Consistent failures from positions of strength, where lies the problem?

[Maximillian]

This is a wonderful thread by the thread opener.

Unfortunately, MOST of the responses are as pathetic as the team's performance. Too much inclination to throw the blame on things and people, instead of providing judicious thoughts on how to overcome the problem.

After 10 years of cricket, many coaches, and 100s of internationsals from many many players, Bangladesh still fails as though they made debut just yesterday.

But before we begin to rant, put things in perspective and think of the achievements. Tie them together and get the players into a team over several years, and they will build on each other's mental strength.

And that is where the problem is - mental strength. That comprises of the lack of focus, strength and responsibility.

Many of you talk about youngsters playing cricket from when they were toddlers. But what good is that if you only play? How often besides competing for that 1st position in class do Bengalis get involved in competing..year in and year out? My guess is not very often. The culture lacks the basic recipe to arm people to succeed when the going gets tough..to stay focused, calm and together.

Just think about it, Bangladesh would never have become independant had they not been attcked in 1971. All they would have done is continue to attend janasabhas after janasabhas and hear out political leaders. Just imagine, had the pliticians in 2000 not pitched BD for Test cricket, would they have ever won the ICC 3 in a row like SL and Zims to actually qualify for test cricket.

Its hard work, and for BD, its gonna be harder as you guys start everything the other way around.

[Raynman]

Originally Posted by Maximillian
This is a wonderful thread by the thread opener.

Unfortunately, MOST of the responses are as pathetic as the team's performance. Too much inclination to throw the blame on things and people, instead of providing judicious thoughts on how to overcome the problem.

After 10 years of cricket, many coaches, and 100s of internationsals from many many players, Bangladesh still fails as though they made debut just yesterday.

But before we begin to rant, put things in perspective and think of the achievements. Tie them together and get the players into a team over several years, and they will build on each other's mental strength.

And that is where the problem is - mental strength. That comprises of the lack of focus, strength and responsibility.

Many of you talk about youngsters playing cricket from when they were toddlers. But what good is that if you only play? How often besides competing for that 1st position in class do Bengalis get involved in competing..year in and year out? My guess is not very often. The culture lacks the basic recipe to arm people to succeed when the going gets tough..to stay focused, calm and together.

Just think about it, Bangladesh would never have become independant had they not been attcked in 1971. All they would have done is continue to attend janasabhas after janasabhas and hear out political leaders. Just imagine, had the pliticians in 2000 not pitched BD for Test cricket, would they have ever won the ICC 3 in a row like SL and Zims to actually qualify for test cricket.

Its hard work, and for BD, its gonna be harder as you guys start everything the other way around.

Just out of curiosity, how much do you know about 1971?

Do you think the attack just happened? You realize that the attack was done because of the election and the rebellions that were taking place?

Bangladesh was on path to independence starting from 1952 onwards.

I'm sorry but that is a very ignorant comment to make.

[Jesus87]

Originally Posted by Raynman
Just out of curiosity, how much do you know about 1971?

Do you think the attack just happened? You realize that the attack was done because of the election and the rebellions that were taking place?

Bangladesh was on path to independence starting from 1952 onwards.

I'm sorry but that is a very ignorant comment to make.

The comment that was made by the user above was harsh, I don't think you need to bring in politics into cricket. That was a very senseless point made by him. Anyway brother Ignore such ignorant people, I won't be surprised if this guy was invovled in the 1971 genocide.

[FagunerAgun]

Consistent failures from positions of strength, where lies the problem?
problem is in their heads - they have too much cuckoos in their heads.

[hbk619]

Originally Posted by Tiger444
Umm Aftab had 80 chances in ODIs and 14 tests..he got lucky in the past by being in the team despite not performing..same with SN..these guys are not good examples..i agree that Raqibul and Ashraful need to be dropped because of their poor form..but who to select? Yes you could move Riyad and Naeem up the order..but then who's going to play down the order if we collapse since always do that? Ya we could put Aftab and Alok down there beccause they can hit well but if we collapse do we really want to rest our hands in aftab and alok down the order? There are a lot of questions left for us to ponder..on the positive side there are 2 more ODIs for the cricketers to prove themselves so we do not have to talk about this..

yes aftab and SN didn't show extra ordinary performance in past. However, they didn't play international cricket for 2-3 years. That doesn't mean that Aftab/SN is going to show the same performance if they get a chance. Now if you move up the batting order of riyad/naeem, you never know they may perform much better. You got to do experiments with the team. otherwise we will see the same result everytime.

[Tiger444]

I think plain and simple we just need our national team players to go and play their domestic cricket in England or Australia..Why doesn't BCB hire agents for these national teamers and make them play in England or Australia? I believe this would give them a lot more exposure for the batsmen and the bowlers..For example Shakib Al Hasan signed with Worcestershire..this is a really good move for him and I am interested in seeing how much he improves..the county sides he will be playing are going to be a lot better competition then the ones he faces in the NCL..Also they have good coaches over there so he can get extra tips on his batting and bowling..there was an article of Habibul Basher from our very own Miraz bhai which I believe was a very piece on how Bangladesh can move forward..http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/con...ry/344662.html

The problem with the Bangladeshi players is that they have raw talent which is the reason why you see in spurts they can play really well..unfortunately in any sport just playing well in spurts is simply not good enough to win..sure you can be competitive but you cannot necessarily compete to win..that's what Bangladesh has to work on if they want to get better..again the domestic scene is where there has to be blame..because the players can play in spurts against teams in the NCL and get away with it but against teams like india, sri lanka, and new zealand that is not good enough..

[Peace]

It has been a privilege to read some of the great analytical posts in this thread from Beamer, Miraz, Mahmood, Maximillan et al. However, I do not agree that there is a real concern at the moment. Cricket is a game where no nation is expected to overtake other great cricketing nations overnight who have been playing top class cricket for decades. Improvement is a gradual process which takes time. I strongly believe that over the past five years we have improved significantly although we are not world beater yet. This can be evidenced in the comparison between the progressions of other nation such as Zimbabwe. Our progression is as such significant that we can beat Zimbabwe soundly in any form of game, despite being younger in terms of time of berth in Test cricket. One may argue, Zimbabwe’s progression was jeopardised by political conflicts.
At this stage, our progression need to be measured on the basis of individual performance rather than collectively, being a young test playing nation. A few years back, it was rare to see a century scored by our batsmen or a four/five wicket haul by a bowler. We see that more frequently now. We used to get beaten by inning but we are not getting now. These are all signs of gradual improvement. Once, in the near future, when collective improvement will be made, we will be able to beat the world’s best consistently.
Patient is required by all parties including fans, management, players, coach et al. There is no reason to panic; we will get there surely but slowly. Panic will cause conflict among involved parties and will disturb our progression only.
If you guys keep asking to kick out different players after each game, we may soon find no players to play for BD in the near future. Same can be said for coaching and management staffs.
Our cricketers are like our fans, no patient whatsoever. Every ball a BD batsman plays is like an every thread a BC member responds.
We may need to think differently.

[Tiger444]

Originally Posted by Peace
It has been a privilege to read some of the great analytical posts in this thread from Beamer, Miraz, Mahmood, Maximillan et al. However, I do not agree that there is a real concern at the moment. Cricket is a game where no nation is expected to overtake other great cricketing nations overnight who have been playing top class cricket for decades. Improvement is a gradual process which takes time. I strongly believe that over the past five years we have improved significantly although we are not world beater yet. This can be evidenced in the comparison between the progressions of other nation such as Zimbabwe. Our progression is as such significant that we can beat Zimbabwe soundly in any form of game, despite being younger in terms of time of berth in Test cricket. One may argue, Zimbabwe’s progression was jeopardised by political conflicts.
At this stage, our progression need to be measured on the basis of individual performance rather than collectively, being a young test playing nation. A few years back, it was rare to see a century scored by our batsmen or a four/five wicket haul by a bowler. We see that more frequently now. We used to get beaten by inning but we are not getting now. These are all signs of gradual improvement. Once, in the near future, when collective improvement will be made, we will be able to beat the world’s best consistently.
Patient is required by all parties including fans, management, players, coach et al. There is no reason to panic; we will get there surely but slowly. Panic will cause conflict among involved parties and will disturb our progression only.
If you guys keep asking to kick out different players after each game, we may soon find no players to play for BD in the near future. Same can be said for coaching and management staffs.
Our cricketers are like our fans, no patient whatsoever. Every ball a BD batsman plays is like an every thread a BC member responds.
We may need to think differently.

Great great post..i can understand everyones frustration at the team at the moment and I am also frustrated how badly we lost 2 New Zealand because we play well in spurts but overall we do really need time..New Zealand has played cricket a lot longer than us..they played test matches from the 1950's whereas we started in 2000 and even then we should have started later to be honest..People are really hounding down Jamie Siddons but look at how many of our players credited him to their batting..a lot of our batsmen were basically young talented but raw batsmen and tamim was a perfect example..since the 50 against india till now he has improved a lot..pretty soon the guy can average a 40 in both tests and ODIs which would really be significant especially considering he's an opener..mahmudullah was getting bashed like crazy on the forum for a while..reminds me of what the members are doing now to raqibul..but mahmudullah has really come a long way and pretty soon he can average a 40 with the bat in both forms of the game..raqibul and shakib are completely out of form with the bat but these guys can also average a 40 in both forms of the game once they get going..mushfiq even though hasn't batted well in ODIs..he's done very well in tests..naeem pretty soon can average 40 in ODIs and if he gets chances in tests he can be a great player in that arena as well..now looking in to our pacers it seems shahadat is getting his form back and shafiul has turned out to be a great find..rubel is a great talent but he really needs time before he can be a regular for us..with time and experience the guy will be a gem for us..i believe the team managment has got the right core of players now..remember last year was really a calander full of minnows..this year is a lot tougher with us playing india, sri lanka, and in new zealand..and then we got the england tour of BD and also play them in england..these are very tough tours we are playing in..people have to remember how young our team is also..most of the players are 22-23..i believe it will take time before we started to taste success..i say it will take 3-4 more years before we start to taste series victories..as Peace bhai said we can't just throw players out left and right..these are our core players and our future.. as i said in my other posts we need our players to go and play in county cricket for england which would make them more experienced and give them exposure to different pitches.. with time we will turn out to be a dangerous team..we the fans will have to be patient which is very very hard..but i know we can do it and we have to keep on believing..

[chol_bd123]

Shakib lost his form in batting and bowling. He sucks with the bowl. Even Naeem bowled better then him yesterday

[Zeeshan]

Random thoughts:

1. Divide and conquer, play session by session, don't get complacent if you think you won the session. If the first 10 over is first session and resulted an A then the last PP session was horendous with out of the chart grade that doesn't even exist in the Alphanumeric OR Greek alphabet.

2. Use variations in your bowling. We get much to predictable, at one stage Ross Taylor was generating counterfeits of shots.

3. Know when to take Powerplay. Shakib didn't take it, Riyadh didn't take it....2 unnecessary wickets lost.

4. Slogging != T20

5. Drop Ash.

6. Shamim Chowdhury Rule Yes, one should learn from one's mistakes but one should also start with a blank tablet each game.

7. Keep 90% of the shots as ground shots as did Tamim before he was unwisely declared ouot. Even in Powerplay try to find the gaps instead of just lobbing over inner circle.

8. Bowling at line and length with good rhythm is more important than fast bowling. It's like being obsessed with aces in tennis whilst making constant double faults.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Beamer
I touched on what needs to be done to make them mentally tough. Now, to answer Miraz's question of where lies the problem of constant failures from positions of strength? I would have have to say TWO things that usually leads to that and we have an abundant of those TWO ingredients. One- Over confident players who start the collapse. Two- players who play with a lot of fear who continue and complete the collapse. Fear comes in many forms. Some are afraid of pace, some afraid of their low return of runs, some afraid of losing the next wkt, some afraid of keeping their spot in the place etc etc. You can not play with fear and our middle order traditionally have players who are exactly that. Tamim plays without any fear, gets his runs, but usually goes after a moment of overconfidence. Collapse happens in and around after his wkt. Then, we parade in Ash & Rock- two guys who are simply afraid of their future. Sakib follows, boasting a difficult state of mind, and he is obliging duely. Other opener is good for 30 -40 runs on a good day. So, there goes the entire top order in a matter of an eye blink. Then, some resistance comes from the bottom, because the pressure of winning is gone and they do some patch work. This is the current story. In the previous era, Bashar was the Tamim - he played without fear, but went agianst the run of play all of a sudden, which started the collapse just as now, because we have always managed to place the most vulnerable ( mental state ) cricketers in the middle to cope with adversity. Just as now, Pilot, Rafiq and co.back then salvaged the situation somewhat in lower order without having the pressure to win. Bottom line : You can not play any sport with fear. Look at our middle order now. Ash is afraid of his own life. He doesn't know whether he should live or die. Rok is glued to the ground. Sakib is not fearful but not in a positive frame of mind. No wonder the collpase is happening.

well said!

[Zeeshan]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
well said!

I agree. Beamer bhai should incorporate it in a fear of failure type of article and post it!

[hbk619]

Originally Posted by chol_bd123
Shakib lost his form in batting and bowling. He sucks with the bowl. Even Naeem bowled better then him yesterday

when will his proud session end? I'm waiting

[Zeeshan]

Not to derail this thread but Beamer bhai have you read Sacred Hoops? I am gonna order it soon. I'd love to have someone like Phil Jackson as Zen Master to drill discipline out of these clowns. Something like cricket boot camp or the football hell week.

http://www.watphrasri.iirt.net/eng/Phill%20Jackson.htm
http://buddhism.about.com/gi/dynamic...kson%5F50.html

[Beamer]

Z

No, I haven't read it. But, I think we need help in that regard for our players. I think Fear or Failure is playing a hard role for some key players of the team. I am not much of a writer. You should go ahead. Idea is there.

Peace
I very much agree with you. Our fans need to be a lot more understanding. Its not gonna happen overnight. The individual improvements are there, but to be a world beater, I am afraid we might have to wait for another generation. These guys are actually paving the way just as the guys before this current lot did it for them. I doubt an opener in 1995 hits a test century against India. In the meantime, we will continue to play and improve. The cricket itself , the fans, the culture of cricket, the education of cricket ( publications, books, mags, analysts ) will need to mature and grow, which will happen eventually. Above all, the players themselves need to be students of cricket, on and off the field.

[Haradhon]

I have read the postings (by MIraz, Al Fuqaan, Bearmer and others); they are great and I hope JS and BCB read them.
The main problem that needs to be fixed is top order collapse; we need to do some patchwork for now right away, perhaps before the NZ series ends. I would promote Shakib up the order at No. 3 or 4, and put Ash at no. 6 or 7. The combination of Raqibul and Shakib might work better because of their style and I think we should take Ash out of this pressure situation and let Shakib handle the situation. If Ash does not perform at 6/7, he should be out of the national team after the upcoming England series.

[zainab]

Well, when you have a bunch of young cricketers whose average age is 22.5 yrs playing against cricketers in other teams whose average age is over 27 years and who have had to perform outstandingly in domestic cricket for years in order to gain a place in the national team and perform well to retain their place, what do you expect? it is boys playing men.
When these boys become men, then their standard of cricket will improve. because 5 yrs advantage is quite substantial for a cricketer to mature into a good mentally balanced player.

[yaseer]

• Our players are not good enough.
• Our Management are the worst and have no idea how to develop a cricketing nation.

Combination of these two is behind the results we are getting in the international stage for the last 10 years. It is hard to accept, But this is the true fact.

Whatever win/success we have achieved against the top teams are the result of -

• Complecency from the opposition and an individual taking advantage of that and played brilliantly.
• Result of law of average of playing that many years in this level; we won some.

I am not taking anything away from our players. They are showing/giving best of their ability. Whenever they got the chance from the opposition, they are trying their best to take that. But to win consistently, they do not have what it takes.

I have started to believe that we have been expecting more than what we are capable of. If the opposition is not complacent against us, we have almost no chance to pull of win.

Multan- We all know how weak that Pakistan team was. Lots of new players were debuted in that series. Why we never played such a fighting test series? Is it because our players are not consistent or we never get that much weak test team to play against?

Fatullah- We all know how tired that Australia team was when they arrived Bangladesh to play the test series after a long South Africa tour. Brett Lee commented after the first day of the Fatuallh test, "I was just going through the motion." But when Australia were pushed, they came back to their real game - we all know what happened on that whole series from 3rd day of fatullah test and onwards.

we can go on like this........

Most recent against India, we had the complacent Indian batting in the Chittagong test and 2 of our bowlers were able to take the advantage. India coming back from then on, is it, we are failing or India not complacent anymore? Then again in 2nd innings of 2nd test, when our defeat was just a matter of time, we had complacent Indian bowling that time, 2 of our batsmen able to take the advantage. We all know what happened next morning when Indian bowlers were in a different mood.

So, we are just able to take advantage of that moments of the game when opposition is relaxed and reach to a "fake" "position of strength". It is just a matter of time for the opposition to pull us back to the reality.

I am not writing this to undermine our achievements. Just trying to be neutral and giving no tolerance to my passion to our cricket in my mind.

Under this management and current bunch of players (including academy, A, age-group), we are just good enough reach to "position of strength" and eventually be pulled back by the opposition and fail. Our only hope is, "law of average" may give us a win after 15/20 matches against top teams.

[M.H.Rubel]

Thanks everybody for fruitfull discussion and openion.Anyway i am giving my openion about constant failure from good positions:
SAD BUT TRUE
1.Our players are not as tallented as world class team should have.
2.Most of the players are very inexperienced.
3.Mentally our players are very weak.
4.They are not used to play in competitive games.
5.They are not used to play in longer version matches.
Above all are very much negative side of our cricket.But i want to say that with a very limited fascility we have improved a lot.How much Srilanka did in their first 10 years of test status?I want to say we are in right track.What we need is just 3 thing :
1.Need to play more FC cricket.What we have that will do but need to increase number of matches.
2.Very easy solution make the DPL 50 over matches to 100 over 2 day match it will produce lot of good cricketers.
3.Last but not least all fans need to be more patient about improvement(Including me).

Posted via BC Mobile Edition

[zainab]

The cricket infrastructure in BD is the worst of all the Asian countries, they do not play enough of the longer version of the game in domestic cricket. How long they do not fix this, they will not have mentally balanced cricketers who are able to pounce on the oppositions' weakness and win games, also, as so many people on this forum have reiterated, BCB should invite other countries A teams or Academy teams to come to BD and play 4 day games.

[Neel Here]

Originally Posted by M.H.Rubel
How much Srilanka did in their first 10 years of test status?I want to say we are in right track.

I don't want to knock it but sri lanka did quite a lot in their first ten years. this habit of pointing to other's failures has to stop.

check how many tests they drew and won in the first 5 years. http://stats.cricinfo.com/srilanka/e...id=8;type=team

ODI format
1982 http://stats.cricinfo.com/srilanka/e...am=8;type=year
1983
http://stats.cricinfo.com/srilanka/e...am=8;type=year

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Miraz
I would promote Mushfiq/Naeem at number 3 and will give him a long enough run to establish him in that position.

Mushi was given a short run but failed. If you are ready to give a long run with someone to get settled amidst repeated failures, what's the problem with current long run team management is giving to someone? What promise the others are doing/showing to succeed that the current one isn't doing/showing? We shouldnt forget that Ash was given this place after all prospective players (Rakib, Mushi ..etc) failed. You really can't keep experimenting with this position when you know the possible outcome. Let it rest with the most experienced one. If he can't others surely can't. We have huge problem with opening, other middle order positions, keeping, Bowling, even finishing at the tail. Nayeem & Riyad could possibly pushed one position up that exposes the tail further and doesn't solve the vaccum in middle order completely. So we have a lot to do than worrying too much about number 3.

[Rath_Mama]

Originally Posted by BD-Shardul
বুঝলাম রে ভাই। কিন্তু পাইপলাইন থেকে যাদের আনবেন, তাদের দিয়ে যে হবে, সেটার গ্যারান্টি কি? গ্যারান্টি নাই। কারণ আমাদের পাইপলাইন এমন খেলোয়ার প্রস্তুত করে না, যারা আন্তর্জাতিক ম্যাচে ধারাবাহিক ভাবে পারফর্ম করার জন্য ট্যাকনিকাল ও মানসিকভাবে যোগ্য। জাতীয় দলের কলিমুদ্দি খারাপ খেললে, আমরা ভাবি, নির্বাচক-ব্যবস্থাপকেরা ভাবে, সলিমুদ্দি নামক প্রতিভাবান প্লেয়ার আনলে কাজ হবে। তারপর নতুন মুখ সলিমুদ্দির ট্যালান্ট এর ঠেলায় দুই-তিন ম্যাচে পাবলিকের থাকে না হুঁশ। ব্যস এই পর্যন্তই। সলিমুদ্দির ট্যালন্ট হঠাৎ করেই দলকে সামনে নেয়ার পরিবর্তে উলটা জগদ্দল পাথরেরে মত দলের বোঝা হয়ে দাঁড়ায়। যেমন হয়েছে আশরাফুল, রকিবুল। কিন্তু, সামনে তো আমাদের এগুতে হবেই। তবে আসল সমস্যার সমাধান না করে আমরা হারিকেন নিয়ে বেরিয়ে পড়ি নতুন সলিমদ্দির, নতুন মাসিয়াহর খোঁজে। পেয়েও যাই। টেস্ট স্ট্যাটাস পাওয়ার ১০ বছর পরও সেজন্য ধারাবাহিক পরাজয়ের পর, লজ্জার মাথা খেয়ে, ৩২ দন্ত নিরাভরণ করে আমাদের বলতে হয় "বেরাদার, আমাদের দলটা খুব তরুণ ত, খেলা শিখছে"।

Thats the truth Very Well Said . Also Same thing i mentioned before in here in my Thread called Bangladesh cricket....