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  #1  
Old February 20, 2007, 11:46 AM
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Default No no to weak associates, says Holding

Personally, I think it's ok for associates to play, as long as the ICC can come up with a format where advancing to the second round will be no walk in the park for the test playing teams. With the current format, the top eight teams in the ICC rankings are guaranteed places in the super eight.


Kick out all but the best Associate
Holding slams World Cup minnows
Cricinfo staff
February 20, 2007
Michael Holding has said that the World Cup will be devalued by the number of non-Test playing nations taking part.
Holding, the former West Indies fast bowler turned TV commentator, explained that only the top-ranked Associate country in the world should be allowed to take part as opposed to the top six as is the case now.
"I don't believe the World Cup should go on for as long as it does (almost two months) and that is partly because there are far too many teams in the competition who are not good enough to be there," he told Bermuda's Royal Gazette. "I've argued about this with the ICC for some time. I simply do not believe that if you come fourth in the ICC Trophy that you should be entitled to play in the World Cup.
"It doesn't make sense to me. What is gained by a team playing in the World Cup and getting absolutely hammered? In my opinion it is counter-productive. What I believe should happen is that all the non-Test playing nations should continue to play amongst themselves, to have their own competition where only the top-ranked country goes through to the World Cup.
"I see nothing wrong with giving the smaller teams the odd tour and a few games against the bigger teams from time to time. And I think the ICC should continue to invest in non-Test playing nations to improve their cricket and their infrastructure and things like that. But it's a big jump from that to having six non-Test nations all playing against the cream of the crop. It's not good for cricket."
Holding went on to say that he believed the tournament will be a success despite ongoing problems with stadium construction, soaring hotel prices, visa problems and reports of sluggish ticket sales. "There have been some problems in some aspects of the preparation, but the logistics of organising a World Cup which is spread out over a region made up of many sovereign nations, with different laws, governments and currencies, was always going to be hard.
"We tend to do things at the last minute in the Caribbean - it's part of our culture. Even on the morning of a Test match there's always people hammering in nails somewhere or somebody painting something. It's the same with tickets as well. People in the Caribbean don't buy tickets months in advance, they tend to do it on the day of the game or a couple of days before."


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  #2  
Old February 20, 2007, 11:52 AM
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Well it makes sense to me. I think twelve team world cup would have been much better. I don't see Canada beating England or Scotland beating Australia anytime soon. There will be just too many meaningless game. Let them fight it out themselves and maybe top two teams make it through. Not all of them. I remember those old days when we really had to fight to get a chance to make it to world cup. Why should it be any different now?
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  #3  
Old February 20, 2007, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
he told Bermuda's Royal Gazette

Not a bit diplomatic....

No shame in admitting they are bunch of lazy mofos....it went that low. They take pride in it.
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  #4  
Old February 20, 2007, 11:55 AM
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I think it should be only 12 teams and 6 in a goup...

In that way bd gets more games instead of only 3...
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  #5  
Old February 20, 2007, 11:56 AM
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Holding is crazy.

His logic is full of flaws.

a) Two month long WC is because of the format not for the number of associates. If they make the super eight knockout system the number of games goes down drastically. One can calculate and devise different formats to increase the number of games. Instead of 8 teams playing 6 matches that could have been divided into two groups and played as round robin and then the top two goes to semis. Many combination can devised.

b) As for the minnows getting blown out, Can he not see the recent ODIs between full member countries? One-third of the matches are all blown out. What logic does he have of those games? Australia got blown out by the NZ. Pakis against SA, WI against SL and Eng against Aus and NZ. Its the aggressive nature teams are playing nowadays.

c) The minnows are inspired to get into WC. They taste how it feels. Without globalization Cricket can't capitalize the untapped market. Think of China, Japan Korea being a threat to Australia's supremacy.

It hurts me to see a walking cricket legend have no insight on how to improve the sport.
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Last edited by Tigers_eye; February 20, 2007 at 12:02 PM..
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  #6  
Old February 20, 2007, 11:58 AM
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I totally agree with Holding, the quality of the world cup should not have been deluted so much. I also think the twelve team format was the best one for World cup, that way Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, and top associate countries would get more matches in the tourny and chance of an upset would increase.
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  #7  
Old February 20, 2007, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye;374643[U
c)[/U] The minnows are inspired to get into WC. They taste how it feels. Without globalization Cricket can't capitalize the untapped market. Think of China, Japan Korea being a threat to Australia's supremacy.
If I remember properly, Bermuda toured England last year where they were beaten by rainhill standard clubs. Also, they recently played few matches against club sides in Antigua (or in some other WI country), and they were again beaten in all matches.

As you can see Holding is not opposed to those countries visiting and benefiting from Test countries, but their standard at this point is just too low to participate in a big tourney like WC.

Cases are different for Kenya and Scotland, they are consistently beating their fellow associate countries and do deserve chances in a bigger league.
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  #8  
Old February 20, 2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye

b) As for the minnows getting blown out, Can he not see the recent ODIs between full member countries? One-third of the matches are all blown out. What logic does he have of those games? Australia got blown out by the NZ. Pakis against SA, WI against SL and Eng against Aus and NZ. Its the aggressive nature teams are playing nowadays.
Well the difference between a minnow getting blown out and a test playing country getting blown out is we know who is getting blown out before the minnow game. Any team can getting blown out in a given day but on a minnow vs test playing country, it is always one sided against minnows.
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  #9  
Old February 20, 2007, 12:51 PM
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Why point the finger on Bermuda's old away performance? They have a richer history than we do. They were the bottom ranked team in their group but qualified fair and square. Didn't they win against US by 113 runs? They posted a total of 232 against Zim at Zim very recently. I know BD at times failed to do that even against the same team same venue.

We must endure these blowouts and look at the big picture.

Kenya's run was phenominal last time.
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  #10  
Old February 20, 2007, 12:54 PM
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We complain that the big brothers are not giving us chance. How would we improve?

The minnows have the same complaint. India don't invite us, you think from free will they will invite bermuda?? If not for ICC WC bermuda wouldn't have a chance to face the bullies.
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Old February 20, 2007, 12:55 PM
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Im just happy our country's name's not in there anymore....And I dont agree with Holding. For starters, i would then have to agree with all the people who proposed a two tier system (with Bangladesh in the second tier). More importantly, this tournament encourages the globalisation of World Cricket, and thats of utmost importance to me right now. Id go as far as to say its my highest priority. Higher than BD doing well and going up the ranks.
However, I agree with some of his points. Namely, the devaluation of the tournament. Although I think he should have thought about it a bit further. If he finds it to be that much of a problem (which i dont btw), let the associates play in their own group. Put them all in group one or something, the top two go to the next round.
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  #12  
Old February 20, 2007, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sadi
Well the difference between a minnow getting blown out and a test playing country getting blown out is we know who is getting blown out before the minnow game. Any team can getting blown out in a given day but on a minnow vs test playing country, it is always one sided against minnows.
I take as blown out matches are bad and unattractive. Doesn't matter who is on the receiving end. At least it would allow big guns to rack up stats and not make useless complaints like Shane Warne on Murali's wickets.
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  #13  
Old February 20, 2007, 12:59 PM
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It's difficult to agree with Holding as a Tiger fan. He has got points in his arguments but again, the same arguments were used by David Hookes during our Australia tour.

I'd like a format like the champions trophy where the associates will play for two spots of the main round.

They can taste the World Cup (although preliminary round) at the same time best sides only feature in the main tournament.

12 teams divided into two groups.
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  #14  
Old February 20, 2007, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Why point the finger on Bermuda's old away performance? They have a richer history than we do. They were the bottom ranked team in their group but qualified fair and square. Didn't they win against US by 113 runs? They posted a total of 232 against Zim at Zim very recently. I know BD at times failed to do that even against the same team same venue.
Errr, Tigers_eye, I am not the one who is pointing at old history, it is you. Bermuda got beaten by West Indian clubs last month.

Can't recall Bermuda visiting Zimbabwe in recent times, are you talking about Zim-Can-Ber tri-series in West Indies, that took place last year ? As for us, did not we beat Zimbabwe by almost 150 runs in a neutral venue last year ?
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  #15  
Old February 20, 2007, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
It's difficult to agree with Holding as a Tiger fan. He has got points in his arguments but again, the same arguments were used by David Hookes during our Australia tour.
Not quite so, if you are the best of the rest and miles ahead of countries below you, you do deserve to play better teams. Which is why I have no objection against Kenya and Scotland (neither does Holding).

Quote:
I'd like a format like the champions trophy where the associates will play for two spots of the main round.
My point exactly, and according to recent World Cricket League in Kenya, Kenya and Scotland are those two teams.
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  #16  
Old February 20, 2007, 01:10 PM
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On an another note:
The under 19 WC tournament allows team like Nepal to shoot down the hunters. If we don't let them have a chance in the next level the cricket itself will die out in those countries. Competing against Football, Basketball and other sports which is much better organized and financed.

If Bd were an associate team I would see 100% shunning of Holding in this site for sure.
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Old February 20, 2007, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatcher
My point exactly, and according to recent World Cricket League in Kenya, Kenya and Scotland are those two teams.
Difficult to judge based on world cricket league.

Ireland and Canada are playing the final of the ICC Intercontinental cup which is much more rigorous tournament.
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  #18  
Old February 20, 2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatcher
Not quite so, if you are the best of the rest and miles ahead of countries below you, you do deserve to play better teams. Which is why I have no objection against Kenya and Scotland (neither does Holding).
However Mr. Holding is suggesting that a last time semi-finalist also stays out of the WC. Only Scotland should participate.
This is from BBC:

"Holding, part of the fearsome West Indies pace cortege of the 1980s, believes only the top-ranked associate country in the world (currently Scotland) should be allowed to take part."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/6379285.stm
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Old February 20, 2007, 01:22 PM
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Some of us like what Holding is saying now. But a few years back, we did not like this type of analysis against us.

If it wasn't for the Test Status, I don't think our cricket would have advanced so quickly. Look at Bermuda, Kenya and others. We used to play and regularly lose to these guys in ICC. Now, we have left them in the dust. Specially in terms of infrastructure, emerging cricketer pool and sponsorships.

Without help from the big daddy, cricket will always remain confined in an exclusive club. Playing at these levels will give these countries a much-needed boost, just like it did for us...
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Old February 20, 2007, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
However Mr. Holding is suggesting that a last time semi-finalist also stays out of the WC. Only Scotland should participate.
This is from BBC:

"Holding, part of the fearsome West Indies pace cortege of the 1980s, believes only the top-ranked associate country in the world (currently Scotland) should be allowed to take part."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/6379285.stm
Scotland is top ranked among associate because Kenya already has a position in main ODI ranking. If Holding has nothing against Scotland he should have nothing against Kenya. At least, there is nothing here that said Holding spoke against Kenya, may be he just forgot that Kenya was recently demoted as an associate country.
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Old February 20, 2007, 02:06 PM
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By those statements Holding proves that he doesn't know much of world cup history and the format of this edition.
The only problem with the minnows is that most of them are little countries (Holland, Scotland, Irealand... let alone Bermuda) that could never reach the standard of the test teams. If the ICC really worked on promoting the game in the whole world than we could have a real threat by the associates.
About the format: what is taking this wc to last so much is the quite sense-less super-8 not the presence of 6 associates.
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Old February 20, 2007, 02:20 PM
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Despite all the arguments for and against Holding's comments, I guess everybody will agree that allowing the minnows play in the WC is 100% consistent with a very important goal of ICC these days, "Globalization of Cricket", at the same time it is also ensuring extra income from sale of media rights to more number of countries. I don't see the harm in allowing more countries to participate.

Maybe ICC can use a format like the U19 WC where there are two tiers of champions and this would allow emerging countries to have an intermediary goal, like we could target a more achievable "Plate" championship for WC 2007.
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Old February 20, 2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWatcher
I totally agree with Holding, the quality of the world cup should not have been deluted so much. I also think the twelve team format was the best one for World cup, that way Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, and top associate countries would get more matches in the tourny and chance of an upset would increase.
by holding's and your logic, bangladesh shouldn't be there either.

and as of a few weeks ago, england shouldn't have been there

west indies and pak are too unpredicatble so take them out,

SL and india can't win overseas so take them away.

NZ, uggg...

so WC 07 should just be a match between OZ and RSA...
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  #24  
Old February 20, 2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
by holding's and your logic, bangladesh shouldn't be there either.

and as of a few weeks ago, england shouldn't have been there

west indies and pak are too unpredicatble so take them out,

SL and india can't win overseas so take them away.

NZ, uggg...

so WC 07 should just be a match between OZ and RSA...
NZ whitewashed AUS ,so RSA already champion.let's go home ,no need of worldcup.your logic just sucks
(if it wa s sarcastic , doesn't look so)
why NZ is UGGGG
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  #25  
Old February 20, 2007, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
Some of us like what Holding is saying now. But a few years back, we did not like this type of analysis against us.

If it wasn't for the Test Status, I don't think our cricket would have advanced so quickly. Look at Bermuda, Kenya and others. We used to play and regularly lose to these guys in ICC. Now, we have left them in the dust. Specially in terms of infrastructure, emerging cricketer pool and sponsorships.

Without help from the big daddy, cricket will always remain confined in an exclusive club. Playing at these levels will give these countries a much-needed boost, just like it did for us...
Billah, nobody gave us a hoot when we were a team of Bermuda and Canada's standard. If ICC allowed so many associate countries to play in the WC back in the time, we would play in WC in Australia, 1992.

Also, even before 1997, our cricket infrastructure and talent base were far better than those are now in any associate country (may be except for Kenya). If you are trying to relate our past with those countries, you are fooling yourself.

Nobody is asking big daddy to stop giving big bucks to minnows either. I have no problem seeing Bangladesh hosting Bermuda for an ODI or two. But it is just too comical to see below club standard teams like Canada and Bermuda playing in World Cup. ICC has pushed the boundary too far in the name of development.
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