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  #26  
Old February 21, 2011, 09:52 PM
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To establish something to be unbroken and error free is not an easy task to begin with. Fixing or even mitigation is another issue. If we try to handle every other aspects around us just like the 'managment pundits' do , things will surely get messy like the credit crunch and financial downfall that we see in present days. The bottom line is very simple - act before it is too late to mourn.
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  #27  
Old February 21, 2011, 10:05 PM
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Another problem is not willing to take power play early when Shakib, Mushi, Mahmudullah or Rokib batting. Its perfectly fine not going for 4s and 6s but looking for gaps and fetch 2s, but if players like Sakib, Mushi co., are not good enough to do that job, or fear losing wickets then who will it be? Certainly our tail will NOT do any good! Besides, not taking power play early [when Shakib, Mushi co. batting] means oppositions saving their best bowlers and overs to clean up the tail so easy. So, in that sense we also losing minimum contribution from our tail that we used to get.

As long as BD is concern, power play responsibility should be taken by Shakib, Mushi + Rokib, Mhamudullah to some extend, leaving it to tail enders [bowlers] actually costing us double way. Its about our strategic problem which comes 1st, Mahmudullah, Nayeem, Shuvo are not good enough comes 2nd IMO. And in this world cup we must have to do something if we even look for QF. I am not asking to break anything but to bring max from what we have got.
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  #28  
Old February 21, 2011, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan

That leaves Junaid and SN.

Junaid has the #3 position, and while I'm not totally sold on him yet, his most recent performances indicate he is has stopped taking his estradiol pills. Shahriar Nafees may be a batsman who can take over for a top order spot, as he is a more "responsible" bat. Regardless, he doesn't have the hitting capability as evidenced from the fact that he's only hit 7 sixes in his ODI career.

i think SN can be an option. he may not be be Six hitting batsman. but as an opening batsman he has the experience of playing in the mandatory PP where fielders are close in. he can play shots in gaps and also over the top. may be he wont get sixs but he may get fours. i feel SN can use the PP3 better than Riad and naaem with the current attitude those two are playing
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  #29  
Old February 21, 2011, 11:26 PM
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Great analysis.... i think our T-20 innings... especially the previous two T-20 world cups should be analysed like this... that would shed some light on Ashraful's hitting capabilities as well...

This analysis clearly shows that even with wickets in hand we are not accelarating in the death overs...
I don't think anyone expects our batters to go boom boom from ball one in the power-play and create a rain of boundaries... but we do expect at the death overs batters will try to maintain a run a ball innings and hit the occasional boundaries... at the bare minimum we expect to see at least an intent to accelarate, be it through hard running or improvisation...or slogs...

my recent memory of slog overs is quite bitter... my memory always plays out like this... it would be Musfiq and Shakib batting and not taking the powerplay... they would both be set and maintain decent strike rates gradually taking more and more risks with their shots. At this points fans infront of the TV sets would be screaming for the powerplay to no avail. In the very next over Mushfiq would try to hit and get caught somewhere in deep -mid wicket... Shakib would already be tiring from a long innings by then but would still continue to search for boundaries at at the other end Mahmudullah will block 3 balls and take single off the 4th one... this will continue for a certain period through the 37-43rd over...the pressure to accelarate will get to Shakib and then Shakib will play a tired slog and get out... and after that we will take the power play with Naeem at the crease...
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  #30  
Old February 21, 2011, 11:48 PM
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Ian Pont Ian Pont is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
Another problem is not willing to take power play early when Shakib, Mushi, Mahmudullah or Rokib batting. Its perfectly fine not going for 4s and 6s but looking for gaps and fetch 2s, but if players like Sakib, Mushi co., are not good enough to do that job, or fear losing wickets then who will it be? Certainly our tail will NOT do any good! Besides, not taking power play early [when Shakib, Mushi co. batting] means oppositions saving their best bowlers and overs to clean up the tail so easy. So, in that sense we also losing minimum contribution from our tail that we used to get.

As long as BD is concern, power play responsibility should be taken by Shakib, Mushi + Rokib, Mhamudullah to some extend, leaving it to tail enders [bowlers] actually costing us double way. Its about our strategic problem which comes 1st, Mahmudullah, Nayeem, Shuvo are not good enough comes 2nd IMO. And in this world cup we must have to do something if we even look for QF. I am not asking to break anything but to bring max from what we have got.
I don't disagree... but if you are saying we should take it early and then lose wickets (which we always do), we will have lower order batsman trying to shepherd the team to a total over a LONG TIME. That is madness. We will be probably bowled out before the 50 overs. If the PP is a hinderance to the team JUST IGNORE IT. It's not playing with 45 overs, it's just saying don't take your PP early if you are going to lose all your batsmen trying to slog.

I said that we shouldn't worry about the PP. We won 7 out of 8 ODIs not worrying about it and a 4-0 banglawash of NZ. I would rather concentrate on playing PROPER cricket throughout the 50 overs. Just play cricket is my point. Don't get hung up on 30 balls, that for us have meant losing key batsmen trying to hit out. Just forget it if it is a negative and when it comes enjoy the fact that only 3 fielders are on the boundary at the end.
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  #31  
Old February 22, 2011, 12:39 AM
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Jeeez!! Do I have to dig and get Ash's stat on 6-8 position? It was broken when he was there. What makes you think it will be fixed if he comes in now? Give me a break. I'd take half fit Mash any day. He was in the original squad.

Good thing I didn't change my Sig.
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  #32  
Old February 22, 2011, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Jeeez!! Do I have to dig and get Ash's stat on 6-8 position? It was broken when he was there. What makes you think it will be fixed if he comes in now? Give me a break. I'd take half fit Mash any day. He was in the original squad.

Good thing I didn't change my Sig.

Ash averaging 26.15 at 5th & 29.55 at 6th with over 80 strike rates. 56.00 at 7th with SR of 61.53. Never batted at 8th.

But anyways.. I want to see the same team against Ireland. Everyone deserves a second chance.
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Last edited by Murad; February 22, 2011 at 12:53 AM..
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  #33  
Old February 22, 2011, 12:45 AM
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wny naeem, why not mahmudullah--his SR is worst than naeem, his batting is worst than naeem in ODI, fielding and bowling naeem is better than mahmudullah
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  #34  
Old February 22, 2011, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
I don't disagree... but if you are saying we should take it early and then lose wickets (which we always do), we will have lower order batsman trying to shepherd the team to a total over a LONG TIME. That is madness. We will be probably bowled out before the 50 overs. If the PP is a hinderance to the team JUST IGNORE IT. It's not playing with 45 overs, it's just saying don't take your PP early if you are going to lose all your batsmen trying to slog.
....
Thank you coach for your response.

Yes, taking power play early + getting out early is indeed a problem we have experienced, seen many times Sakib, Mushi getting out soon after they take power play, mainly because they try to hit out or not finding the gap for 1s or 2s.

1. However, since our strategy is to fetch 1s and 2s from power play, isnt it better to be played by proper batsman than tail enders or bowlers? I am not against this sensible strategy, rather saying better batsman like Shakib and Mushi should be up for this strategy. If they fear losing wickets playing for 1s, 2s [not trying slog anyway] in power play, I dont know what to expect from the tail for that same job! since most of the time they fall before 45 overs anyway.

2. Secondly, if they play out oppositions best bowlers overs then our tail can add as much as they can if needed, without field restriction and regular bowlers bowling perhaps.

By completely ignoring that 30 balls, as long as Shakib, Mushi does not survive up to 45 over and play in PP, we are eventually facing best bowlers with field restriction, from which our mediocre tail enders cant even score couple of runs per over, even we play out full 50 overs. We ends up a good looking innings finishes in a frustrating manner.
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  #35  
Old February 22, 2011, 02:11 AM
napoleonIV napoleonIV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Pont
I said that we shouldn't worry about the PP. We won 7 out of 8 ODIs not worrying about it and a 4-0 banglawash of NZ. I would rather concentrate on playing PROPER cricket throughout the 50 overs. Just play cricket is my point. Don't get hung up on 30 balls, that for us have meant losing key batsmen trying to hit out. Just forget it if it is a negative and when it comes enjoy the fact that only 3 fielders are on the boundary at the end.
Coach, let me first thank you for your very valuable input. It is certainly making this forum much richer. I agree that we shouldn't take PP just for the sake of hitting out and in the process lose vital wickets.

However, if our batsmen feel like hitting out anyway then shouldn't we take the PP to minimize the chance of losing wickets? For example, in the last match, Shakib got out when trying to hit over the top. If he had made up his mind to do that, then wouldn't it have made more sense to take the PP and lessen the risk of his finding a fielder in the boundary?
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  #36  
Old February 22, 2011, 02:35 AM
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shakibrulz shakibrulz is offline
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Not another thread demanding Ash's inclusion (yes I did read the OP)

Sure, naeem and Riyad are clearly ineffective at the lower order, but that doesn't surely mean Ash should be called back, even as a slogger. He drops catches, is a worse bowler than both Riyad and Naeem and batting, well I'd bet my money on Shafiul getting into double figures than Ash. He's got like 164 friggin chances to prove his worth, and if he's still in this team, that would clearly affect the team morale. Above all Shakib doesn't want him in the team.

So lets see how Rokibul does at #6. He's clearly capable of clearing the fielders/finding the gaps, so anyday a better option than all the above. If someone is to replace Naeem/Riyad, it should be Nazmul/Nafees imo.
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  #37  
Old February 22, 2011, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakibrulz
Not another thread demanding Ash's inclusion (yes I did read the OP)

Sure, naeem and Riyad are clearly ineffective at the lower order, but that doesn't surely mean Ash should be called back, even as a slogger. He drops catches, is a worse bowler than both Riyad and Naeem and batting, well I'd bet my money on Shafiul getting into double figures than Ash. He's got like 164 friggin chances to prove his worth, and if he's still in this team, that would clearly affect the team morale. Above all Shakib doesn't want him in the team.

So lets see how Rokibul does at #6. He's clearly capable of clearing the fielders/finding the gaps, so anyday a better option than all the above. If someone is to replace Naeem/Riyad, it should be Nazmul/Nafees imo.
not even worth responding to when you talk about fielding and don't ask to bring in Rajin Saleh.
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  #38  
Old February 22, 2011, 09:44 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Jeeez!! Do I have to dig and get Ash's stat on 6-8 position? It was broken when he was there. What makes you think it will be fixed if he comes in now? Give me a break. I'd take half fit Mash any day. He was in the original squad.

Good thing I didn't change my Sig.
3 words, Mijan bhai...more like 2 numbers and one word to be precise:

8 off 14.

in a batting PP, where Associates like Netherlands know what to do with it.
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  #39  
Old February 22, 2011, 09:54 AM
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I support Ash's inclusion to solve our PP problems. it will also solve our bowling problem as Ash is a proven spinner.

Here is what I said to justify his inclusion...

Quote:
Last one year Ash has played 5 games with a dominating average of 12.40 and an amazing SR of 50; his career SR is 70

Yes Ash is the solution for our PP debacle.

During that time (last year) he also bowled 5 overs with an Econ Rate of 5.60; and career Econ Rate 5.83.

So you can see the improvement here.


So I say, why wait, bring our golden boy to solve our PP problem. Not only he can bat, be can also bowl.
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  #40  
Old February 22, 2011, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
not even worth responding to when you talk about fielding and don't ask to bring in Rajin Saleh.
Wha ?

My point whether it's 8(3) or 10(16) it's all the same at the end of the day. Rokibul (and I'm not a fan of his btw) looked decent in the warmup game vs pak and in the last game vs Ind, so might as well give him a go rather than hope Ash hits a few boundaries.
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  #41  
Old February 22, 2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakibrulz
Wha ?

My point whether it's 8(3) or 10(16) it's all the same at the end of the day. Rokibul (and I'm not a fan of his btw) looked decent in the warmup game vs pak and in the last game vs Ind, so might as well give him a go rather than hope Ash hits a few boundaries.
in both the pak and ind game rokibul didn't have any pressure on him..the match was already lost..i doubt he can score quickly with pressure...on the other hand ash is a big gamble..he can click or he can fail..with majority of percentage on failing..WC is not the stage to take such gamble..but i see we have no other option
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  #42  
Old February 22, 2011, 10:43 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakibrulz
Wha ?

My point whether it's 8(3) or 10(16) it's all the same at the end of the day. Rokibul (and I'm not a fan of his btw) looked decent in the warmup game vs pak and in the last game vs Ind, so might as well give him a go rather than hope Ash hits a few boundaries.
so who bats at 7 and 8? rokibul Sr and rokibul Jr?

if you don't bat the 50 overs, then yes, it is the same either way. and the only justification for holding onto the present lineup is "there isn't any better option". again, i beg to differ.

Ash's SR at 6-8 positions career is 76 which is better than the Naeem/Riyad figures of 59 and 69 at the same positions over the last 20 games. Ash also did not have the benefit of batting PPs for 14 out of the 16 innings in which he batted at 6-8. Naeem/Riyad also had plenty of chances against the weaker teams to beef up their numbers.

No matter how the pickle is being served, its still not sweet.

If the objective is to score quickly, then why not pick the guy who has the fastest Test, ODI, and T20 fifties in BD history?

The idea is that Ashraful has failed in his last 10 innings, so he can't play ahead of Naeem/Riyad who have failed at their batting roles (lets not forget that they are picked not to bowl or take wickets or to restrict runs, but to score them) in the last 20 matches.

Frankly the excuses to not pick Ash are now more numerous than his excuses of failures. He can't field (which is not true, btw) as if Ashraful is expected to field of his own batting during OUR innings. He can't bowl (which is true), as if he is expected to bowl to himself during OUR innings. Whats next, Ashraful can't keep wicket during the Bangladesh innings, therefore he shouldn't be picked.

Like I've said, in the last 20 or so games, we've had 1 decent finish to our innings. And these are decent finishes, not good ones. Our last good one was 92 runs in Dunedin. But you can count that one decent finish out cuz Mpofu was bowling 5 wides here and there in his final over. Even then Naeem scored at less than a run a ball.
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  #43  
Old February 22, 2011, 11:02 AM
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This is Ashraful's record in the position between 6 and 8..What got u excited i dont know..he had one decent innings vs SL..and other good innings was vs the associates and zim
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  #44  
Old February 22, 2011, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Night_wolf
This is Ashraful's record in the position between 6 and 8..What got u excited i dont know..he had one decent innings vs SL..and other good innings was vs the associates and zim
You should inlcude 51* vs Zim as one of the decent innings @ no 6-8.....back then Zim was a strong team and we won that match too coz of Ashraful; 50 from 31 balls(correct me if im wrong)
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  #45  
Old February 22, 2011, 11:12 AM
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^yap that was an awesome innings..it was of 32 balls...i would love to have that ash back..2004 and 2005 was his best years..and yet they sucked in the statistics..

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64878.html this is the match u r talking about
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  #46  
Old February 22, 2011, 11:25 AM
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There are different way to see the stat. Here is another way:

Let’s compare Naeem’s career vs Ash’s career stat and let’s see how replacing Naeem with Ash changes our team one way or other. This without consideration of the two players’ fielding and other deficiencies (run outs).

1. Naeem has average of 27.30 with SR 64.76. That means he last around 42 Balls on average.
2. Ash has average of 23.33 with SR 70.79. That means he last around 22 Balls on Average.
3. Usually we take power play between 40th to 46th over. Plus in India’s game our #7/#8 batsman came around 40th over.

For the sake of the analysis, I am picking 40th over when Ash/Naeem would have come around the power play. So basically 10 overs left i.e. 60 balls left. So Ash/Naeem would get 30 balls so show their heroics (based on past performance)

How much each would score with 30 balls based on his SR?

Naeem with his career SR 64.76 of is expected to score 19.4 runs
Ash with his career SR 70.79 of is expected to score 21.2 runs

Advantage Ashraful : a net gain of (21.2 – 19.4) = 1.89 ~ 2 runs.

Now lets assume an all-rounder, they are expected to bowl at-least 5 overs on average.

Naeem with his career Econ Rate of 4.89 would give = 24.45 runs
Ash has a career Econ Rate of 5.89 would give = 29.45 runs

Advantage Naeem : a net gain of (29.45 – 24.45) = 5 runs.

As as an #7 slot all-rounder batting bowling combined Ash would bleed 5-2 = 3 more runs than Naeem.

But Ash has the charm and backing, which Naeem doen't have.
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  #47  
Old February 22, 2011, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
so who bats at 7 and 8? rokibul Sr and rokibul Jr?
I don't care as far as it's not Ash. I'd rather have Javed Omar down there but not Ash.

Quote:
if you don't bat the 50 overs, then yes, it is the same either way. and the only justification for holding onto the present lineup is "there isn't any better option". again, i beg to differ.

Ash's SR at 6-8 positions career is 76 which is better than the Naeem/Riyad figures of 59 and 69 at the same positions over the last 20 games. Ash also did not have the benefit of batting PPs for 14 out of the 16 innings in which he batted at 6-8. Naeem/Riyad also had plenty of chances against the weaker teams to beef up their numbers.
Yeah, neither of them are effective, I agree on that. But how about playing an extra seamer (Nazmul) or an extra proper batsman (Nafees) instead of tried and tested failure like Ashraful?
Quote:
No matter how the pickle is being served, its still not sweet.

If the objective is to score quickly, then why not pick the guy who has the fastest Test, ODI, and T20 fifties in BD history?

The idea is that Ashraful has failed in his last 10 innings, so he can't play ahead of Naeem/Riyad who have failed at their batting roles (lets not forget that they are picked not to bowl or take wickets or to restrict runs, but to score them) in the last 20 matches.

Frankly the excuses to not pick Ash are now more numerous than his excuses of failures. He can't field (which is not true, btw) as if Ashraful is expected to field of his own batting during OUR innings. He can't bowl (which is true), as if he is expected to bowl to himself during OUR innings. Whats next, Ashraful can't keep wicket during the Bangladesh innings, therefore he shouldn't be picked.

Like I've said, in the last 20 or so games, we've had 1 decent finish to our innings. And these are decent finishes, not good ones. Our last good one was 92 runs in Dunedin. But you can count that one decent finish out cuz Mpofu was bowling 5 wides here and there in his final over. Even then Naeem scored at less than a run a ball.
Yeah dream on. Ashraful will magically solve all your powerplay issues. And what makes you think he would click? The once in a blue moon innings he used to play? He's a waste of space, that's a fact and get on with it.
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  #48  
Old February 22, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Night_wolf
in both the pak and ind game rokibul didn't have any pressure on him..the match was already lost..i doubt he can score quickly with pressure...on the other hand ash is a big gamble..he can click or he can fail..with majority of percentage on failing..WC is not the stage to take such gamble..but i see we have no other option
Little evidence>No evidence.

Ash is a complete failure, would trust Rokibul to do better than him anyday.
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  #49  
Old February 22, 2011, 12:32 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Fazal bhai,

check the thread title, it is "if it ain't broke...don't fix it???"

the "it" refers to batting PP/slog overs/lower middle order. that is the problem...the 5th bowler is NOT the problem, at the moment. and even it is, we could have Waqar bowling as our 5th bowling and "it" would still be broken. so almost completely irrelevant point you're making.

But notice how Ashraful has the edge on batting strike rate (which is most relevant to the batting PP) on both absolute terms (your data) and relative terms (my data from OP).

Secondly, Naeem and Riyad are not "all-rounders" they are top order batsman who are being mismanaged into being finishers. They had success early on, but due to whatever reason, they haven't had it for the last 20 matches as shown by our slog overs totals in the OP. Tamim also bowls off spin and has a career 2.50 test economy rate. Doesn't mean he is an all-rounder. If the main bowlers Shafi, Rubel, Shakib, Razzak all bowl well (because that is their job, they aren't here to score runs -except shakib), then the 5th bowler can be anyone and can afford to be expensive.

For now Rock stays, I would dump both of Riyad and Naeem after the IRE game and put in Ash and Shuvo.

Ashraful is not an all-rounder. Neither is Mashrafee. An all-rounder is someone who can get picked in the team if you took one of his capacities away completely. Shakib is an all-rounder because if he couldn't bat, he could be picked as a specialist bowler, and vice versa.

Riyad/Naeem shouldn't be picked for NEITHER. how can you call them all-rounders???

********************

You want to know what our real problem is? As someone mentioned, we are putting guys out of position. Check domestic cricket and check the roles that each batter is best suited for. More than half of our lineup is playing out of place.

Tamim and Imrul are openers - check.
Shakib is a top order - check.

and then the rot starts:

Junaid is an opener - playing at #3.
SN is an opener - playing at #3
Ashraful is a lower order - playing at #4
mushfiq is a #4 - played at #6
Rock is a ? - playing at #6
Riyad is a #4 - playing at 7
Naeem is a #4 - playing at 8
Shubo is a #9/10 - played at 8

I hope you are seeing the pattern?
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Old February 22, 2011, 12:33 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakibrulz
I don't care as far as it's not Ash. I'd rather have Javed Omar down there but not Ash.
then the arguement is closed because you don't know your cricket. you'd prolly also have Munaf Patel open in place of Tendulkar too.
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