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  #1  
Old February 16, 2007, 06:50 AM
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Default Whatmore's performance in the light of comments made by some of the ex-captains

Recently, in expressing their dessappointment regarding team selection, two of the ex-captains Akram & Lipu were criticising the role of Dave Whatmore in BD cricket. ‘When Dav Whatmore came here in 2003, he said his main focus would be to find a combination before the World Cup 2007. Now what we have seen? Three changes from the Zimbabwe tour suggested Bangladesh had never a settled team during his period,’ said Akram. 'Coach failed to make a long-term plan' said by Lipu.

I think Whatmore has done a pretty good job so far. I don't think this much bold & harsh comments is due for him. Before making any criticism one should appreciate his positive role first. After doing that only anyone can make some due criticism if there is any.

What do you think about the performance of Whatmore? How you accept these comments by them two ex-captains? Please feel free to discuss.
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  #2  
Old February 16, 2007, 07:01 AM
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Actually they are not happy about Pilot's exclusion as it appeared that Whatmore was the first to raise this issue in the selection meeting. And what Akram accusing him for not to have a long term plan, I think actually including Mushfiq in place of Pilot proves that Whatmore has long term plan which will serve BD team even beyond WC07. So I think whatmore done pretty decent job so far.
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  #3  
Old February 16, 2007, 07:34 AM
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Look at the following stats and make your own judgment

Pre Dav Whatmore era
Code:

                      P   W   L  T  NR    %  HS  LS  MC  LC BatAv BowAv R/6b C/6b

unfiltered           147  31 114  0   2  21% 301  76 391 105  21.3  37.0 4.04 4.96
filtered              71   3  66  0   2   4% 272  76 347 161  18.9  46.1 3.75 5.27

Dav Whatmore era


Code:

                     P   W   L  T  NR    %  HS  LS  MC  LC BatAv BowAv R/6b C/6b

unfiltered           147  31 114  0   2  21% 301  76 391 105  21.3  37.0 4.04 4.96
filtered              76  28  48  0   0  37% 301  86 391 105  23.8  30.9 4.30 4.67
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  #4  
Old February 16, 2007, 11:36 AM
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Miraz Bhai is determined on justifying the inclusion We get it man! We read the huge number of threads on his average already. Leaving Pilot out was the best thing the selectors did IMO. No one coach can expect to have 0 critics
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  #5  
Old February 16, 2007, 11:41 AM
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Whatmore should not leave us, atleast till 2011 WC.
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  #6  
Old February 16, 2007, 11:52 AM
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Could have done better but the selectors interfered too much. Matha mota gula wanted short-term result instead of long-term. 1 vote against 3 votes is no match. He has to play with cards that was dealt to him.

From Miraz's stat:
Focusing on batting average improvement of 18.9 to 23.8. Not that significant. However, the bowling average from 46.1 to 30.9 is a significant drop which is a great improvement. Add our bowlers regular injuries, the numbers would speak volumes. Runrate improvement from 3.75 to 4.30 is a significant improvement.

Over all he did a good job.
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  #7  
Old February 16, 2007, 12:09 PM
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Dav got some week points. Even though he helped us tremendously i think he done some stuff wrong

Like including young player to early.
Not let any opener set.

Other these two things i think some times he lacks the game plan (this game to game)...

I wish we could have richardmcness as a couch...

He also till now didn't get a specialist batsman or bowler to help our guys...
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  #8  
Old February 16, 2007, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Could have done better but the selectors interfered too much. Matha mota gula wanted short-term result instead of long-term. 1 vote against 3 votes is no match. He has to play with cards that was dealt to him.

From Miraz's stat:
Focusing on batting average improvement of 18.9 to 23.8. Not that significant. However, the bowling average from 46.1 to 30.9 is a significant drop which is a great improvement. Add our bowlers regular injuries, the numbers would speak volumes. Runrate improvement from 3.75 to 4.30 is a significant improvement.

Over all he did a good job.
IMO, batting average improvement of around 5 (23.8 from 18.9) is quite significant as it adds about 30-40 runs to your team total which can be deciding factoir between a win and a loss.

To add to your fact, 4.67 from 5.27 is a significant improvement in runs conceded in every 6 ball. This means we are restricting our more opponents in lower scores which effectively increasing our winning chances.
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  #9  
Old February 16, 2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
IMO, batting average improvement of around 5 (23.8 from 18.9) is quite significant as it adds about 30-40 runs to your team total which can be deciding factoir between a win and a loss.

To add to your fact, 4.67 from 5.27 is a significant improvement in runs conceded in every 6 ball. This means we are restricting our more opponents in lower scores which effectively increasing our winning chances.
I'm sure all those ODIs against crippled Zimbo and Kenya had significant impact on the stats.
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  #10  
Old February 16, 2007, 03:32 PM
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i dont like this coach anymore..he was good before..now hes getting lazy.. and making the captain lazy too....
we neeed a better coach... like engllish coach....

somehow the those ex-cricketers are right about him...

look at the ashraful issue,,, few months before we saw on the news paper that dav doesnt talk to ashraful that much...
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  #11  
Old February 16, 2007, 08:43 PM
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I often found asking myself is Dav Whatmore as good as we think he is. Media makes a big deal about his winning world cup but I always felt that Sri Lanka team was already doing very well before he joined them. At least it was not the case that he took a really bad team and made them win the world cup. If we consider that then we could probably set our expectation right. People like Sobers laid the foundation for Sri lankan create and then Dav Whatmore ripped the benefit.

What is really important for Bangladesh is to keep the local league and age-group efforts running. Before long we will rip benefits from our domestic cricket. Hoping a coach to fly in and do miracle is really unreasonable.

That being said, having a world cup winning coach has been helpful. He made our players more confident that they would have been otherwise. Remember how we beat the expectation during Australia tour (the team was roughly the same but confidence level was higher). If we managed to win the test match against Pakistan, history of our cricket could have been different (we lost about two years after that in lack of confidence). Agreed there is gap in techniques and talent but confidence matters quite a bit.

So overall Whatmore has been a very good influence on our cricket. If luck favored us a bit (If we managed test wins against Pakistan and Australia), we would have been in a totally different ball game by now (even with the same players playing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdcricmad
Recently, in expressing their dessappointment regarding team selection, two of the ex-captains Akram & Lipu were criticising the role of Dave Whatmore in BD cricket. ‘When Dav Whatmore came here in 2003, he said his main focus would be to find a combination before the World Cup 2007. Now what we have seen? Three changes from the Zimbabwe tour suggested Bangladesh had never a settled team during his period,’ said Akram. 'Coach failed to make a long-term plan' said by Lipu.

I think Whatmore has done a pretty good job so far. I don't think this much bold & harsh comments is due for him. Before making any criticism one should appreciate his positive role first. After doing that only anyone can make some due criticism if there is any.

What do you think about the performance of Whatmore? How you accept these comments by them two ex-captains? Please feel free to discuss.
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  #12  
Old February 17, 2007, 01:59 AM
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who are Akram and Lipu? This Abahoni players talk too much. They better zip it.
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  #13  
Old February 17, 2007, 03:40 AM
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Guys, we dont know how inconsistent our BD team is. The greatest contribution of Dav is that he has at last brought consistency in the team, which was terribly missing before he joined us. Now we can expect something from the tigers.
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  #14  
Old February 17, 2007, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shujan
who are Akram and Lipu? This Abahoni players talk too much. They better zip it.
Both of the names you mentioned have more credibility rather than just Abahoni players, you have evey right not to agree with their comments. However being Bangladeshi cricket fans we made more serious comments every day. They never ever adviced to Zip off BC forum.
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  #15  
Old February 18, 2007, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
I'm sure all those ODIs against crippled Zimbo and Kenya had significant impact on the stats.
I was expecting these words from you, SpitF.
And you are right.
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  #16  
Old February 18, 2007, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
I was expecting these words from you, SpitF.
And you are right.
He sure is. For example, look at Aftab, Rajin, and SN's averages when you take out scores against Zim, Ken, and Scot-

Rajin- 19.36
Aftab- 19.96
SN- 22.87

Big differences from their career averages, showing the importance why we need to filter out stats against minnows.
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  #17  
Old February 18, 2007, 12:16 PM
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Dont know about Whatmore, but the selectors should be gone if Bangladesh fail to qualify for 2nd round in World Cup.
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  #18  
Old February 20, 2007, 05:24 PM
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Can you please take away the ODI status of this minows?? Give it a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatcher
He sure is. For example, look at Aftab, Rajin, and SN's averages when you take out scores against Zim, Ken, and Scot-

Rajin- 19.36
Aftab- 19.96
SN- 22.87

Big differences from their career averages, showing the importance why we need to filter out stats against minnows.
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  #19  
Old February 22, 2007, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pial
Both of the names you mentioned have more credibility rather than just Abahoni players, you have evey right not to agree with their comments. However being Bangladeshi cricket fans we made more serious comments every day. They never ever adviced to Zip off BC forum.

I do advice them to zip it. Because they are saying this kinda crap shoot for years which does not make any sense. I do not want to hear the same complain over and over again which does not have any substance.
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  #20  
Old February 22, 2007, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
Look at the following stats and make your own judgment

Pre Dav Whatmore era
Code:

                      P   W   L  T  NR    %  HS  LS  MC  LC BatAv BowAv R/6b C/6b

unfiltered           147  31 114  0   2  21% 301  76 391 105  21.3  37.0 4.04 4.96
filtered              71   3  66  0   2   4% 272  76 347 161  18.9  46.1 3.75 5.27

Dav Whatmore era


Code:

                     P   W   L  T  NR    %  HS  LS  MC  LC BatAv BowAv R/6b C/6b

unfiltered           147  31 114  0   2  21% 301  76 391 105  21.3  37.0 4.04 4.96
filtered              76  28  48  0   0  37% 301  86 391 105  23.8  30.9 4.30 4.67
Miraz: I have to make a comment here. After all, you are floating the same set of numbers in more than one thread. Actually, here's another prime example of how numbers could be misleading.

You know how some of us say, Bashar is the most successful captain in Bangladesh cricket history? Well, you see, our next captain will automatically be more successful than Bashar. The following skipper will be even more successful. That's what happens when you start from almost zero.

As a developing side, our set of data with the next coach will look even more spectacular, compared to Whatmore. Given the speed of our development, this may go on for next ten coaches, until we reach a pateau with our upswing.

Your data here, thus, is irrelevant. Using this sort of argument in Whatmore's favor is really a moot point. Hope you will understand. I would say, horizontal analysis, side-by-side with equal strength teams, within same era, under similar conditions, against opponents of matching strength, would be relavant. You seem to like digging numbers. Why dont you give that a try?

Thanks.
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  #21  
Old February 22, 2007, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
Miraz: I have to make a comment here. After all, you are floating the same set of numbers in more than one thread. Actually, here's another prime example of how numbers could be misleading.
Look at the context before making the comment. I posted these Data in only two threads where the credentials of Dav Whatmore are discussed. I found it quite relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
You know how some of us say, Bashar is the most successful captain in Bangladesh cricket history? Well, you see, our next captain will automatically be more successful than Bashar. The following skipper will be even more successful. That's what happens when you start from almost zero.


As a developing side, our set of data with the next coach will look even more spectacular, compared to Whatmore. Given the speed of our development, this may go on for next ten coaches, until we reach a pateau with our upswing.

Thanks.
Billah bhai, sorry cannot agree with you in some parts. We must give credit wheere it is due. This is one of our generalized weakness (probably built in our sub-continent culture) that we always look for the loop holes with magnifying glass and over look the mammoth successes as it was bound to happen.

Your statement about success is a very gross generalization which is not true. According to you, we started from Zero. This is a vague statement. Now, from when you count the zero? From 1979 when Bangladesh started to play ICC trophy? From 1986 when Bangladesh first played ODI? From 1997 when Bangladesh first qualified for the World Cup Cricket? From 2000, when Bangladesh was awarded test status? Make your zero mark clear, it will be easy for subsequent discussion.

Now, as a generalization, I can take two points as Zero, either 1997 when Bangladesh first qualified for the World Cup or 2000 when Bangladesh was awarded test status.

According to your logic, Bangladesh have done better in each and every year after that. And the subsequent Captains and Coaches were more successful than their predecessors. Is that a truth? It's a blatant lie.

Except world cup 1999 success, Bangladesh has no other success between the period 1997-2000 (pre test status era). After getting the test status from 2000-2003 (pre Dav era) Bangladesh's had no success in either form of the game. According to your logic which should not happen. The jokers from Pakistan (Mohsin Kamal and Ali Zia) and Trevor Chappel should have been much more successful than Gordon Greenidge or Mohindar Amarnath . I think everyone knows the truth.

Success is never guaranteed in this way. You must need proper plan and skill in place to achieve that. Those stats are not table made, those are earned from the field. I am not posting the stats of our previous coaches as that will be waste of time.

You said about reaching plateau. Yeap, it will happen hopefully in future. Now, there is lot of ways of achieving plateau. You can accelerate your speed in reaching that or you can simply wait to get it happened. This is what Whatmore has done, he accelerated the speed of success . With the pace Trevor/Mohsin were progressing (I doubt any progress) it would take zillion years to reach the plateau. After Whatmore, you can see the plateau coming within years.

I don't want comment about McInnes as he never managed senior sides. Successes at age group and senior level in most cases are not translatable. (Bangladesh being the prime example of that)

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
Your data here, thus, is irrelevant. Using this sort of argument in Whatmore's favor is really a moot point. Hope you will understand. I would say, horizontal analysis, side-by-side with equal strength teams, within same era, under similar conditions, against opponents of matching strength, would be relavant. You seem to like digging numbers. Why dont you give that a try?
You can brand it irrelevant, it's your freedom of expression. I find it quite relevant as it clearly shows the sign of progress Bangladesh has made under Whatmore. I appreciate his contribution and fully endorse that he made Bangladesh a competitive side. Even if we say good bye to Dav after this world cup, it will be a tremendous challenge to the new coach to maintain the development graph. If we get a new coach and pass few years under his supervision, I will think about your proposal of making horizontal analysis, side-by-side with equal strength teams, within same era, under similar conditions, against opponents of matching strength. At this point, it is simply irrelevant.

Thanks.
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Last edited by Miraz; February 22, 2007 at 06:02 AM..
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  #22  
Old February 22, 2007, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
The jokers from Pakistan (Mohsin Kamal and Ali Zia)
Title of the year 2007
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  #23  
Old February 27, 2007, 06:40 AM
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interesting reads on alot of these topics....
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  #24  
Old February 27, 2007, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
Look at the context before making the comment. I posted these Data in only two threads where the credentials of Dav Whatmore are discussed. I found it quite relevant.

Billah bhai, sorry cannot agree with you in some parts. We must give credit wheere it is due. This is one of our generalized weakness (probably built in our sub-continent culture) that we always look for the loop holes with magnifying glass and over look the mammoth successes as it was bound to happen.

Your statement about success is a very gross generalization which is not true. According to you, we started from Zero. This is a vague statement. Now, from when you count the zero? From 1979 when Bangladesh started to play ICC trophy? From 1986 when Bangladesh first played ODI? From 1997 when Bangladesh first qualified for the World Cup Cricket? From 2000, when Bangladesh was awarded test status? Make your zero mark clear, it will be easy for subsequent discussion.

Now, as a generalization, I can take two points as Zero, either 1997 when Bangladesh first qualified for the World Cup or 2000 when Bangladesh was awarded test status.

According to your logic, Bangladesh have done better in each and every year after that. And the subsequent Captains and Coaches were more successful than their predecessors. Is that a truth? It's a blatant lie.

Except world cup 1999 success, Bangladesh has no other success between the period 1997-2000 (pre test status era). After getting the test status from 2000-2003 (pre Dav era) Bangladesh's had no success in either form of the game. According to your logic which should not happen. The jokers from Pakistan (Mohsin Kamal and Ali Zia) and Trevor Chappel should have been much more successful than Gordon Greenidge or Mohindar Amarnath . I think everyone knows the truth.

Success is never guaranteed in this way. You must need proper plan and skill in place to achieve that. Those stats are not table made, those are earned from the field. I am not posting the stats of our previous coaches as that will be waste of time.

You said about reaching plateau. Yeap, it will happen hopefully in future. Now, there is lot of ways of achieving plateau. You can accelerate your speed in reaching that or you can simply wait to get it happened. This is what Whatmore has done, he accelerated the speed of success . With the pace Trevor/Mohsin were progressing (I doubt any progress) it would take zillion years to reach the plateau. After Whatmore, you can see the plateau coming within years.

I don't want comment about McInnes as he never managed senior sides. Successes at age group and senior level in most cases are not translatable. (Bangladesh being the prime example of that)

You can brand it irrelevant, it's your freedom of expression. I find it quite relevant as it clearly shows the sign of progress Bangladesh has made under Whatmore. I appreciate his contribution and fully endorse that he made Bangladesh a competitive side. Even if we say good bye to Dav after this world cup, it will be a tremendous challenge to the new coach to maintain the development graph. If we get a new coach and pass few years under his supervision, I will think about your proposal of making horizontal analysis, side-by-side with equal strength teams, within same era, under similar conditions, against opponents of matching strength. At this point, it is simply irrelevant.

Thanks.
Brilliant!
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  #25  
Old February 27, 2007, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sar2005
Can you please take away the ODI status of this minows?? Give it a try.
Does any other team play 24 (+1 today) ODIs in a year against minnows only?
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