #37  
Old December 11, 2008, 02:59 PM
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In the last 38 years, pakistan has honored and rewarded many of her war criminals. No one was ever punished for their crime against humanity. Here's some food for thought.

Iraq today is going through a grim period. The Iraqi people endured the rule of Saddam for a long time. Somehow I can't help but think that it was incumbent upon the people to rise up against the tyrant. They should have protested against the crimes that he committed before he went too far. One ethnic group enjoyed the advantage over another. At the end, it's the tyrant that brought about this misfortune upon the whole nation.

Anarchy runs supreme in pakistan today. Mr. "Thief-in-Chief" is the prime minister. Shadow government of the military & ISI runs the country. People suffer daily from internal and external attacks. It is indeed the people that suffer. However, it is the people that have to come forward and make positive changes. They have to produce leaders that would see through the smoke screen and tell the truth as it is.

The people of pakistan have not done that. They have not asked the hard questions to their leaders about the genocide of 1971. They have not put these criminals to trial.

We don't have a scope of becoming delussional about the goodwill of the people of Pakistan. If they had genuine good intent or good feeling about us, it would have eventually reflected in their public policies. Never happened.
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  #38  
Old December 11, 2008, 03:26 PM
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all the bickering...yet we are still die hard supporters of pakistan cricket.
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  #39  
Old December 11, 2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gopal Bhar
all the bickering...yet we are still die hard supporters of pakistan cricket.
Ahem! Excuse me? Who supports in cricket in this forum?
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  #40  
Old December 11, 2008, 04:31 PM
Banglatiger84 Banglatiger84 is offline
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Herein lies another problem; I despise Pakistani attitudes towards 1971, but I dont believe that we have to hate Pakistani cricket players, support India against them, and not watch their games.

People who support Pk cricket team in our country do it generally due to liking their game, and not because of 1971......but theres a section who wants us to be against PK cricket team at all costs
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  #41  
Old December 11, 2008, 05:59 PM
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thanks for the support Puck and PF
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  #42  
Old December 11, 2008, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahir
I once mentioned something very similar to the words underlined in a thread here at BC, and it wasn't taken well even by a fellow Bangladeshi! Anyway, my exact sentiments, as always, Rabz bro! Well said to counter the article...
I agree there should be an official apology.

Here is what Pervez Musharraf said during his visit to BAN in 2002
"Your brothers and sisters in Pakistan share the pains of the events of 1971. The excesses committed during the unfortunate period are regrettable,"

Should have finished the sentence by saying "we are extremely sorry for the happenings in 1971"
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  #43  
Old December 11, 2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdchamp20
Ahem! Excuse me? Who supports in cricket in this forum?
my unofficial jorip poll suggests that right after supporting our own country, most of the nation supports pakistan.
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  #44  
Old December 11, 2008, 07:42 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
Well, I would say based on interacting with 200 + Pakistanis in my life, from a number of ethnicities and social strata (unfortunately no bonded Sindhi laborers though), my estimates are as close as you can get.

One caveat that we can introduce is that my estimates are based on people who are somewhat educated and have some idea of what happened in 1971.

That makes it all the more scary given that in many countries, the uneducated, ill-informed people are the more racist.
sorry bhai, but i gotta call some serious BS on this one.

if you think your 200 is a statistically significant indicator of 170 million pakis, then i'm afraid you need to go back to school. that 200 doesn't represent the average pakistani in any way shape or form. its like taking 200 Bangladeshi college students in the UK or US and coming to the conclusion that the average graamer women in bangladesh use high speed wireless internet on a daily basis.

your percentages are skewed. the average pakistani is as deluded by his gov as the average bangladeshi or american. amongst the educated (the a good indicator of belief systems) majority of pakistanis have favorable views towards bangladeshis. especially in this age of islamist "ikhwan" type fervor.

the average paki on the street is no different than the average bengali who harbors hatred against indians or pakistanis. the ratios cut the same way.

i've met plenty of pakistanis who are quite brotherly, and there is no logical reason to take your 200 over mine or anyone else's.

with this said, i'll agree that there are a large portion of pakistanis who share the same sentiment u mentioned. 15% of the educated? i hardly think so. these a group of psuedo-islamic nutters jumping around, they are just as "islamic" as the talibanis and such.

but to malign pakistanis with too broad a paintbrush, is IMO, no different than the self righteousness which spawned the genocides and persecution of 1947-1971.
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  #45  
Old December 12, 2008, 01:55 AM
Banglatiger84 Banglatiger84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
sorry bhai, but i gotta call some serious BS on this one.

if you think your 200 is a statistically significant indicator of 170 million pakis, then i'm afraid you need to go back to school. that 200 doesn't represent the average pakistani in any way shape or form. its like taking 200 Bangladeshi college students in the UK or US and coming to the conclusion that the average graamer women in bangladesh use high speed wireless internet on a daily basis.

your percentages are skewed. the average pakistani is as deluded by his gov as the average bangladeshi or american. amongst the educated (the a good indicator of belief systems) majority of pakistanis have favorable views towards bangladeshis. especially in this age of islamist "ikhwan" type fervor.

the average paki on the street is no different than the average bengali who harbors hatred against indians or pakistanis. the ratios cut the same way.

i've met plenty of pakistanis who are quite brotherly, and there is no logical reason to take your 200 over mine or anyone else's.

with this said, i'll agree that there are a large portion of pakistanis who share the same sentiment u mentioned. 15% of the educated? i hardly think so. these a group of psuedo-islamic nutters jumping around, they are just as "islamic" as the talibanis and such.

but to malign pakistanis with too broad a paintbrush, is IMO, no different than the self righteousness which spawned the genocides and persecution of 1947-1971.
You know Al Furqaan, you should really read my posts before dismissing something as BS.
You never even ready my posts where I said the same things which you feel you are correcting me in!

1) You imply that I didnt meet good Pakistanis.

Correction: I know at least 15-20 very good Pakistanis, some of whom are my closest friends, and they all consider us Bangladeshis as brothers, and are sometimes Islamic , sometimes not, but are generally pleasant

2) You imply that educated Pakistanis are more likely to love us.

Correction: In reality, educated Pakistanis are more likely to hate us (Imtiaz made a good point, i.e. educated Bangladeshis are also more likely to be jingoistic)

3) You imply that the ones who hate us are pseudo-mullahs

Correction: Bengali hating Pakistanis cover all religious spheres, some secular, some Islamic, but they all have look upon in a condescending way towards us, faced at least 100 situations in my life which showed me their hatred

4) You thought I generalized all Pakistanis as being bad on the basis of knowing 200 of them.

Correction: I found 20 very good ones, 140 normal ones who neither love us nor hate us, and at least 30 who hate us, I made an extrapolation on that basis which I am sure is not far from ground realities.


Lastly one important point, the types of Pakistanis you are likely to deal with, in other words, mosque going/ISNA educated Pakistanis are generally much better than the average educated Pakistani. If I only met Pakistanis in my Austin mosque, I would have considered them the most humblest group of people I have ever seen. But I have interacted with them in 3 countries , inside and outside Masajid, at work and at school, and lived with them. And I am sure I know them much better than the average Bangladeshi.

Conclusion: Some are very good to us, while others hate us for being traitors.....
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  #46  
Old December 12, 2008, 02:01 AM
Banglatiger84 Banglatiger84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan

1) amongst the educated (the a good indicator of belief systems) majority of pakistanis have favorable views towards bangladeshis. especially in this age of islamist "ikhwan" type fervor.

2) i've met plenty of pakistanis who are quite brotherly, and there is no logical reason to take your 200 over mine or anyone else's.
My replies:

1) Ask Imtiaz as well, he will also agree that educated Pakistanis are more likely to hate us, just as educated Bangladeshis are more likely to hold jingoistic views. The Pakistanis with Ikhwan type fervor arent more than a third of educated Pakistanis

2) Where did I ever say I didnt meet brotherly Pakistanis? Of course I know some wonderful Pakistanis, and they are part of the 200, but arent more than 20
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  #47  
Old December 12, 2008, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebest
actually in pakpassion I fought lonely battle against those literate Pakistanies regarding the genocide . Some still feel that those are creation of media. Mr Pakplanet is apologizing on his behalf but I fail to find one single pakistani soul to support my view.
You find that surprising? What about when our Bangalis themselves can say on Live National TV that the liberation war never happened. Or when they claim on chat shows that it was ONLY a civil war. Those people also happened to be the people who fought for the opposition and butchered their own people.

When someone even jokingly or mistakenly suggests something slightly controversial of Islam he is battered to death or has to live his whole life under fear (ie the cartoon incident). But when these haramis clearly deny us our history which they raped but show no remorse, people go out in millions and vote these bastards into the Parliament. What does that suggest to you about us as people?
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  #48  
Old December 12, 2008, 03:40 PM
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I will follow a slightly different point of view with all those numbers everyone came up with. I have not been to Pakistan and my only exposure to them is people living in USA. Now, given that these are the people who are supposed to be more educated and therefore more open minded, I think if you divide the good stat by two and multiply the bad by 2, you will get the picture of actual pakistan.

first of all, lets forget about Bangladesh Pakistan relation for a second and focus on Pakistani people in general. Here I find, 95% of the male are arrogant, and too proud of themselves. It is extremely difficult to have a logical discussion with them, as they already know before any argument that they are right. I find it very interesting that their female counterparts are not like that. Most of the females are logical.

now transfer that hypothesis to Bangladesh Pakistan relation, what do you expect from them? Their behavior should make sense to you now.

One more thing in this regard I should mention, I think the writer lady spent more time with female than males in Pakistan and that might also shape for point of view.

I don't know anyone else has experienced this or not (just to make sure my observation was not utterly baseless)
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  #49  
Old December 12, 2008, 07:07 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
You know Al Furqaan, you should really read my posts before dismissing something as BS.
You never even ready my posts where I said the same things which you feel you are correcting me in!

1) You imply that I didnt meet good Pakistanis.

Correction: I know at least 15-20 very good Pakistanis, some of whom are my closest friends, and they all consider us Bangladeshis as brothers, and are sometimes Islamic , sometimes not, but are generally pleasant

2) You imply that educated Pakistanis are more likely to love us.

Correction: In reality, educated Pakistanis are more likely to hate us (Imtiaz made a good point, i.e. educated Bangladeshis are also more likely to be jingoistic)

3) You imply that the ones who hate us are pseudo-mullahs

Correction: Bengali hating Pakistanis cover all religious spheres, some secular, some Islamic, but they all have look upon in a condescending way towards us, faced at least 100 situations in my life which showed me their hatred

4) You thought I generalized all Pakistanis as being bad on the basis of knowing 200 of them.

Correction: I found 20 very good ones, 140 normal ones who neither love us nor hate us, and at least 30 who hate us, I made an extrapolation on that basis which I am sure is not far from ground realities.


Lastly one important point, the types of Pakistanis you are likely to deal with, in other words, mosque going/ISNA educated Pakistanis are generally much better than the average educated Pakistani. If I only met Pakistanis in my Austin mosque, I would have considered them the most humblest group of people I have ever seen. But I have interacted with them in 3 countries , inside and outside Masajid, at work and at school, and lived with them. And I am sure I know them much better than the average Bangladeshi.

Conclusion: Some are very good to us, while others hate us for being traitors.....
are you sure that the 15% you know hate bangladeshis in general? have you asked them? there are some bangladeshis i hate (lots actually), doesn't necessarily make me a biggot. how would you know that they hate bangladeshis unless you discussed history with them, or overheard them discussing with others. how would you know whether they hate you for being bengali, or if its more of a personal issue.

now i can state, that based on the pakpassion forums (and this is fairly representative of a particular segment of pakistani population - mostly expats i'd imagine) the majority of them have no ill will against us. yes there is the odd hater who deserves to be bound and quartered, but i'd be willing to bet there are 10 times as many who hates around our immediate borders in india.

personally, i have only met warm pakistanis (and indians). of course i know that haters exist, and that many of them are created by their goverments propoganda.

further, being born and raised in america, invariably i am surround by a different group of people. the youth here, and in some cases "aunties and uncles", have gone above and beyond ethnocentrism to forge a feeling of fellowship and brotherhood, flawed as it may be.

************************************************** **

on a related topic, just read a surprising story on CNN.com that talked about a study of hajjis. it mentioned that those muslims who undertake the hajj are more likely to be tolerant of other cultures. it also found that men who make hajj had more egalitarian views of the status of women in society than those who did not make hajj or something like that.

most suprising of all was that hajjis were also found to be more tolerant of "infidels" as well.

can you imagine that? the religion of terror actually spawning tolerance from its very cradle?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/1...tml#cnnSTCText
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  #50  
Old December 12, 2008, 09:34 PM
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