leadership.....

[proxdj]

So far I have seen suggestion of the following players to lead the team...
Mortaza
Razzak
Aftab
Sakib
a random riksha wala

A successful leader is often the byproduct of the system. For example, you can take Ricky Ponting and have him lead Bangladesh... we would still struggle. On the other hand, you can take an avg player from any team and have him lead Australia, they would still be one of the best if not the best. Ashraful is young, he will make mistakes and adjust to the system. He cannot bat for everyone. Each player has his responsibility to get the job done and if they all fail miserably, its not the captains fault. But the leader takes responsibility for the failure/success.

I am not saying that a leader is not important, rather an avg leader can step into a good situation and shine because of the system. Ashraful seems to be the victim of our poor performances. Too many changes in the system will lead to inconsistency and lack of team chemistry. Let this play out and the selects will look at his overall performance when the time comes and we move on from there.

Now lets kick some arse and take atleast 2 of 3 from Ireland.

[zainab]

Originally Posted by proxdj
So far I have seen suggestion of the following players to lead the team...
Mortaza
Razzak
Aftab
Sakib
a random riksha wala

A successful leader is often the byproduct of the system. For example, you can take Ricky Ponting and have him lead Bangladesh... we would still struggle. On the other hand, you can take an avg player from any team and have him lead Australia, they would still be one of the best if not the best. Ashraful is young, he will make mistakes and adjust to the system. He cannot bat for everyone. Each player has his responsibility to get the job done and if they all fail miserably, its not the captains fault. But the leader takes responsibility for the failure/success.

I am not saying that a leader is not important, rather an avg leader can step into a good situation and shine because of the system. Ashraful seems to be the victim of our poor performances. Too many changes in the system will lead to inconsistency and lack of team chemistry. Let this play out and the selects will look at his overall performance when the time comes and we move on from there.

Now lets kick some arse and take atleast 2 of 3 from Ireland.

Bang on! too much finger pointing atthe moment. i hope everything gets sorted out before the Ireland series star. this is not good fot the cricketers and the fans.

[djnaved]

Originally Posted by proxdj
Ashraful is young, he will make mistakes and adjust to the system.

ash is young! bro, his actual age is close to 27

[proxdj]

Originally Posted by djnaved
ash is young! bro, his actual age is close to 27

A player is in his prime when he is 27-33, so he is just entering his prime plus he is young in terms of leading the team.

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by djnaved
ash is young! bro, his actual age is close to 27

Here we go again ! What's your source BTW, BRO ?! Omniscience, or did you deliver him ?!

Reporting one's correct age IS an issue with many Bangladeshi cricketers, but NOT with Ash IMO. I've known him since 2001 and have no reason to believe he's older than what has been reported.

Immature, impetuous waste of talent, and totally out of sorts of late? YES !

27? NO !





According you, the kid in these pictures is 20 ... sorry to seem so harsh, nothing personal, just annoyed by another such baseless post which serves no good purpose in my mind ...

Proxdj, good to see another sane and positive thread from you. I just hope our favorite baulod can really do something about the hostility with his bat, and sustain it this time for a change ...

[proxdj]

CricInfo says he is 23 and 250 days... Lets say he is 24, most baseball players begin their career around that age. He is still young as a cricketer and captain.... I would give him another 18 months as a captain and see how he does. Then you make a change if necessary where the remaining time will give the team enough time to prepare for 2011 world cup.

[germany]

Originally Posted by proxdj
CricInfo says he is 23 and 250 days... Lets say he is 24, most baseball players begin their career around that age. He is still young as a cricketer and captain.... I would give him another 18 months as a captain and see how he does. Then you make a change if necessary where the remaining time will give the team enough time to prepare for 2011 world cup.

all idiots at bcb, selectors
thats why we are suffering
ash is suffering

it should be aftab, javed, razzak or rafiq

[proxdj]

Originally Posted by germany
all idiots at bcb, selectors
thats why we are suffering
ash is suffering

it should be aftab, javed, razzak or rafiq

Rafiq is no longer part of the ODI team

Javed is not in the best interest of young players

[germany]

Originally Posted by proxdj
Rafiq is no longer part of the ODI team

Javed is not in the best interest of young players

young players --- young players --- all young players
thats why we looooose like crap in the test

JO and Rafiq will be back if selectors ever grow up to their age!

[Fazal]

I think we over simplify when we just consider age as the only factor to say if the player will grow further or not. If age is the only criteria, then yes we can say Ash should continue to grow up to 28/29 years old.

But the reality is different. Why? Because there are factors to consider also that may nullify the age factor. Let’s see what are the other factors”

1. Sometimes when a player start playing too early, their peak point comes earlier than other players who start their career late. There are plenty of examples about that in other sports in the world. There is couple of reasons for that. And one of them is:
Physical and metal exhaustion and wear and tear comes earlier to players who start early. Human body is like a car, it has some mileage that can be used, When you use them , trouble starts

2. the experience part can play both way. Proper training along with experience can make a good foundation to a young player which can go long way building their career. On the other hand, without proper training along with too much unplanned exposure at early can create and solidify bad traits which can be hard to change at later stage of a young player even he is still young.

3. If a player is young he can fix and enhance his physical skills. But if a player's problem is not physical but only mental then only experience can help him. But if he is already experienced (at early age) and have shown little sign to learn from his mistakes, then young age factor may not work for his favor. To explain further:

Player A: Age 23. Excellent (top class) physical talent. Have questionable mental maturity. Started at age 15, already played 100+ international games for 8 years. Showed little sign so far to learn and grow. However shown glimpses of high class performance when everything worked for him. But shown repeated mental lapse again and again. Player A have an average of early 20s.

Player B: Age 26. Have good physical talent. Good maturity for his age. Started at age 24 and played only 12+ international games for 1.5+ years. Showed sign that he is learning but fails mainly due to lack of experience and lack of exposure to the highest competition. Player B have an average of mid 20s.


To me, even player A is still very young, we may already seen his peak. I would say even player B is 3 years older, we haven't seen his peak yet.


Therefore people who thinks and hopes and prays and argues that Ash is still young and therefore his peak performance is yet to come, and then get disappointed and then again hope and pay and argue again he will grow just because he is still relatively young, I would ask them to rethink... because age is not the only factor working here... there are other factors also that dictate if a player can still develop and grow.


Of course there is exception, and if that what you guys (Ash fans) are all expecting, that’s fine... but don't tell us just because he is still young, therefore he will grow further as a player.

[proxdj]

Fazal,

Much respect for well develop argument.

The argument I was making was for his captancy not his individual performance with the bat. He played above avg during NZ tour but struggled during SA series. He is still one of the top 3 batsman in our team.

NBA drafted a few players right out of high school as opposed to college graduate
- Kobe Bryant
- Kevin Garnet
- LeBron James
- Tracy McGrady
- Jermaine Oneil
- Amare Stoudamire
- Dwight Howard

There are others but these guys became superstars. I do not think having a player in the league early affects as much but it has its negative side effects.

My argument was why he should be given more time as a captain before we crucify him. he cannot win the game alone if Zunaed, Tamim, Aftab, Sakib and others do not perform to their expectations. Our top order collapses every game that has subsequent affects on the rest of the lineups.

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by proxdj

My argument was why he should be given more time as a captain before we crucify him. he cannot win the game alone if Zunaed, Tamim, Aftab, Sakib and others do not perform to their expectations. Our top order collapses every game that has subsequent affects on the rest of the lineups.

Sure as a captain he is not given enough time to judge one way or another. But then again, I believe to be a captain, you need to contribute as a player first, what he is not doing right now. He is looking for scape goat after each of his failure, that is not good sign of leadership.

You mentioned couple of names: Zunaed, Tamim, Aftab, Sakib. All except Afab falls inb my "Player B" type player (I gave an example earlier). They are still young and we haven't seen their peak yet (including Aftab who IU think is trying his best to learn from Siddon),

Also I don't agree with your comment, "he (Ash) cannot win the game alone if Zunaed, Tamim, Aftab, Sakib and others do not perform". They may not performed as we wished but they all (Zunaed, Tamim, Aftab, Sakib) performed much more than Ash in these two series. I don't expect Ash to carry the team by himself. As the most experienced player, I just want him to perform his part only, which he is not doing right now. It doesn't matter who else is doing or not, as a captain and the most experienced player, he need to do his part, thats all.

Originally Posted by proxdj

Fazal,

Much respect for well develop argument.

Thanks you Sir for your generous complement. It doesn't come too often now a days, specially bad days like these. Its always pleasure to have meaningful discussion like this where we all are welcomed to share different point of views.

[zainab]

Ash in whites, is how I remember him, and IMO, he looked like 15 yrs old. Who the hell is making up lies in saying that he is 27, he looks like 23 yrs old mpw, there was a qustion about the month of his birth, but I think it is July and not September.

[Tehsin]

I'll use the NBA example proxdj posted here. Yes, NBA (teams) drafted these kids straight out of high school. They are highly talented, etc etc. Where the difference lies between what NBA did and what our Cricket officials have done is this, in case of Bangladesh, one NBA team would have hired all of them AT ONCE and throw them out to play against stronger, mature teams of professionals.

No matter how good these guys are, half of them would have probably sucked so bad that the team would have lost interest in them and would be replaced by newer, 'more' promising teenagers. The rest of them would have struglled as they wouldn't get the opportunity to learn from the big brothers who have been playing professional basketball and help guide kids to grow into their true potential.

If Ash were born in any of the top 6-8 test nations, his stats would have been much healthier because of the system and selection they have in place. Like proxdj said, a successful leader is a byproduct of the system. BKSP does a pretty good job in getting some of these players up to the under 19 level. After that, BCB takes over and that's where it goes south. There's something inherently wrong with our revolving selection policy and it boggles my mind to see how young our team is compared to the likes of Australia or India, etc. The sad part is, BCB is prolly too daft to even realize the harm they are doing by sticking to their failed policies.

[Yasin]

From leadership to ashs age to trying to get an analogy between NBA and Cricket.
This thread seems to have seen it all.

Its not only about captaincy and scoring runs, what I want Ash to do is SET an example for the other players in the team. The example shouldnt be set with a few overs of heroics (followed by a rash shot) in match situations. Instead spend more time in nets. Start with the extra half hour everyday and gradually building up to maybe 2-3 or even 4 hours. Show the other members of the team that, "Look guys, I am working hard. Success will come when it should". Bowl more in the nets so that this part time leggie gets better. From 2-3 overs in match situations he can go on to bowl 6-7 overs IF he starts dedicationg more time to it. Thats leadership. Not only showing others the way, but leading the way.

And after all this when finally INSHALLAH success follows him, it will be time that other members of the team follows Ashraful steps.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Fazal
I think we over simplify when we just consider age as the only factor to say if the player will grow further or not. If age is the only criteria, then yes we can say Ash should continue to grow up to 28/29 years old.

But the reality is different. Why? Because there are factors to consider also that may nullify the age factor. Let’s see what are the other factors”

1. Sometimes when a player start playing too early, their peak point comes earlier than other players who start their career late. There are plenty of examples about that in other sports in the world. There is couple of reasons for that. And one of them is:
Physical and metal exhaustion and wear and tear comes earlier to players who start early. Human body is like a car, it has some mileage that can be used, When you use them , trouble starts

I don't agree with you here, body does not have mileage. Then all the athletes would have died earlier than the 'Nandalals'. It is rather the opposite. Some people might be tiring out mentally because of their sense of fullfilment of desires, complacense due to achievents of all of his visions etc etc. The tiring out is a mental affair.

Originally Posted by Fazal
2. the experience part can play both way. Proper training along with experience can make a good foundation to a young player which can go long way building their career. On the other hand, without proper training along with too much unplanned exposure at early can create and solidify bad traits which can be hard to change at later stage of a young player even he is still young.

Concept is right, but it is always related with age, in the same system. If the older player is a product of the same system, the younger player has always a better chance of improvement against the older

Originally Posted by Fazal
3. If a player is young he can fix and enhance his physical skills. But if a player's problem is not physical but only mental then only experience can help him. But if he is already experienced (at early age) and have shown little sign to learn from his mistakes, then young age factor may not work for his favor. To explain further:

I agree with this; but we must see if that applies to Ash. He has a way of playing, wheather it is right or wrong, he had been successfully doing it. There are many greats who played shots perceved to be wrong way repeatedly, but they were successful and became greats. teldulkar & Joysuriya are examples, even if jS was failing repeatedly, still Srilanka despite having more options than us to replace him, are persisting with him, because of his experience & class. They say form is temporay and class is permanent. Ash did not perform well in last tournament, if we conclude that he is finished, that will be assumption. He was dropped once before and came back with huge performances, without changing the way of his game. You are thinking that he tried to change his game and failed, where as the fact is, he has never tried to change his game rathar he was trying to perfect the same game through practice, so for him, it is not a matter of failure to learn. Gavasker cannot become viv richads or vice versa, that's not learning. Tendulker is expected to learn to be more of Tendulkerer and Ganguly to become more Ganguly through perfecting their game, similarly, while we say learing for Ash, it should mean learning/perfecting his game to be more of Ashraful.

Originally Posted by Fazal
Player A: Age 23. Excellent (top class) physical talent. Have questionable mental maturity. Started at age 15, already played 100+ international games for 8 years. Showed little sign so far to learn and grow. However shown glimpses of high class performance when everything worked for him. But shown repeated mental lapse again and again.

Player B: Age 26. Have good physical talent. Good maturity for his age. Started at age 24 and played only 12+ international games for 1.5+ years. Showed sign that he is learning but fails mainly due to lack of experience and lack of exposure to the highest competition.

The comparison between the two players are unfair. because, player 'A' who has played for 8 years and showing signs of poor form Vs player 'B' who only performed for 1.5 years and showing signs of poor form, Player 'A" is a proven match winner Vs. Player 'B' is assumed to be, Player 'A' has the age & Exp advantage Vs Player 'B' etc etc. If player 'A' Has to be removed, one needs to be sure that he is on pemanent decline. Anything less than a year for player 'A' is 'off form' not a permanent decline of his ability to perform. While if Player 'B' is not performing big in 1.5 years; his problem is not form. He simply doesn't belong to the class and be dumped without wasting time.

Originally Posted by Fazal
To me, even player A is still very young, we may already seen his peak. I would say even player B is 3 years older, we haven't seen his peak yet.

See how illogical it is, you have seen high performance of player 'A' means, he has proven his class and ability. High performance does not speak of the expiry of a player after that, it should be the low performance over a reasonable period of time to conclude that he has crossed his peack and write him off. How can someone say that he has crossed his peak at the age of 23 and still continuing to play? The player 'B' could just be a rotten mango in the basket whom we expect to reach peak (Assumed Standard), but may not be worth it, that's assumption and gambling.

Originally Posted by Fazal
Therefore people who thinks and hopes and prays and argues that Ash is still young and therefore his peak performance is yet to come, and then get disappointed and then again hope and pay and argue again he will grow just because he is still relatively young, I would ask them to rethink... because age is not the only factor working here... there are other factors also that dictate if a player can still develop and grow.

Expectation on 'A' is still based on facts, but the expectation on 'B' is mere assumption. many players have performed bad for one year or more and then did even better than what he did before

Originally Posted by Fazal
Of course there is exception, and if that what you guys (Ash fans) are all expecting, that’s fine... but don't tell us just because he is still young, therefore he will grow further as a player.

I am a fan of Ash, but I am first the fan of my team. If we have a better player who has/can perform better than Ash, lets replace him today. We have seen that; we called in our best young peformers but they could hardly show some promise, except 1 with mediocre performance so far.

We all know, Ash is not performing as we would expect, he needs to do good, we all agree, but it's not usefull to throw away his experience and proven abilities for someone much bellow his standad, just because the incumbent is young. that's when Ash's fans say, Ash is also young, if that is the only justification for the newcomer.

[Sohel]

Ash is not going to become magically good between his late 20s and mid 30s.

His improvements until then need to be both steady and visible. Something all of us, his fans and foes alike, have been longing for but haven't seen much of. It is safe to say he hasn't done his talent justice up to this point for a wide variety of reasons, his compulsive brainfarting being the most obvious one. The ultimate responsibilty for positive and tangible development, of course lies with him.

A 16 YO test centurian on debut aginst Murali and Vaas in their own backyard, and a young guy whose 158* against India in Chittagong is possibly one of the finest, classiest innings played in recent memory, continues to shoot himself at the foot by having his impulses and compulsions take over at the wrong time, and not learning from his mistakes, REPEATEDLY.

Then again, who in our team does and for how long? We have higher expectations when it comes to Ash, and when he fails to deliver again and again, we are naturally more exasperated.

I'll never give up on him. But I don't think he'll be as great as he could be. Guys like Michael Clarke, thanks to his cricketing environment and the impact of that environment on his character as a cricketer, will always be ahead.

That said, I believe that all of our players - IF we keep them together as unit while improving our domestic FC/List A and emphasizing A-Team Cricket to bridge the qualitative gaps that exist between the levels - will become better players from their early 30s Inshallah once that sort of "growth-environment" doesn't allow for slack in any way, shape or form. Too bad we don't have the cosmic fast-forward button to get there right away.

We'll have to wait a couple of decades before getting our own Clarke, Ponting, Anwar, Inzi, Sachin, Sangakkara, Smith, KP or possibly UV and Ross Taylor. But we don't need those guys to belong at this highest level way before then. Infrastructure matters, as does time.

[nzfan]

I actually watched that inning, how tall do you reckon ash is there?

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by nzfan
I actually watched that inning, how tall do you reckon ash is there?

He's 5'4", an inch shorter than my cousin Maya, who's 5'5". We met him later that evening in Chittagong. He was absurdly shy and nerovous around her while trying to keep his cool. Cute stuff ...

[nzfan]

wow 5'4 thats even shorter than my girlfriend, she is 5'6 i am 6'2...

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
I don't agree with you here, body does not have mileage. Then all the athletes would have died earlier than the 'Nandalals'. It is rather the opposite. Sooe people might be tiring out mentally because of his sense of fullfilment of desires, complacense due to achievents of all of his visions etc etc. The tiring out is a mental affair.

People used other sports (for example basletball) in the example. So I am using the same here. There are plenty of examples in Basketball, and Football (American Sports) and Baseball where its well known fact that over use with small life span shorten their career. Byt hey, may be cricket is different, may they don't don't need to use their body the way they use in basketball/football/baseball.

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Concept is right, but it is always related with age, in the same system. If the older player is a product of the same system, the younger player has always a better chance of improvement against the older

Thats where I respectfully disagree that's why it prompted me to write in the first place. It not 'always' there are other factors that makes it more complexed than that.

Originally Posted by BANFAN

See how illogical it is, you have seen high performance of player 'A' means, he has proven his class and ability. High performance does not speak of the expiry of a player after that, it should be the low performance over a reasonable period of time to conclude that he has crossed his peack and write him off. How can someone say that he has crossed his peak at the age of 23 and still continuing to play? The player 'B' could just be a rotten mango in the basket whom we expect to reach peak (Assumed Standard), but may not be worth it, that's assumption and gambling.

I added the average factor also to clarify their performance. Player A may be game winner but he may not be a performer most of the time in his career, that's why his average is still low 20s. On the other hand player B may not be a match winner yet but that does;t mean he is less of a performer than plater B. That hy his average is slightly above player A. Now does it makes sense?

I guess not. Thats ok.

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Expectation on 'A' is still based on facts, but the expectation on 'B' is mere assumption. many players have performed bad for one year or more and then did even better than what he did before

You are right. thats why to me there is no point to hope for improvement in player A. And as Player B is still unknown factor, I can still hope and see and wait and only tater in his career I can re revalue.

Originally Posted by BANFAN
I am a fan of Ash, but I am first the fan of my team. If we have a better player who has/can perform better than Ash, lets replace him today. We have seen that; we called in our best young peformers but they could hardly show some promise, except 1 with mediocre performance so far.

I didn't raised the issue who should be and who shouldn't be in the team. In reality we have both type of player in the team, whether we like it or not. This all came with the issue how much we can expect a player to grow and how much age plays a role.





Any thanks for you comment. Its always goos to see another POV to conter my POV.

[fwullah]

Problem is not with Ashraful - being young and all. Problem is we took away the captaincy role from Habibul Bashar way too early.

Now - we are only facing the consequences of our own actions.

[Omio]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR




According you, the kid in these pictures is 20 ... sorry to seem so harsh, nothing personal, just annoyed by another such baseless post which serves no good purpose in my mind ...

I like this pic, Sohel vai, do u hav anymore pic of tht test match?

[GuruTM]

Looks like every other thread is going to be Ashraful thread these days. There is no hiding. Its crossed the point where it was just annoying, now its getting to a point of blatant stupidity to say the least. And specially some members here started dreaming about Ash. Every other post they make they cannot avoid Ash. Their Ashraful thread has had a natural death, now they go to every thread and start posting Ash this, Ash that. I mean give us a break. Do this in a single thread. Not in every other thread out there. Can we talk about anything other than Ashraful? For fhucs sakes, captaincy is not our main concern at the moment. Its the whole team including Ash losing form at the same time is the real concern. Even Steve Waugh would fail in such circumstances. And Ashraful is just a newbie in this captaincy business. There is no guaratee that he would come good one day, but its too early to judge him right now. He is still a kid, but is the best we have at the moment. Its a fact, but a sad one.

[SS]

Originally Posted by Tehsin
I'll use the NBA example proxdj posted here. Yes, NBA (teams) drafted these kids straight out of high school. They are highly talented, etc etc. Where the difference lies between what NBA did and what our Cricket officials have done is this, in case of Bangladesh, one NBA team would have hired all of them AT ONCE and throw them out to play against stronger, mature teams of professionals.

No matter how good these guys are, half of them would have probably sucked so bad that the team would have lost interest in them and would be replaced by newer, 'more' promising teenagers. The rest of them would have struglled as they wouldn't get the opportunity to learn from the big brothers who have been playing professional basketball and help guide kids to grow into their true potential.

If Ash were born in any of the top 6-8 test nations, his stats would have been much healthier because of the system and selection they have in place. Like proxdj said, a successful leader is a byproduct of the system. BKSP does a pretty good job in getting some of these players up to the under 19 level. After that, BCB takes over and that's where it goes south. There's something inherently wrong with our revolving selection policy and it boggles my mind to see how young our team is compared to the likes of Australia or India, etc. The sad part is, BCB is prolly too daft to even realize the harm they are doing by sticking to their failed policies.

Tehsin bhai you founded BC and I believe it's time to found new BCB. I totally agree with you. But the problem lies somewhere else, the structural inefficiency is causing this failure again and again and will continue to do that. Even we will not progress if we stick with our current development model. I can not believe that in all these years they failed to realize drafting young kids from U19 based on U19 level success, is not the solution. It's not the leadership, it's the failure of our current cricket structure.