Independent Palestinian Statehood and American Veto

[Banglatiger84]

Originally Posted by Equinox
But how many of them are familiar with the techniques used by the Zionists to get rid of Arabs from "their" land. Do they know of the Irgun or Stern gangs and their assasinations across Europe.

even if they knew, you can predict the responses of some of the diehard pro-israelis

it will be:

Well, you cant blame them, Irgun was comprised of Holocaust survivors and after what they went through who cares if a few people were killed.


Just consider when 10 Turks armed with nothing more than knives were killed in the Navi ship, pro-Israelis were blaming them for being "armed and dangerous".
When that American girl, Rachel Corrie IIRC, was crushed by a bulldozer, some Americans were saying "this si what you get for supporting terrorists"


I remember one argument used in an online forum when all evidence showed the zionists fault:

God promised the Holy Land to the Jews and he gave it to them, go argue with God

The blind pro-Israelis are so blind that if Israel starts killing Palestinians babies after torturing them, they will find some twisted way to support it.

[banfan2]

shobi bujhlam kintu ki korle ei israeli lobby theke strong hote parbe muslimra sheita bolen.

[BD_2015]

Originally Posted by kalpurush
Some one has no clue how the world is run!!! I am not in shock though.

With all due respect can you kindly tell me how the world is run and who run’s it? I learnt from this thread and believe now that America; its democracy, foreign policy and its president control by Jewish lobby. I watched many YouTube videos, read articles and heard from many people’s about Jewish lobby and their power but never believed them as true reality. I used to think this conspiracy theory about Zionist, secret society and free mason are myth and exaggerated by so called religious fanatic. Obviously I do believe now as many of you are well educated and from USA.

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by banfan2
shobi bujhlam kintu ki korle ei israeli lobby theke strong hote parbe muslimra sheita bolen.

Easy.

when Muslims return to true deen, Allah will restore power back to Muslims

We need to see beyond our differences and come to common terms, we need to truly understand the message Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam), his closest companions sahabahs(May Allah be pleased with them) and all his predecessor prophets(may Allah's peace be upon them all) talked about.


This will Happen, and it will happen soon. When Allah decides that the Muslims are ready, he will very easily give it to us Nothing is difficult for him....we have to prove our worth and go back to our roots and live life for the sake of Allah instead of for the sake of people.

but how?? Allah will guide us. we just need to be patient and do our part.


may Allah open our hearts to the truth.

[Zunaid]

The Palestinian issue is NOT a Muslim issue. It is about the rights of a people to their own homeland. And re BD2015 - it is the majority of the American populace that is only aware of one side of the issue. And Obama IS beholden to the American people.

[Banglatiger84]

Originally Posted by BD_2015
With all due respect can you kindly tell me how the world is run and who run’s it? I learnt from this thread and believe now that America; its democracy, foreign policy and its president control by Jewish lobby. I watched many YouTube videos, read articles and heard from many people’s about Jewish lobby and their power but never believed them as true reality. I used to think this conspiracy theory about Zionist, secret society and free mason are myth and exaggerated by so called religious fanatic. Obviously I do believe now as many of you are well educated and from USA.

Some of it is definitely exagerrated, but nevertheless Zionist/Freemason/right wing Christians are a definite obstacle to reining in Israel.

Right wing christians are actually often more ardent supporters of Israel than liberal American Jews

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by Zunaid
The Palestinian issue is NOT a Muslim issue. It is about the rights of a people to their own homeland. And re BD2015 - it is the majority of the American populace that is only aware of one side of the issue. And Obama IS beholden to the American people.

brother asked a question about how Muslims can be stronger than Israeli lobby...that's why i gave a "Muslim" Reply nowhere in my reply you will find the word "Palestine"...


btw, when i was in middle school, I had a friend...she was from palestine and she was christian sorry useless info....

[F6_Turbo]

People yelling at Obama
People disappointed in Obama
People who bought into his rhetoric and voted for Obama



I've got a question, we all know about the 'evil' of the US and Israel - but why did Abu Mazen in his speech to the GA at no stage come out with this line...

"I come before you today as a Palestinian, not a muslim, not a christian, not an arab, but a Palestinian - though I and my people are all those things. I, as the representative of the Palestinian people and diaspora, state infront of the world, we are ready to recognize a Jewish Israeli state, here, now, today.... will Israel and the world do the same for one of the last stateless people on this earth?"

Think what a publicity coup that could have been....

We're all grown ups here, so we know reality isn't about fair, it's about what you can do to get what's yours, and in this case, Israel can live with the status-quo for another 50 years, a hell of a lot more than the Palestinians can. So why not appear contrite, why not be more accommodating that you would want to be ideally?

-Give up the calls for the Right to Return. That would render Israel extinct - yes, it's not fair on those refugees, but there is more chance of it snowing in Bangladesh than of that coming to fruition.

-Hurry up and get down to the nitty-gritty of the land exchanges, because while everyone sits and talks about the end game, Israel works everyday to change the reality on the ground to a fait accompli.

The Palestinians have messed this right up in the last decade by not pushing back against the perception this is a case of Islam vs the West, Islam vs Israel, Islam vs Judaism. This is about people, without a home, a nation, a future.

Notice how, Bibi started his speech with references to Islamic extremism....Israel and its supporters have worked the propaganda angle perfectly to change the dialogue, the focus.

Bibi the hawk came out of those speeches, looking like the moderate, the reasonable one, the good guy - the speech by Abu Mazen was one of the more empathic Own Goals I've seen in recent years, and I grew up watching Bangladeshi Politicians go to work

[cluster11]

Well said! I see a lot of criticism of US policies in this thread but I don't see a single criticism of how other Arab nations and the palestenians themselves messed up their own agenda. They are not even a united front! There are 2 seperate govt both trying to claim to be the legitimate leader of their ppl! Consider the following:
- Palestinians want an independent nation
- All middle eastern countries want an independent Palestine
- Most coutnries in the UN wants an independent Palestine
- U.S. "hopes" for an independent Palestine
- Israel also "hopes" for an independent Palestine (at least formally that's what they say)

So what is the problem then? Some key issues are:
- Israeli settlers continue build illegal settlements in Palestinian territory. Israeli govt. has at diff times supported, objected or even destroyed such settlements based on the party in power
- Disagreement on the land area on both sides
- Terrorism has been used as a pawn agenda in negotiation table
- The Palestinian govt. themselves are split into 2 factions and cannot put up a united front in agenda (such as Israel's right to exists which is a basic premise on any negotiation - if you can't even agree on legitimate existence of the party you are negotiating with i don't see how any such meeting can have results!)

For almost all parties (especially Hamas and right-wingers in Israel) this state of conflict works well to use as political capital. And I mean it for everybody! Otherwise we would see real compromise long time ago. What is more important? - One's own country or keeping your nation in refugee camps for 50 yrs hoping to negotiate and gain a bit more land?

That's my 2 cents on the topic.

Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
People yelling at Obama
People disappointed in Obama
People who bought into his rhetoric and voted for Obama



I've got a question, we all know about the 'evil' of the US and Israel - but why did Abu Mazen in his speech to the GA at no stage come out with this line...

"I come before you today as a Palestinian, not a muslim, not a christian, not an arab, but a Palestinian - though I and my people are all those things. I, as the representative of the Palestinian people and diaspora, state infront of the world, we are ready to recognize a Jewish Israeli state, here, now, today.... will Israel and the world do the same for one of the last stateless people on this earth?"

Think what a publicity coup that could have been....

We're all grown ups here, so we know reality isn't about fair, it's about what you can do to get what's yours, and in this case, Israel can live with the status-quo for another 50 years, a hell of a lot more than the Palestinians can. So why not appear contrite, why not be more accommodating that you would want to be ideally?

-Give up the calls for the Right to Return. That would render Israel extinct - yes, it's not fair on those refugees, but there is more chance of it snowing in Bangladesh than of that coming to fruition.

-Hurry up and get down to the nitty-gritty of the land exchanges, because while everyone sits and talks about the end game, Israel works everyday to change the reality on the ground to a fait accompli.

The Palestinians have messed this right up in the last decade by not pushing back against the perception this is a case of Islam vs the West, Islam vs Israel, Islam vs Judaism. This is about people, without a home, a nation, a future.

Notice how, Bibi started his speech with references to Islamic extremism....Israel and its supporters have worked the propaganda angle perfectly to change the dialogue, the focus.

Bibi the hawk came out of those speeches, looking like the moderate, the reasonable one, the good guy - the speech by Abu Mazen was one of the more empathic Own Goals I've seen in recent years, and I grew up watching Bangladeshi Politicians go to work

[BD_2015]

US Congress cuts aids to Palestinians .

[mufi_02]

^^^ USA is cutting foreign aid to whole lot of other countries as well. The US govt wanted to help the recent democratic countries like Tunisia, Libya, Egypt. It was very important to help them through the transition and ensure economic development. They are also withdrawing from funding the construction of new consulates in Iraq. Government officials cited the importance of all these funds but said its impossible to sustain those promises when USA itself is experiencing bad economy.

But guess what? The annual $3 Billion US Aid to Israel remains intact and they will receive it this year as well as a symbol of "inviolable friendship".

Some congressman questioned why US gave so much money to Pakistan during their severe flooding last year. He concluded it was not unwise because what would we do "if we have flooding ourselves"?

And yet they go on funding Israel, the most modern and technologically advanced nation in the Middle East with very high GDP and per capita income. Yet we won't hear this to be questioned in US Media.

[F6_Turbo]

Originally Posted by mufi_02

And yet they go on funding Israel, the most modern and technologically advanced nation in the Middle East with very high GDP and per capita income. Yet we won't hear this to be questioned in US Media.

Israel depends very heavily on remittances and loans.

-7% unemployment rate
-24% of its population lives below the poverty line

There have been large protests in recent months against the worsening economic situation in the country. Israel is not utopia.

Also you cite the US aid to Israel remaining steady, yet you don't mention that Egypt has the same deal going.

As for Pakistan - good. I wouldn't give Pakistan a penny if it was up to me. Why should I be obligated to help my enemy?

[mufi_02]

This year they might cut funding to Egypt too. What's ironic is that US funded Egypt for the last few decades while it was under authoritarian regime. Now for the first time when it is being democratic, US funding might substantially be reduced.

Israel is still by far the most modern nation with strong economy in the Middle East except the Oil-rich Gulf States. This $3 Billion could be better spent in Somalia, South Sudan and other struggling nations. I want to give it to people who deserves it the most. Israel might have some economic problems but so is United States and Euro-zone countries.

Just give it to Bangladesh. We will all be happy.

[NoName]

Obama wouldn't commit political suicide by going along with it, the Democrats have always enjoyed having a large base of Jewish voters (im surprised they dont go with the Republicans) and the recent stints Obama has been pulling with Netanyahu/Israel and co. he is slowing losing that base, and with an upcoming election faced with a failing economy and rising debt, he's going to need all the votes he need or face a landslide defeat like Carter did.

One also has to ask what will happen once Palestine becomes a country, they have no economy and requires foreign aid constantly, and the Gulf states sure as hell won't be sending aid except in form of weapons to Hamas, which brings us to another point. Palestine has always been used as proxy by the neighboring Arab countries to have a shot at Israel, they don't necessarily care about about the people, but the political image they gain. If someone like Hamas comes in power and does some stupid **** against Israel they will have no reason to hold back and officially declare war on a nation.

Originally Posted by mufi_02
This $3 Billion could be better spent in Somalia, South Sudan and other struggling nations. I want to give it to people who deserves it the most. Israel might have some economic problems but so is United States and Euro-zone countries.

US is not obliged to help such countries, especially when those countries don't even have a functioning, reliable government.

[F6_Turbo]

Declaration of a Bantustan in Palestine
If the PLO's UN statehood bid succeeds, it will lead to increased Israeli control, not real independence.
Haidar Eid Last Modified: 13 Oct 2011 09:48

The "induced euphoria" that characterises discussions within the mainstream media around the upcoming declaration of an independent Palestinian state in September ignores the stark realities on the ground and the warnings of critical commentators. Depicting such a declaration as a "breakthrough", and a "challenge" to the defunct "peace process" and the right-wing government of Israel, serves to obscure Israel's continued denial of Palestinian rights while reinforcing the international community's implicit endorsement of an apartheid state in the Middle East.

The drive for recognition is led by Salam Fayyad, the appointed prime minister of the Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority (PA). It is based on the decision made during the 1970s by the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) to adopt the more flexible programme of a "two-state solution". This programme maintains that the Palestinian question, the essence of the Arab-Israeli conflict, can be resolved with the establishment of an "independent state" in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital. In this programme Palestinian refugees would return to the state of "Palestine" but not to their homes in Israel, which defines itself as "the state of Jews". Yet "independence" does not deal with this issue, nor does it heed calls made by the 1.2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel to transform the struggle into an anti-apartheid movement, since they are treated as third-class citizens.

All this is supposed to be implemented after the withdrawal of Israeli forces from the West Bank and Gaza. Or will it merely be a redeployment of forces as witnessed during the Oslo period? Yet proponents of this strategy claim that independence guarantees that Israel will deal with the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank as one people, and that the Palestinian question can be resolved according to international law, thus satisfying the minimum political and national rights of the Palestinian people.

Forget about the fact that Israel has as many as 573 permanent barriers and checkpoints around the occupied West Bank, as well as an additional 69 "flying" checkpoints; and you might also want to ignore the fact that the existing "Jewish-only" colonies have annexed more than 54 per cent of the West Bank.

At the 1991 Madrid Conference, then Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's "hawkish" government did not even accept the Palestinian "right" to administrative autonomy. However, with the coming of the "dovish" Meretz/Labour government, led by Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres, the PLO leadership escaped into behind-curtains negotiations in Norway. By signing the Oslo Accords, Israel was released of the heavy burden of administering Gaza and the seven crowded cities of the West Bank. The first intifada was ended by an official - and secret - PLO decision without achieving its interim national goals, namely "freedom and independence", and without the consent of the people the organisation purported to represent.

"Once declared, the future 'independent' Palestinian state will occupy less than 20 per cent of historic Palestine."

This same idea of "independence" was once rejected by the PLO, because it did not address the "minimum legitimate rights" of Palestinians and because it is the antithesis of the Palestinian struggle for liberation. What is proposed in place of these rights is a state in name only. In other words, the Palestinians must accept full autonomy on a fraction of their land, and never think of sovereignty or control of borders, water reserves, and most importantly, the return of the refugees. That was the Oslo agreement and it is also the intended "Declaration of Independence". No wonder, then, that Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu makes it clear that he "might agree to a Palestinian state through negotiations".

Nor does this declaration promise to be in accordance with the 1947 UN partition plan, which granted the Palestinians only 47 per cent of historic Palestine even though they comprised over two-thirds of the population. Once declared, the future "independent" Palestinian state will occupy less than 20 per cent of historic Palestine. By creating a Bantustan and calling it a "viable state", Israel will get rid of the burden of 3.5 million Palestinians. The PA will rule over the maximum number of Palestinians on the minimum number of fragments of land - fragments that we can call "The State of Palestine". This "state" will be recognised by dozens of countries - South Africa's infamous Bantustan tribal chiefs must be very envious!

One can only assume that the much talked-about and celebrated "independence" will simply reinforce the same role that the PA played under Oslo. Namely providing policing and security measures designed to disarm the Palestinian resistance groups. These were the first demands made of the Palestinians at Oslo in 1993, Camp David in 2000, Annapolis in 2007 and Washington last year. Meanwhile, within this framework of negotiations and demands, no commitments or obligations are imposed on Israel.

Just as the Oslo Accords signified the end of popular non-violent resistance of the first intifada, this declaration of independence has a similar goal, namely ending the growing international support for the Palestinian cause since Israel's 2008-2009 winter onslaught on Gaza and its attack on the Freedom Flotilla last May.Yet it falls short of providing Palestinians with the minimal protection and security from any future Israeli attacks and atrocities. The invasion and siege of Gaza was a product of Oslo. Before the Oslo Accords were signed Israel never used its full arsenal of F-16s, phosphorous bombs, and DIME weapons to attack refugee camps in the Gaza and the West Bank. Over 1,200 Palestinians were killed from 1987-1993 during the first intifada. Israel eclipsed that number during its three-week invasion in 2009; it managed to brutally kill more than 1,443 in Gaza alone. This does not include the victims of Israel's siege in place since 2006, which has been marked by closures and repeated Israeli attacks before the invasion of Gaza and since.

Ultimately, what this intended "declaration of independence" offers the Palestinian people is a mirage, an "independent homeland" that is a Bantustan-in-disguise. Although it is recognised by so many friendly countries, it stops short of providing Palestinians freedom and liberation. Critical debate - as opposed to one that is biased and demagogic - requires scrutiny of the distortions of history through ideological misrepresentations. What needs to be addressed is an historical human vision of the Palestinian and Jewish questions, a vision that never denies the rights of a people, that guarantees complete equality, and abolishes apartheid - instead of recognising a new Bantustan 17 years after the fall of apartheid in South Africa.

Haidar Eid is an associate professor at Al-Aqsa University in Gaza.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by F6_Turbo

Also you cite the US aid to Israel remaining steady, yet you don't mention that Egypt has the same deal going.

Egypt gets money for the 79 agreement between Begin and Sadat. So basically thats another 2 billion a year the we, the US taxpayer, pay for Israel.

[BD_2015]

This video explains a lot about USA’s love for Israel and Palestine issues.



Caller :I'm married to a "Yemenese" ladyl.Haha

[FaHiMa]

Thailand recognizes Palestinian state!

Thailand said Thursday that it has recognized a Palestinian state, in a move hailed by Palestinian leaders eager to boost their international standing amid a stalemate with Israel...

news.yahoo.com/palestinians-thailand-recognises-state-163950684.html

[F6_Turbo]

What Palestinian state?

[Zunaid]

Originally Posted by F6_Turbo
What Palestinian state?

now now

























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