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  #1251  
Old July 27, 2007, 02:16 AM
Special 1 Special 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
You are always Special ( excellent ) in comparing apple and orange. Yet again you brought up guantanamo, a totally different issue ( prisoner of war against terrorism ), took place in different place ( isolated army base camp ) and circumstance ( captured in a war field ).

Had it been Mr. Salim was bombing all over the country like JMB ( since we don't have war against terrorism couldn't find better example than JMB ) and captured on the spot, I would have convinced a bit by people like you. Had it been he interrogation in a army camp in a war place like Iraq, Afghanistan, I would have less doubt on your claim. Even more, had it been Mr. Salim a top listed criminal of BD, who killed and terrorized peoples life for nothing, still I would have some sympathy of your kind.

You through garbage all over the place and ask people to clean it up? come on! If you raise question of torture, the burden of proof is yours, that your claim has merit, not mine or any other people.
Seriously dont spew bs all the time. Guantanamo was against for people convicted with terrorists that had nothing to do with warfields. You if want to see apples and oranges you will see it in any analogy.
The funniest thing is i never even drew a direct analogy between what is happening in bangladesh and in the US. All i sed that it happens even in the US, which has a better human rights than bangladesh.
And i dont see the point of ur last sentence as i sed the exact same thing. Maybe i should reply to your posts in japanese or some other language which u comprehend well. Seriously.
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  #1252  
Old July 27, 2007, 02:20 AM
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Please respect each others opinion here... I am trying to play the role of the army...errr... Peace keeper!
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  #1253  
Old July 27, 2007, 02:45 AM
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Alien Alien is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special 1
I have also heard a lot of people saying that they were tortured to confess. It has been a regular practice forever and its even being done in the US (at guantanamo). So, I wouldnt be surprised if these men are being tortured to confess all sorts of things. However, there is also a possibility that all these complaints are politically motivated and the burden of proof is on them.
This isn't the great civilised United States of America. Just coz they torture their people doesn't mean the whole world does it. You heard the confession video (if you haven't do take a look above) and there was absolutely no sign of torture.

Now unless Sheikh Selim comes up with some burn mark or any torture signs it is just another load of rubbish which doesn't cease to come from BAL. Doesn't it surprise you that when you charge CTG it's a nice and fair charge, but hey, you can't charge Bongobondhu's daughter. It's a fabricated and politically motivated.

All I got to say is that thank God that you aren't one of the judges in high court.
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  #1254  
Old July 27, 2007, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket_pagol
Please respect each others opinion here... I am trying to play the role of the army...errr... Peace keeper!
Welcome to war zone my friend.
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  #1255  
Old July 27, 2007, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special 1
All i sed that it happens even in the US, which has a better human rights than bangladesh.


Quote:
And i dont see the point of ur last sentence as i sed the exact same thing. Maybe i should reply to your posts in japanese or some other language which u comprehend well. Seriously.
This forum only allows English and Bangla.
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  #1256  
Old July 27, 2007, 03:20 AM
PoorFan PoorFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Special 1
Seriously dont spew bs all the time. Guantanamo was against for people convicted with terrorists that had nothing to do with warfields. You if want to see apples and oranges you will see it in any analogy.
The funniest thing is i never even drew a direct analogy between what is happening in bangladesh and in the US. All i sed that it happens even in the US, which has a better human rights than bangladesh.
No, Guantanamo has everything to do with warfields as far I know, prisoner from Afghanistan war were sent there for further interrogation on terrorism. Not a BS at all to me, you better check on this more. I knew you will come up with US and better human rights than bangladesh. Then you should know why those prisoners was taken to Guantanamo ( Cuba ) other than any other place in US or other country ( even including Afghan ). Guantanamo and its human right is a totally different topic, which doesn't match with MR. Salim case anyway, period.

If you have to compare,, you should do with same allegation, crime. Not with a war prisoner, nor with terrorist case, simple is that. Even better if you can bring some claim / example of other BD politicians being said tortured under this govt.
Quote:
And i dont see the point of ur last sentence as i sed the exact same thing. Maybe i should reply to your posts in japanese or some other language which u comprehend well. Seriously.
Oh you didn't see the point? Sure you did, I called it 'garbage' who raised the question of 'torture' having no proof or base. May be same as what you said, if you meant by 'on them',, is the questioner of torture in your post. ... a bit of confusion of word perhaps.

Writing in Japanese wont help you any better I guess, though I love to see how special you are in Japanese too.

Last edited by PoorFan; July 27, 2007 at 03:47 AM..
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  #1257  
Old July 27, 2007, 03:26 AM
PoorFan PoorFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket_pagol
Please respect each others opinion here... I am trying to play the role of the army...errr... Peace keeper!
Oh no! Not army again! Why we making army controversial for everything?
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  #1258  
Old July 27, 2007, 03:35 AM
PoorFan PoorFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket_pagol
I thought this is a pretty decent article from DS point-counter section



Source
Thanks, its a nice reading.
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  #1259  
Old July 27, 2007, 08:43 AM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
I was shocked when I read in newspaper even Rehana claimed that Mr. Selim might be given 'electric shock' for this confess.
I thought Sk. Rehana claimed 'electric shock' was given to Selim not you... or was it given to you ?
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  #1260  
Old July 27, 2007, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
Well, I was waiting for the comments, those who questioned the confession was taken by force, troture, heck even by electric shock! I was shocked when I read in newspaper even Rehana claimed that Mr. Selim might be given 'electric shock' for this confess.
You can tell it's a lie. In a country with already plagued by power shortages where thousands of slum dwellers don't have access to electricity, it's illogical to waste electricity on these lowly creatures.
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  #1261  
Old July 27, 2007, 09:17 AM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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Well it’s your choice what you term garbage or not ... and I agree each individual have every right to discount claims that 'torture happened' without any proof. I make my judgment... you do yours... there is no further argument there.

But from my point of view, after geting information from multiple credible source according to my judgment (including the close relative of an Army officer, who was in charge) I have no doubt in my mind that Tarek Zia was tortured (if you consider pushing hot water by his rear is considered torture) as well as his friend Mamun (by other means also).

Regarding Jalil and Selim, there were also claims from few sources that collaborate similar claim (Jalil-revolving chair and Selim - electric shock and other). However I am not as s100% sure as the other two cases. I use my common sense here: after taken to question, suddenly people start speaking the truth that incriminates not himself but his close one…. that doesn’t make sense. Those “goody-goody interrogation” where they suddenly open up their mouth tactics is not new in human history… its happened lot of cases… it happened in hostage cases…it happened in prisoner cases…. And when they are free …. Story changes and the accusation of torture comes up. So just listening to the interrogation itself, I can neither say nor deny that either ‘torture’ was used or not before that. It’s silly to say one way or other. You need other sources to verify that. But based on the symptoms and the approach the army is taking (all other sources), I am kind of disapointed and kind of little scared about their long term master plan that are in the rumor mill for a while now.

No body is denying the evilness of these four people discussed above. And punishing them for their crime is not the issue to me... its micro analysis... however my concern is one step top... in the macro level...I am kind of disappointed these kind of shoddy cases they are bringing and the ways and means they are doing it.... I see long term bigger consequence for these short cut methods... and unfortunately the people will have to suffer further for these mistakes done again and looks like some of us are supporting/ignoring these issues and more focused on individual micro level and not seeing the bigger picture.

Last edited by Fazal; July 27, 2007 at 09:31 AM..
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  #1262  
Old July 27, 2007, 09:43 AM
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cricket_dorshok cricket_dorshok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
Well it’s your choice what you term garbage or not ... and I agree each individual have every right to discount claims that 'torture happened' without any proof. I make my judgment... you do yours... there is no further argument there.

But from my point of view, after geting information from multiple credible source according to my judgment (including the close relative Army officer who was in charge) I have no doubt in my mind that Tarek Zia was tortured (if you consider pushing hot water by his rear is considered torture) as well as his friend Mamun (by other means also).

Regarding Jalil and Selim, there were also claims from few sources that collaborate similar claim (Jalil-revolving chair and Selim - electric shock and other). However I am not as s100% sure as the other two cases. I use my common sense here: after taken to question, suddenly people start speaking the truth that incriminates not himself but his close one…. that doesn’t make sense. Those “goody-goody interrogation” where they suddenly open up their mouth tactics is not new in human history… its happened lot of cases… it happened in hostage cases…it happened in prisoner cases…. And when they are free …. Story changes and the accusation of torture comes up. So just listening to the interrogation itself, I can neither say nor deny that either ‘torture’ was used or not before that. It’s silly to say one way or other. You need other sources to verify that. But based on the symptoms and the approach the army is taking (all other sources), I am kind of disapointed and kind of little scared about their long term master plan that are in the rumor mill for a while now.

No body is denying the evilness of these four people discussed above. And punishing them for their crime is not the issue to me... its micro analysis... however my concern is one step top... in the macro level...I am kind of disappointed these kind of shoddy cases they are bringing and the ways and means they are doing it.... I see long term bigger consequence for these short cut methods... and unfortunately the people will have to suffer further for these mistakes done again and looks like some of us are supporting/ignoring these issues and more focused on individual micro level and not seeing the bigger picture.
It is open secret how information obtained from any detainee. My point is if you think all the above discussed people are guilty for any misdeed and if you feel they should get tried for their misdeed, then could you please suggest some sorts of mechanism by which justice can be delivered without raising any question regarding transparency, human rights, etc. etc.
My understanding about the current activity is that these bunch of thugs will never speak truth without treating them some way (external/internal), this is one point. another point is that CTG is trying to deliver a fraction of justice (compare to their huge misdeed) they deserved which will be enough to keep them out from participating in the election and if they are inside the bar for one/two term, their place will be filled by better alternative and they will be useless.
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  #1263  
Old July 27, 2007, 10:10 AM
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allrounder allrounder is offline
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Why was only interrogation audio released? where is the video?

Anyway we never had a system or administration that was honest,transparent and just in our country. So it is kind of wasting our time and energy to interfere in the war between the old political parties and this new thing. Who cares if someone gets hot water up his rear, as long as the people gets clean water at their homes and rivers. I don't care if some guy is given electric shocks as long as the citizens get electricity without interruption.

Our first concern and objective should be to restore the basic needs of our people: food, home/safety,education and jobs without harassment and extortion and to achieve that we need these people out of our system and have their money back into our banks and make sure the news once cannot do the same as the past ones. So does not matter how it is done.

We are all talking about the treatment of these high profile individuals, what about the thousands of regular people put to jail for petty crimes and in some cases innocent spending time in jail for no reason what so ever?
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  #1264  
Old July 27, 2007, 10:55 AM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket_dorshok
It is open secret how information obtained from any detainee. My point is if you think all the above discussed people are guilty for any misdeed and if you feel they should get tried for their misdeed, then could you please suggest some sorts of mechanism by which justice can be delivered without raising any question regarding transparency, human rights, etc. etc..
Thanks for pointing that out. And I cannot with my own ethical value (whatever it may be) can close my eyes and say its ok to do so... because its not. To me just to say people are guilty in public's eye and therefore 'torture' is ok to them is not going to fly in my logic my friend... sorry... I wish I could agree....because I have no porblem punishing a convicted corrupt..... but I cannot agree these short-cut methods .... specially witnessing these short-cut methods in USA after 9/11....sorry.


As you asked me to suggest some sort of mechanism by by which justice can be delivered without raising any question regarding transparency, human rights, let me point it out first that I am no expert in that aspect.

However I would assume if they had the paper trail of money transfered, that should be the way to go. Nailing down a currupt is not a easy way my friend, it needs dedication, patience, time and hard work to track them down with concrete evidence, there is no short cut, even if that means suspect may go away with the crime at short term. Looks like to me the current government along with their suppeortes are following towards that pitfall...which cannot bring good things in long run in my opinion. There is always a tendency in our society to go for short-cut... and that is killing us... it did in the past... looks like it may continue to do so.

If you don't have respect for law and order and justice... how you enforce law and order... breaking law and order so that you can punish corrupt... doesn't make sense to me.
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  #1265  
Old July 27, 2007, 11:12 AM
PoorFan PoorFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
I thought Sk. Rehana claimed 'electric shock' was given to Selim not you... or was it given to you ?
Man! You never miss any opportunity.
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  #1266  
Old July 27, 2007, 11:18 AM
PoorFan PoorFan is offline
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Fazal, thanks for your interesting post ( #1261), wish I could comment word by word to your post. But nice thing for me is my summer vacation has started from tonight, and I will out of city for couple of days with family, which means may not be able to write here.

If I say something now in few wards ... yes torture in interrogation is nothing new in human history, and so does various rumour side by side. I just cant accept all these torture information as fact, unless its come up from real credible source, that is credible media.

About micro or macro analysis or even bigger picture, I also can say few words other way around, but not today. Rather I shall enjoy reading you and others writing for sometime, please keep it up.
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  #1267  
Old July 27, 2007, 11:21 AM
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allrounder allrounder is offline
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If that is the way to go, then there is no way to win against evil. For what you want, both has to play by the rule of law. Unfortunately that doesn't happen so you will have the wrong doers evade and flee and it will take years to get hold of them. Gandhigiri will not help much in todays world.

I know it will become hard to decide where to draw the line once you break the law, but that is life and how we live on earth. Sometimes you will get ticket for speeding for driving at 80 mph on US highways, sometimes they will not give you ticket and at the same time the law says speed limit 65 mph, wonder how many people drives within that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
Thanks for pointing that out. And I cannot with my own ethical value (whatever it may be) can close my eyes and say its ok to do so... because its not. To me just to say people are guilty in public's eye and therefore 'torture' is ok to them is not going to fly in my logic my friend... sorry... I wish I could agree....because I have no porblem punishing a convicted corrupt..... but I cannot agree these short-cut methods .... specially witnessing these short-cut methods in USA after 9/11....sorry.


As you asked me to suggest some sort of mechanism by by which justice can be delivered without raising any question regarding transparency, human rights, let me point it out first that I am no expert in that aspect.

However I would assume if they had the paper trail of money transfered, that should be the way to go. Nailing down a currupt is not a easy way my friend, it needs dedication, patience, time and hard work to track them down with concrete evidence, there is no short cut, even if that means suspect may go away with the crime at short term. Looks like to me the current government along with their suppeortes are following towards that pitfall...which cannot bring good things in long run in my opinion. There is always a tendency in our society to go for short-cut... and that is killing us... it did in the past... looks like it may continue to do so.

If you don't have respect for law and order and justice... how you enforce law and order... breaking law and order so that you can punish corrupt... doesn't make sense to me.
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  #1268  
Old July 27, 2007, 11:40 AM
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It's not always fair to ask fair treatment for people who unfairly treated the countrymen for years to build up their own wealth.
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  #1269  
Old July 27, 2007, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
Thanks for pointing that out. And I cannot with my own ethical value (whatever it may be) can close my eyes and say its ok to do so... because its not. To me just to say people are guilty in public's eye and therefore 'torture' is ok to them is not going to fly in my logic my friend... sorry... I wish I could agree....because I have no porblem punishing a convicted corrupt..... but I cannot agree these short-cut methods .... specially witnessing these short-cut methods in USA after 9/11....sorry.


As you asked me to suggest some sort of mechanism by by which justice can be delivered without raising any question regarding transparency, human rights, let me point it out first that I am no expert in that aspect.

However I would assume if they had the paper trail of money transfered, that should be the way to go. Nailing down a currupt is not a easy way my friend, it needs dedication, patience, time and hard work to track them down with concrete evidence, there is no short cut, even if that means suspect may go away with the crime at short term. Looks like to me the current government along with their suppeortes are following towards that pitfall...which cannot bring good things in long run in my opinion. There is always a tendency in our society to go for short-cut... and that is killing us... it did in the past... looks like it may continue to do so.

If you don't have respect for law and order and justice... how you enforce law and order... breaking law and order so that you can punish corrupt... doesn't make sense to me.
Fazal, you make some really good points here. You take a moral stand on this and nobody can argue with that, but I think that what works for US does not necessarily work for Bangladesh. Our political and bureaucratic system is full of corruption. Our system is basically in a standstill where nothing works properly. Everybody thinks they can get away by committing a crime. Even if they are caught they can get out on bail and make the trial runs for years!!!

Whereas in US, you will be fined for running a red light. My point is that rules are enforced in US/developed countries, so most people don't even think about breaking law because they know they will be caught. Once, they are caught, justice is served quite quickly. A strong law and order system creates a fear among people. This component of fear is necessary to maintain law and order properly. The question is how do we go about establishing a proper and efficient system in Bangladesh.

I think the CTG is going after the biggest offenders (untouchables) and trying to show that no one can get away by committing corruption. I don't know what interrogation techniques should be allowed, the interrogators need some tools to create pressure on these criminals to extract the truth. As long as these torture techniques are not inhumane , I am OK with it morally. I don't think they are committing inhumane torture similar to Gitmo because we get to see the criminals in court every couple of days.

In terms of torture, I don't support torture. But I have no sympathy for all the politicians who are talking about torture now, because they did not do anything about it when they in power, instead they used it for their purpose.

One more thing, I think the CTG is going really fast with the anti corruption drive because they know that if they don't finish the job then the job will never be done!
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  #1270  
Old July 27, 2007, 01:43 PM
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cricket_dorshok cricket_dorshok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
Thanks for pointing that out. And I cannot with my own ethical value (whatever it may be) can close my eyes and say its ok to do so... because its not. To me just to say people are guilty in public's eye and therefore 'torture' is ok to them is not going to fly in my logic my friend... sorry... I wish I could agree....because I have no porblem punishing a convicted corrupt..... but I cannot agree these short-cut methods .... specially witnessing these short-cut methods in USA after 9/11....sorry.


As you asked me to suggest some sort of mechanism by by which justice can be delivered without raising any question regarding transparency, human rights, let me point it out first that I am no expert in that aspect.

However I would assume if they had the paper trail of money transfered, that should be the way to go. Nailing down a currupt is not a easy way my friend, it needs dedication, patience, time and hard work to track them down with concrete evidence, there is no short cut, even if that means suspect may go away with the crime at short term. Looks like to me the current government along with their suppeortes are following towards that pitfall...which cannot bring good things in long run in my opinion. There is always a tendency in our society to go for short-cut... and that is killing us... it did in the past... looks like it may continue to do so.

If you don't have respect for law and order and justice... how you enforce law and order... breaking law and order so that you can punish corrupt... doesn't make sense to me.
Punishing corrupts (not only corrupt but also millions of misdoing) is the best way to respect of law and CTG is respecting that.

However, I have few things to know:
How do you know that they are not respecting law? How do you be so sure that the way they are obtaining information from them is not according to law? Why don't you think the punishment these bunch of thugs are getting are unlawfully?
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  #1271  
Old July 27, 2007, 01:54 PM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket_dorshok
However, I have few things to know:
How do you know that they are not respecting law? How do you be so sure that the way they are obtaining information from them is not according to law? Why don't you think the punishment these bunch of thugs are getting are unlawfully?
Please take some time and re-read my comments and others above in details (i.e. tjhe progression of this discussion), you will know the answer. And still if you don't get it.. you will not get it. Whats the point wasting both of our time arguing to and forth?

Last edited by Fazal; July 27, 2007 at 02:07 PM..
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  #1272  
Old July 27, 2007, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
Please take some time and re-read my comments and others above in details (i.e. tjhe progression of this discussion), you will know the answer. And still if you don't get it.. you will not get it. Whats the point wasting both of our time arguing to and forth?
Yeah, you have very strong ethical value. You can't support to get information from all the thugs through interrogation. You want goody good behave with all the thugs. You want to gather proof (without asking them) for all the misdeed they did for last 35 years (seems all kept their 'churi-dakati' document in the public library). You want by this time (for gathering their 'churi-dakati' information) they start destroying the country again by hartal, gari-gora, office adalot buring, by killing people setting fire public bus, by "office gami manushke ulongo kore", so on and so on (you know all procedures).

However, you don't feel 150 millions people suffered, suffering for these bunch of thugs, you don't feel for these bunch of thugs country is suffering from corruption, misrule,etc. you don't feel for these bunch of thugs, even a peon can't get appointment without 'ghush'. you don't feel for these of bunch even a small 'mudir dokandar' has to give chada,
so on and so on (you can continue like a 'arobbo rojoni')
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  #1273  
Old July 27, 2007, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket_dorshok
However, you don't feel 150 millions people suffered, suffering for these bunch of thugs, you don't feel for these bunch of thugs country is suffering from corruption, misrule,etc. you don't feel for these bunch of thugs, even a peon can't get appointment without 'ghush'. you don't feel for these of bunch even a small 'mudir dokandar' has to give chada, so on and so on (you can continue like a 'arobbo rojoni')

So from when you are the sole representative of 150 millon people and lecturing me about 150 millions people? You represnt yourself and nothing more nothing less. I do the same.

We may agree with each other's point or disagree, no point to bring out of context topics to divert the discussion here (from where you qouted me). To make the point clear, no one is justifying the wrongdoing of the past elected goverments here, nor anyone is supporting past corruption here. Thats doen't mean we need to close our eyes if we see somting (potentially) wrong with the current gov., plus that also doesn't mean that potentially) wrong will all cancell out all positive done by the current gov.

Again I come here to have a meaningful discussion here not to vent our personal frustration and talk meaning less and out of conmtext discusiion here .If you need some one to vent your frustration, then please find some one else.

Thanks

Last edited by Fazal; July 27, 2007 at 04:24 PM..
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  #1274  
Old July 27, 2007, 11:34 PM
Special 1 Special 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
So from when you are the sole representative of 150 millon people and lecturing me about 150 millions people? You represnt yourself and nothing more nothing less. I do the same.

We may agree with each other's point or disagree, no point to bring out of context topics to divert the discussion here (from where you qouted me). To make the point clear, no one is justifying the wrongdoing of the past elected goverments here, nor anyone is supporting past corruption here. Thats doen't mean we need to close our eyes if we see somting (potentially) wrong with the current gov., plus that also doesn't mean that potentially) wrong will all cancell out all positive done by the current gov.

Again I come here to have a meaningful discussion here not to vent our personal frustration and talk meaning less and out of conmtext discusiion here .If you need some one to vent your frustration, then please find some one else.

Thanks
well sed
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  #1275  
Old July 28, 2007, 01:31 AM
Banglatiger84 Banglatiger84 is offline
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Join Date: March 1, 2003
Posts: 2,703

In Pakistan, Musharraf is meetign with the exiled Benazir to make a deal. This after 7 years of exilign Benazir and promisign never to let her back. Reason? Musharraf wants to stay in power and Benazir still has an organzed support and party in Pakistan.

Ver good chance that the same will happen in Bangladesh after 5 years, where the military will cooperate with Hasina or some other corrupt politician to consolidate their own grab on power
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