Fast Bowling

[TimAus]

A coach can't walk in and say that none of his players are any good. I don't think Bangladesh have the talent in the fast bowling arena that some other teams have, especially Australia, South Africa and England, but I also don't believe they're as terrible as some results would suggest. Bangladesh pace bowlers need to make sure they're constantly improving and are bowling the right lines and lengths. I think apart from Shahadat Hossain they have a good group of accurate medium fast guys who could be successful internationally. Just look at what Chaminda Vaas, Zaheer Khan and Chris Martin have achieved bowling in the low 130s. The key for them is planning, discipline and more experience.

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Interesting observation of the fast bowlers - comparing them to anderson, roach, broad, bresnan, steyn, cummings, hilfenhaus, philander, malinga, gul, etc, etc, etc

Thoughts?

Who is Cummings? Unless you mean Pat Cummins but he's a teenager who's only played 4 first class games so it's tough to compare him to anyone, let alone the best in the world. If you wanted another Aussie it should have been Siddle, he's our best and fastest quick.

[fiasnahk]

Speed is good but accuracy and swing is much more vital. All the legends who had speed also had good accuracy. Waqar wouldnt have been famous for his yorkers if he didnt get them on target of the stumps. Similarly people like Sami and Tait arent in their squads because they are wayward. People have built entire careers based on accuracy, like Mcgrath, but people wnt be able to do so with only pace.

[World Champs]

Originally Posted by kalpurush
Bangladesh pacers are on par or EVEN better than any Indian bowlers at the moment IMHO if you consider only SPEED.

LOL....

[Blah]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Fact is, if you can bowl 150 kph plus, you are a pretty special bowler, not some random chump who doesn't know what he is doing.

I will take a match winner over a pretty special bowler any day of the week.

I will take a philander/mcgrath over a tait/lee any day of the week.

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by Blah
I will take a match winner over a pretty special bowler any day of the week.

I will take a philander/mcgrath over a tait/lee any day of the week.

The basic premise of this discussion was, "if the bangladesh bowlers had raw pace, would it be better".. As you appear not to have categorised Shaun Tait and Brett Lee as match winners (amazingly) would you prefer them to Nazmul, Shafiul, Mash or Rubel?

I would love to have Tait and Lee in their prime over almost every other bowler playing International cricket bowling in Dhaka. And to have two Bangladeshis this pace would be unbelievable.

Philander (perhaps in time) and McGrath (historically) are massively efficient bowlers. Tait and Lee massively explosive and quick. On Dhaka pitches it is the pace through the air that unsettles batsmen, not movement off a flat pitch. After a while, the spinners replace the medium pacers as we all know, because they are not that effective on Dhaka and Chittagong pitches unless they swing it. Philander and McGrath are not massive swing bowlers. Steyn and Anderson yes, but not those two.

The argument of pace in Bangladesh is a moot one anyway as there is not a desire to bowl quick. But extreme pace would definitely make a massive difference in Bangladesh - just ask any of the batsmen.

If you rely on movement off the pitch you need a bit of grass which isn't there in Dhaka. If you rely on speed, you just need the ball. the pitch doesn't matter if you got gas. Mohammed Sami showed this at the BPL.

[mufi_02]

Good discussion.

Ian, why do you think there is this reluctance to bowl quick in BD? Is it because of the slow pitches? I don't know about pitches in Pak or SL, but they seem to produce bowlers with "raw speed". But you don't need the assistance of pitches if you want to bowl with extreme speed. If you have the ability, then you don't depend on pitches. You just rush in and bowl quick. So in that way, we can't blame the pitches. So in conclusion, I think its the lack of desire or passion. Most of the youngsters either dream of becoming a batsmen or SLAs.

[Kohli_Sox]

I might be totally wrong but strong "born" stamina also requires. Some people are born with strong power in biceps. Lol again I might be wrong. I would like to know more of this from Ian Pont about the effectiveness of born "stamina" in fast bowling. Also broad shoulders require I think.

[Navo]

I think part of the issue is that domestic coaches encourage their proteges to become SLAs or batsmen because they think that will increase the players chances of getting higher cricketing honors. A recent article posted on BC spoke about this. Besides Pacer Hunts, maybe the BCB should invest in special incentives for fast bowlers so that more kids dream of becoming a fast bowler?

Also, Ian, does Rubel have the ability to be a 150+ kmph bowler? (Assuming he recovers fully from his shoulder operation) Does he have the desire? Because otherwise he seems to be in good shape?

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by mufi_02
Good discussion.

Ian, why do you think there is this reluctance to bowl quick in BD? Is it because of the slow pitches? I don't know about pitches in Pak or SL, but they seem to produce bowlers with "raw speed". But you don't need the assistance of pitches if you want to bowl with extreme speed. If you have the ability, then you don't depend on pitches. You just rush in and bowl quick. So in that way, we can't blame the pitches. So in conclusion, I think its the lack of desire or passion. Most of the youngsters either dream of becoming a batsmen or SLAs.

When a kid is playing tape ball cricket or street cricket he knows nothing of slow pitches in the DPL. I think it is not slow pitches that stop him. And you are right to point out that it has to be a desire. It is whether someone grows wanting to be a fast bowler that motivates them. Young bowlers need heros. Bangladesh doesn't have any 150 kph fast bowling heros of its own.

Someone, somewhere must be passionate about pace bowling in Bangladesh for them to have the heart and desire to do the work needed to become a fast bowler. I just haven't seen that yet.

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by Kohli_Sox
I might be totally wrong but strong "born" stamina also requires. Some people are born with strong power in biceps. Lol again I might be wrong. I would like to know more of this from Ian Pont about the effectiveness of born "stamina" in fast bowling. Also broad shoulders require I think.

Everything you need to be a fast bowler you can develop. Whether it is strength, stamina, desire, drive, ambition, flexibility, etc. Understanding what to do and how to do it, is really the key to bowling fast.

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by Navo
I think part of the issue is that domestic coaches encourage their proteges to become SLAs or batsmen because they think that will increase the players chances of getting higher cricketing honors. A recent article posted on BC spoke about this. Besides Pacer Hunts, maybe the BCB should invest in special incentives for fast bowlers so that more kids dream of becoming a fast bowler?

Also, Ian, does Rubel have the ability to be a 150+ kmph bowler? (Assuming he recovers fully from his shoulder operation) Does he have the desire? Because otherwise he seems to be in good shape?

It is fine to have a pacer hunt and ID potential, but what do you do to develop that into a world class fast bowler? Unless you are going to be coaching speed into bowlers how are they going to get their pace up to 150 kph? Supreme understanding of biomechanics and how that works for each bowler you coach has to be there, otherwise the bowlers will not develop fully. This is partly why coaches encourage batting and slow bowling, and fast bowling coaches teach run up and how to hold a cricket ball, mindset and strength training because you don't need to understand biomechanics to do that.

A pacer hunt and spending time coaching potential quicks only works if what you coach them actually increases their pace. Otherwise you are simply relying on what they came with.

Rubel bowled a ball at 149 kph in the WC in 2011 against West Indies. He is a reluctant fast bowler though. Often his speed will be around 135 kph so I feel he does the minimum required in his training and whilst he does what he is told to do, the point about desire is that it comes from inside you. My personal view is Rubel, if he chose to be, could be a seriously quick fast bowler. It might just all be a bit too hard work for him. He's a great lad and always happy and smiling. But underachieves when he has more to offer. I am hoping his injury gives him the chance to build up and come back stronger, keener and with a huge passion for pace.

[mufi_02]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Everything you need to be a fast bowler you can develop. Whether it is strength, stamina, desire, drive, ambition, flexibility, etc. Understanding what to do and how to do it, is really the key to bowling fast.

This is good to hear. I am not that built. My top speed is only 115 kph but I never had any formal training. This winter I practiced in the indoor facility in NJ and I saw you did some coaching courses there last year. If I knew, I would have definitely came and got some tips

As you said, it takes a lot to be a fast bowler. Out of the current lot, I like Peter Siddle's aggression and passion. Even if its the last over in the day (Test), he will run hard and bowl his heart out.

[Navo]

Dale Steyn too - whether it is a Test match or an IPL T20, he really steams in. His match winning spell for the Deccan Chargers against the Delhi Daredevils (I think) was incredible to watch. Such hostility and skill.

[BD Rox]

Originally Posted by Kohli_Sox
I might be totally wrong but strong "born" stamina also requires. Some people are born with strong power in biceps. Lol again I might be wrong. I would like to know more of this from Ian Pont about the effectiveness of born "stamina" in fast bowling. Also broad shoulders require I think.

We BD people eat 'Dal-Bhat'.....LOL.

[Gowza]

glad that the coach is involving himself in the fast bowling camps, aside from improving local coaches knowledge this is a great way to impart knowledge onto the players and also scope out the talent and the prospects.

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by Gowza
glad that the coach is involving himself in the fast bowling camps, aside from improving local coaches knowledge this is a great way to impart knowledge onto the players and also scope out the talent and the prospects.

I wouldn't get too excited about camps like these except for meeting and greeting the locals.

It is a good way to see local boys and discover if there is some raw talent (as you say 'scoping' out the prospects) , but you cannot do much very meaningful except pass on tips. That doesn't really impact and is not 'coaching' cricket. This is why when you have a "big name" come in for a workshop or camp, the impact is almost nil. That's because the work has to be done for long, hard hours under supervision and guidance over a long period of time.

As an example, I am currently in India working with Ranji team Haryana. I have had 17 quicks for one month almost and we are starting to see some good progress. But this is every single day, drills, nets, video reviews and interaction. It is taking this long and that depth of intervention and support, to see positive and lasting progression. Plus of course, my coaching methods are highly advanced and I have to educate the bowlers first.

I am doing here, what I was never able to do in Bangladesh - get access to players for long enough to make the difference I would have wanted. I cannot imagine the progression in Nazmul, Rubel, Shahadat and Shafiul plus Babu, Faisal Rabbi and others like Emon Ahmed, if I had a one month intense camp like this one here.

So whilst it is terrific to see coaches seeing fresh faces and passing on some tips about how to hold a cricket ball or what line to bowl, I don't think the local coaches or the players will suddenly develop into International stars.

The secret of successful coaching is about two things:

1. The time you can spend with a player (access)
2. What you actually coach in that time (content)

Having run a successful cricket academy for 19 years, I can say that workshops and camps are not the answer. Only a long-term, well-structured, fully-funded programme is.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
Having run a successful cricket academy for 19 years, I can say that workshops and camps are not the answer. Only a long-term, well-structured, fully-funded programme is.

Absofreakinlutely coach. Couldn't agree more

[Gowza]

Of course I agree the longer you get to spend with a player the better and results don't happen overnight but at least the coach is going to the camp and involving himself in more than just the national team itself

[Tigers_eye]

Our COUCHING is done in the national team. A little too late.

[mufi_02]

I agree that a long-term programme will find and nurture the talent. Is Haryana academy funded by BCCI or state board? I heard that you were in talks with Tommy Miah for a similar academy in Sylhet. It was in the news that Ian Botham will come and open it. What is going on with it?

[zinatf]

Originally Posted by mufi_02
I agree that a long-term programme will find and nurture the talent. Is Haryana academy funded by BCCI or state board? I heard that you were in talks with Tommy Miah for a similar academy in Sylhet. It was in the news that Ian Botham will come and open it. What is going on with it?

Sounds great! Ian please do reply...would love to hear if there's any update to it.....

[Ian Pont]

Originally Posted by mufi_02
I agree that a long-term programme will find and nurture the talent. Is Haryana academy funded by BCCI or state board? I heard that you were in talks with Tommy Miah for a similar academy in Sylhet. It was in the news that Ian Botham will come and open it. What is going on with it?

Working with the HCA is their own initiative. It's a long term plan to ID and produce pace bowlers. Apart from Harshal Patel (who debuted for Royal Challengers Banglaore in the IPL) who is a great prospect, we have Mohit Sharma who is someone that could go on to play for India in the next year or so.

With regard to TMCA, it is disappointing to report that I have heard nothing, or had a response from Tommy, for almost a year. I guess he is doing his own thing and I wish him well though. I know he was trying to get some big names involved for PR and publicity. If it all goes ahead as planned it will be a great facility. Let's hope the local lads can all benefit.

[LateCut]

"Shane is inSane" if he is comparing our dibbly-dobbly pacers with frontline bowlers outside the subcontinent. We touch the speed of the fringe bowlers of those nations but never apporach consitency and accuracy that are commonly observed there. You cannot develop quickies when openning the innings with SLAs bring success in the slow and low pitches prevelant here.

[fiasnahk]

Ian isnt it time for another pacer hunt? The last time we did it we got someone like rubel to come through. Its been about 3-4 years so maybe we should try it again and see if there are any new prospects out there? Because i think things like seam and swing can be taught whereas speed is something which is inborn...

[tiger1000]

Originally Posted by Ian Pont
It is fine to have a pacer hunt and ID potential, but what do you do to develop that into a world class fast bowler? Unless you are going to be coaching speed into bowlers how are they going to get their pace up to 150 kph? Supreme understanding of biomechanics and how that works for each bowler you coach has to be there, otherwise the bowlers will not develop fully. This is partly why coaches encourage batting and slow bowling, and fast bowling coaches teach run up and how to hold a cricket ball, mindset and strength training because you don't need to understand biomechanics to do that.

A pacer hunt and spending time coaching potential quicks only works if what you coach them actually increases their pace. Otherwise you are simply relying on what they came with.

Rubel bowled a ball at 149 kph in the WC in 2011 against West Indies. He is a reluctant fast bowler though. Often his speed will be around 135 kph so I feel he does the minimum required in his training and whilst he does what he is told to do, the point about desire is that it comes from inside you. My personal view is Rubel, if he chose to be, could be a seriously quick fast bowler. It might just all be a bit too hard work for him. He's a great lad and always happy and smiling. But underachieves when he has more to offer. I am hoping his injury gives him the chance to build up and come back stronger, keener and with a huge passion for pace.

You talk alot about speed, people ask alot about why BD can't produce 150+ Fast bowlers - Surley that has to do with their genes and physical capability - obviously I don't know anything close to what you know about bowling, but I have talk to many fitness trainers and coach's of other sports (mainly MMA and Boxing), most things I get is that Explosive Power is down to what you are born with - With correct technique you can add a small percentage to this and you are able to use more of your muscles, but it would still would be dictated by what you are born with - in cricketing terms does that mean a 135 bowler can never exceed 145, to touch one 150 you need to be naturally able to bowl over 140 without too much difficulty?

Fitness trainers of boxing/MMA (who have degree's to back up their knowledge (I cant remember the exact degree)) say that most normal people only use about 25% of their muscle capacity or Strength when they want to fully use it due to lack of technique, most professional athletes use only 50-60%, with improved technique they can improve on their powers, but a average strength person will never be as naturally gifted in this department as a Powerfull person and even with training and technique you wont be able to match the powerfull athletes - I want to know how much of this actually translates into cricket?

I know alot of power is natural because from experience in boxing you can get guys in perfect shape - but couldn't punch through a wet paper bag, then you get guy's with a wiry skinny frame, who are not that fast nor do they have very good technique, but a clean punch could switch your lights off