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  #1  
Old August 29, 2006, 08:26 PM
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Default "arrogance masquerading as humility"

for a while now, i have been browsing banglacricket.com, pakpassion.net, and indian cricket fever. also looking at present societal and historical trends, gives one an idea of the mindset of these 3 very different subcontinental countries and their "national" mindsets.

this post does, cut to the point, and means to be analytical as well as an expose. if the mods feel, and members protest, feeling that it is inflammatory, then by all means, this thread should be deleted. however, i feel some important things need to be said as well as the fact that i want to see where (and what discussions) this provacative post leads to.

the other day, i was watching Larry King Live on CNN and Bill Maher stated that he disliked religion because it was "arrogance masquerading as humility." at first slightly bridled by that comment, i realized that it was indeed true, mostly true. in fact, i knew it before he made the comment, but as is often the case, a certain event sometimes sheds more light on an issue.

i realized that pretty much every religious group can be characterized as "arrogance masquerading as humilty." my understanding of religion, indeed all religions, is that humility is the ultimate goal.

with that being said, and the fact that all religious groups are more or less culpable and guilty (a fact which shall be proven shortly for the enjoyment of the still incredulous), i will make the assertion that muslims are more arrogant than others, and this is preciesly a source of a great many of the ummah's problems (but thats another story).

of course the media protrays muslims in a worse-than-all-others fashion. but an interesting thing should be noted, if the the percentage of muslims who are radicals, self righteous, or whatever else you call them is the same as the that of other religions (and i believe it is the same), than the level of arrogance is a fair bit more.

not long ago, an indian poster, admitted that he disliked muslims because he thought they were arrogant. many of you will remember the '1 on 100' debates that resulted from that until the mods shut the threads down. and i do not doubt for a second that all or most muslims this particular poster met was arrogant towards him and/or other religions. i am not accepting his narrow-minded bigotry or even condoning it, but lets look at things deeper than we usually feel safe.

no one can deny that there aren't so called arrogant muslims, those that scorn other religious groups. some have even posted on this very site. of course they are not indicative of the bangladeshi or muslim worlds, but with present circumstances it comes as little surprise that several tens of thousands of bad apples tarnish the image of over 1 billion good ones (which, if you are wondering, is less than 1 hundredth of 1 percent).

so let us compare/contrast ourselves with our indian and pakistani counterparts.

both recent and distant history teaches that the religious climate of muslim pakistan and hindu india are vastly intolerant places. quite a bitter is the climate of bangladesh, though that is hardly a utopia. we can pride ourselves on this.

both indian hindus and pakistani muslims seem to overwhelmed with hatred for one another. of course a few bangladeshis would share those sentiments, but more of our countryment have legit grievances and not blind hatred.

to be continued (dinner time now )...
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  #2  
Old August 29, 2006, 08:52 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
quite a bitter is the climate of bangladesh,
Freudian slip?

Yes, we are quite a distance from utopia and it is getting further.
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  #3  
Old August 29, 2006, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
Freudian slip?

Yes, we are quite a distance from utopia and it is getting further.
yea i guess it was a freudian slip...though im grateful it wasnt an embarrassing one, lol

i meant to say "quite a bit better" and ended up hybridyzing "bit" and "better" into "bitter"
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Old August 29, 2006, 11:15 PM
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I'd call most of those people arrogant human beings before characterising them as arrogant "Muslims". Who allows us to decide if someone is or isn't a righteous Muslim?
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Old August 30, 2006, 12:14 AM
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so what did you have for dinner?
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Old August 30, 2006, 12:27 AM
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I'm guessing he had a plate full of wisdom, and a glass of humility
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Old August 30, 2006, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Orpheus
so what did you have for dinner?
daal, bhaat, gorur gosh, and dharosh bhajji
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Old August 30, 2006, 12:59 AM
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hmm ... arrogance is what made Former great Azazil to the most hated Iblis ... and also rage of course, though some rage might seem just, it can also blind you and make you do insane things .
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Old August 30, 2006, 06:34 AM
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waiting for part II of your analysis
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  #10  
Old August 30, 2006, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
both recent and distant history teaches that the religious climate of muslim pakistan and hindu india are vastly intolerant places. quite a bitter is the climate of bangladesh, though that is hardly a utopia. we can pride ourselves on this.

both indian hindus and pakistani muslims seem to overwhelmed with hatred for one another. of course a few bangladeshis would share those sentiments, but more of our countryment have legit grievances and not blind hatred.

to be continued (dinner time now )...

A very well written article indeed .You should definitely consider full time writing .
I completely agree with this prespective and infact would go ahead and would add that "Nationalism" is one its face too.

For example , I have a completely different prespective on the above statement,This could be a mascareted arrogance precived as Nationalism .So could be yours !

I precieve that Both Pakisthan and BD ( to a lesser extent) are a bad place to live for minorities .A quick "google" on the decrease of Hindhu poupation would be an example of the same.

Also both the countries being Islamic republics do not help my preception .


I hope you add this prespective in your next article .Waiting for it
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Old August 30, 2006, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bharat
Also both the countries being Islamic republics do not help my preception .
Get your facts right. Bangladesh is not an Islamic Republic, it is a People's Republic.
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Old August 30, 2006, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bharat
I precieve that Both Pakisthan and BD ( to a lesser extent) are a bad place to live for minorities .A quick "google" on the decrease of Hindhu poupation would be an example of the same.

Also both the countries being Islamic republics do not help my preception .


I hope you add this prespective in your next article .Waiting for it
You seem to have a very biased perception which cannot be supported by evidence. I assume you are grown up, can you recall a single riot involving hindu minority and muslims in Bangladesh in the last 15-20 years?? I don't want to comment on India or Pakistan, but I surely know Bangladesh is a real moderate country and have no problem what so ever involving minority population. You can find some crime against minority but those are a part of overall crime in the society. Not directed ones.
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Old August 30, 2006, 10:55 AM
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yes, when Bangladesh was formed, the main objective was to create a country where people of different religions/tribes would live together in harmony. although very few incidents of violenece against hindus were reported four/five years ago, they were very scattered and uncharacteristic of the general feeling towards minorities. i'm not sure how you conclude that bangladesh would be a bad place for minorities, but it is definitely not the case.

and al's right - this is something that we could be proud of, since we're better at it than our neighbours.
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Old August 30, 2006, 11:04 AM
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I guess these days if you tell a lie 100 times it does become the truth ... but it might also be the mindset of the readers.
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Old August 30, 2006, 12:30 PM
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I was only trying to extend the authors flow of thought .Was just showing through an example how prespectives differ..and put my prespective on the same subject.I do not want to side track the discussion.
Sorry , if that is the case
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Old August 30, 2006, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatebreed
Get your facts right. Bangladesh is not an Islamic Republic, it is a People's Republic.
HB bhai, no need to get aggressive...bangladesh is still a muslim country...and i admit, we have bushels of problems.

yes part II is coming soon...
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Old August 30, 2006, 02:27 PM
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This lunch is too long. Can't wait any longer. Come on AF. Hurry up.
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Old August 30, 2006, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
HB bhai, no need to get aggressive...bangladesh is still a muslim country...and i admit, we have bushels of problems.

yes part II is coming soon...
Sorry for rectifying your admirer.
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Old August 30, 2006, 02:51 PM
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Default Aight, here comes Part II

[an unforeseen benefit of not being able to write the post all in one go is i get some feedback for the posters' comments.]

i do not know, nor do i claim to know, the exact societal situation in either india or pakistan (or even bangladesh for that matter). but i do believe that i have been blessed with a great brain (contrary to what my mother may think ) and can read between the lines quite perceptably.

i am basing my observations on my browsing indian and pakistani internet forums. this has added credibility than simply interviewing ppl in the streets of karachi or mumbai for the reason that internet access amongst indians and pakistanis is a relatively rare thing. being able to post in english means that the poster is at least decently educated and wealthy. perhaps they live in the relatively objective West (UK, US).

i also understand that my analysis is not completely unbiased, and any bias i have is unintentional as well as far less than most other ppl can achieve.

browsing the forums it appears that radicalism is the ideology of the day. anyone who does not embrace it, is automatically labeled as a traitor or treasonous scoundrel.

beggining with the pakistani forum, there was a debate between the posters there an a neo-conservative jew. the debate spanned several hundred posts and the hostility was always present by both sides. however the recent ME events caused animus to reach all time highs and the mod shut the discussion off for a while, only to resume, and die a natural death several days later. of course no change in ideology was observed. the muslim-hating jew remained as such, and the jew-hating pakistanis remained as such. it will be interesting to note that only the moderator and perhaps one or 2 other posters were balanced in the views, the lone jewish poster and the dozens of pakistani posters were quite hateful in regards to each other. this is not to say that neither group lacked valid points, but hatred tends to invalidate even sound logical arguments.

i have not observed much with regards to the pakistanis' views on india and related issued, but would guess that it would be at least equally as intolerant as the jewish dialogues were.

interestingly enough, there was a discussion about the 1971 pakistani civil war and its aftermath.surprisingly, the overwhelming majority of pakistani posters admitted that their mistreatment of the bengalis was the immediate cause of the schism.

i don't know if its a case of sour grapes or not, but most also stated that the whole notion of 2 part pakistan was untenable to begin with for logistical reasons. and cited that even today pakistan has internal problems with groups in the baluchistan province.

at the indian forums, there is an equal amount of hatred and intolerance. however, the situation there is far more interesting.

i have noted, that whether otherwise secular or devout, almost all the active posters at ICF are rabidly anti-muslim. there are often ironies present in their feelings and sentiments.

almost all the posters take pride in india being a secular nation. this is most often used when referring to the islamic republic of pakistan. however, interestingly, recently there has been an issue where muslim indians have refused to sing the vande mataram song in defiance of federal government injuctions. the BBC asserts that the song is a hymn to the hindu goddess durga. some replies to this situation on the ICF forum where "its a hindu country, if they don't want to sing it, they can leave". and this from the same posters who condemn pakistan for not being as secular as india.

although the vast majority of the posters harbor such condradictory sentiments, there is always the one who challenges everything. the ICF does have its token blacksheep, if you will. a poster who claims to be decendent of brahmins yet is not a hindu by conviction. he has been almost unanimously lampooned by being called an apologist of the worst kind.

almost every other thread in the ICF forget cricket section, gets heated and even the members often say that "this thread is headed for disaster." by contrast, the number of threads in BC or PP that get pulled due to overheating is quite fractional.

in conclusion, i will make the following statements which may be offensive to some, but i feel are nonetheless true:

1) on the whole, pakistani and indian posters are equally bigotted disproving the common misconcetion that bigotry is exclusively a muslim trait.

2) the BC forum is much better in this regard.

3) the difference between india's secular, tolerant hindu society and pakistani society is that PAK is a terrible place to live for non-muslim minorities. they have next to no rights and are persecuted. but muslims in india, tho they may have a much better quality of life, come a riot, they won't have their lives for very long.

4) in such cases, bangladesh is a far better place for minority religious groups than either pakistan or india.

5) a factor in bangladesh's continued lack of growth or retarded growth is that internally bangladeshis are much less united than both pakistanis and indians. it seems that pakis and indians as bigotted as they are, understand their national interests and are willing to act accordingly. bangladesh's may have a better human rights record, but when it comes to national interest, personal gain comes second to none.
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Old August 30, 2006, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
A very well written article indeed .You should definitely consider full time writing .
I completely agree with this prespective and infact would go ahead and would add that "Nationalism" is one its face too.
i have thought about it...but at this stage i would have to change all my educational and career goals. i figure i'll finish med school, and then walk into the NY times office and use my (hopefullyl large salary as leverage) get a spot on their op-ed pages

anyways, without a ivy league education, and jounalistic experience, getting a decent job in that field, tho my dream, would be impossible. BC as great as it is, doesnt count as great journalist experience.
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Old August 30, 2006, 03:06 PM
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After reading your article I have modified my signature and added "united and".
Nice read indeed and I totally agree.
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Old August 30, 2006, 03:27 PM
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Good writeup!

Two points:

1. Any -ism or ideology, for that matter, that purports to give salvation of some kind could be labelled as "arrogance masquerading as humility", since its based on the presumption that my -ism or ideology is better than your.

2. What we see or hear about Bangladesh is very different from what Indians and Pakistanis see it as, not least because the only time we tend to get mentioned is when something bad happens, like things blowing up.. But you are right in pointing out the fact that both Pakistanis and Indians are "on message" with respect to what their country stands for. We don't have that internal drum to whose beat we need to march at even for the bigger issues of national interest. Little wonder they look down on us.
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Old August 30, 2006, 08:49 PM
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Good observation Furqan bhai.
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Old August 31, 2006, 01:05 AM
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Interesting observation. I have too many thoughts crossing my mind on this.... but cant seem to put it here coherently. Will get back.

For now quoting the Economist's book review:

Quote:
"Holy Warriors", by Edna Fernandes, another former Delhi-based foreign correspondent, reports on Hindu nationalism and other forms of Indian fundamentalism. It tackles another great Indian paradox, that, despite its spirituality and tolerance, the country has witnessed terrible atrocities committed in the name of religion. But this is not really a paradox at all: "Home to all the major religions, India is also, inevitably, host to virtually every type of religious fanatic."
Ms Fernandes has written an entertaining and insightful thematic travelogue, a tour of Indian religious flashpoints. She takes us from Gujarat, scene of a terrible pogrom of Muslims in 2002, to Amritsar, where the storming of the Sikhs' holiest shrine, the Golden Temple, by government forces in 1984 was followed by the assassination of a prime minister, to Nagaland, where Baptist Christians have been waging one of the world's longest-running secessionist struggles.
Democracy is often portrayed as a handicap in India's drive for economic success and global stature. But besidesoffering a basic human right and dignity, it provides a stability and resilience that help India withstand these internal strains. Diversity, as Mr Luce notes, is India's greatest strength. He lists four "Herculean" challenges facing the country. Three are daunting enough: the urgency of lifting nearly 300m Indians out of absolute poverty; stemming the spread of HIV and AIDS; and preventing the wrecking of the environment. The fourth is protecting India's liberal democratic system, which provides the best hope of dealing with the first three, and is the fundamental reason for optimism. As Mr Luce puts it: "India is not on autopilot to greatness. But it would take an incompetent pilot to crash the plane."

Last edited by ammark; August 31, 2006 at 03:39 AM..
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Old August 31, 2006, 06:36 AM
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Furqan bhai, well done.
May be in terms of religious bigotry, we Bangladeshies are less bigot than our neighbors. But not so much as your write up suggest (this is entirely my opinion). Those bigots we see here less is because of strong moderation. so those people quickly got banned. Also some of the most active members are more or less seculer. also FC is quite dead because vladmamu is not there to incite some hoted discussion on religion. I remember durring his time some of the members were banned after repeated warning. And I think, the thread of da vinchi code has to be locked for some time because it was going on the direction of hatred and bigotry to other religion.
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