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  #1  
Old February 20, 2007, 03:44 PM
pilot fan pilot fan is offline
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Default Dav Whatmore

Do you think that Dav has the same enthuisam for the job as when he started, he must be fed up with our sub standard performances against the major nations and has seen so much bangladesh talent wasted

i feel that he will move on after the world cup and this will be the worst thing ever to happen to bangladesh cricket and the only replacement who i feel will have the abilty to put us up there with the best is Bob Willmor

so i am starting the bob willmor for bangladesh campaign
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  #2  
Old February 20, 2007, 03:51 PM
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Haire Pilot fan, you say that you're starting the campaign for Bob Willmor, and you opted to name the thread as "Dav Whatmore". Or is it a propagandist campaign?

Anyway, I don't think Dav is doing anytime soon. He has to notify the management with some time in hand. He can't just quit all of a sudden...given that Bangladesh is playing big teams after the WC (for the first time in ages). And regardless of whatever you say, I think Dav has done his job well so far.
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  #3  
Old February 20, 2007, 04:18 PM
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I think that we should have a coach who has won a no-bull price and been cleansed by our National Anti-Corruption Bureau.
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  #4  
Old February 20, 2007, 04:42 PM
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Dav W or Bob W?
Well Bob W will not coach after Paki. He is old and frankly fedup.
Aus has already announced their coach. No chance for Dav to move there.

Now if he can win against India in the WC he will be coaching India against us.
In that case we would need a coach. I'd go for S. Waugh.
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  #5  
Old February 20, 2007, 04:42 PM
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I did not get what's wrong there.
I work in a multinational company which is one of the world's largest shipping company in the industry. I don't find the same encouragement/motivation what I had at the begining of the job and that's one of the reason why management keeps on giving me new responsibilities continiously. If the project is at maturity stage (or near), I don't find interest anymore in that and look for new challenges. That's what my PI (predective Index) is.

I believe Dev has brought BD upto a standard and now it's completely on to the players/individuals of the team to maintain that an take it to the peak. What else you expect him to do? I don't find anything wrong if he looks for his new career somewhere else after this worldcup.

And then, if we need to look for a new coach, I would prefer to get someone from SA (as we already had some Aussie flafour), let it be old BW or someone else.
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  #6  
Old February 20, 2007, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabir
Anyway, I don't think Dav is doing anytime soon. He has to notify the management with some time in hand.
Anyway, I don't think Dav is doing anytime soon. He has to get a job with salary compared to current one and prestige compared to current one (national coach of a test playing nation).

Is it that easy. Do you think he's with us loving Bangladesh or our 21st Februrary Mother language day. After living so long he didn't learn bangla which is very uncommon for a person originated from subcontinent region. He was angry when he saw media people at the airport talking to our players. He is with us as he didn't get anything better and he'll continue untill he gets anything better.
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  #7  
Old February 20, 2007, 05:01 PM
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We recently discussed about Dav Whatmore in this thread

Posting same post here, have a look and decide, IMO, Dav should stay for another three years although lot will depend on WC performance.

Look at the following stats and make your own judgment

Pre Dav Whatmore era


Code:
                       P   W   L  T  NR    %  HS  LS  MC  LC BatAv BowAv R/6b C/6b

unfiltered           147  31 114  0   2  21% 301  76 391 105  21.3  37.0 4.04 4.96
filtered              71   3  66  0   2   4% 272  76 347 161  18.9  46.1 3.75 5.27


Dav Whatmore era



Code:
                      P   W   L  T  NR    %  HS  LS  MC  LC BatAv BowAv R/6b C/6b

unfiltered           147  31 114  0   2  21% 301  76 391 105  21.3  37.0 4.04 4.96
filtered              76  28  48  0   0  37% 301  86 391 105  23.8  30.9 4.30 4.67



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  #8  
Old February 20, 2007, 05:30 PM
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Looking into the stat from Miraz's post, it's for sure we got the most from Dav among all coaches so far we had in our short cricketing history. I don't find if there is anything to blame this poor guy. But the million dollar question is if we want to stick with him for further or we should look for a new coach for injecting new tonic to BD cricket.
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  #9  
Old February 20, 2007, 06:14 PM
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If whatmore leaves we should get Richard McInnes. However, i do want Whatmore to stay.
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  #10  
Old February 20, 2007, 06:18 PM
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Whatmore's done his job with the team but I'm afraid this is as far as he's able to take us. New blood is required for the next stage. Not really sure if Wolmer is the right person for the job.
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  #11  
Old February 20, 2007, 07:19 PM
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I think we need a fiery coach, someone who is emotionally charged up yet stable, someone who is inspirational and can instill a greater passion in our players (esp the up and coming new ones). However I do not know if there is someone like that out there right now. Maybe a younger guy, maybe it is time to move out of the old father figure like coach ideology.

Dav obviously has done a great job, and if he wants to stay for the right reasons BCB should and probably would retain him. But I think it is important to find out whether he truly wants to continue coaching here or is he just using this job as a temporary station to get to another job.
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  #12  
Old February 20, 2007, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricket_pagol
If whatmore leaves we should get Richard McInnes. However, i do want Whatmore to stay.
SUmmed it up nicely!! :thumbs: Mcinnes did a very good job shaping up the youngsters for national side... many don't realize/appreciate that.
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  #13  
Old February 20, 2007, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Dav W or Bob W?
Well Bob W will not coach after Paki. He is old and frankly fedup.
Aus has already announced their coach. No chance for Dav to move there.

Now if he can win against India in the WC he will be coaching India against us.
In that case we would need a coach. I'd go for S. Waugh.
Man the way you are saying it seems the moment we call S Waugh he is ready to become our coach. I think Whatmore can still continue after the World Cup.
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Old February 20, 2007, 10:03 PM
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Dav Whatmore can't be with us forever as sooner or later he will have to go. If he goes, my first choice will be Buchanan as he is soon to retire from australian team. We also need Wasim as the bowling and steve waugh as the batting coach. But the question is, are we good enough to learn from the best? Our batsman dont learn from their mistake as they tend to do the same mistake again and again. Its been a long 8 years since we got our odi status and still everyone considers a upset when we beat a test playing nation. I think we should hire a bosta pocha Indian or paki coach and learn to be with it.

Last edited by Thunder; February 20, 2007 at 10:12 PM..
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  #15  
Old February 20, 2007, 10:12 PM
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bd needs new spirits. probably a batting coach from SA. look how they chased 400+ and blushed the aussies. a bowling coach from sri lanka.
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  #16  
Old February 21, 2007, 12:09 AM
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As far as performance is concerned, I am still not convinced that we need better coach than him. So.. i dont see any reason why would I look for a newer one. If I had to choose one, then, it has to Richard Mccinse (out ex-uder 19 coach). He is perfect replacement for Bangladesh.
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Old February 21, 2007, 12:38 AM
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We made solid progress in batting during Gordon Grinidge era. That was a generation change in our cricket.

When Whatmore came in, we had two major problems:

1. Poor Batting
2. Fighting mindframe.

Both problems plague our cricket to this day. Players still have not learned to steady a collapse and to rebuild an innings. Specifically, the Dav Whatmore boys show this trend more.

Dav learned to play our system. He keeps BCB officials happy. He shuns the press whenever he can get away with it. He even secludes himself from our players in tours.

He openly searched for jobs while on tour. He insulted our national pride by doing so in England and in India. It's been quiet since all the top position has been filled for the time being.

Dav got a new lease on life by using the McInnes boys. These guys have simply been trained by a better coach. McInnes has the uncanny ability to pick talent. Without this batch of players, Dav would have lost his job by now. Just think of our team without these new young guys, you will realize the difference.

Dav had been blamed for dumping experience players to bank on the young and inexperienced. This was one point of contention between him and Sri Lanka. Dav did the same thing with our team in the last world cup; the strategy backfired badly. There are plenty of people that believe that we discarded the likes of Aminul too quickly. Later Dav over compensated and kept the likes of Alok for too long.

We had to seriously think of bringing a batting coach, since that has remained a problem. A good amount of the progress that we saw under Dav was inevitable, due to a large cricketer pool, improving infrastructure, and a general increase of interest in cricket.

I think that Dav's era has run it's course. It is time for a change. I would not be surprised if we don't renew his contract. Unless, of course, our team does some fantastic things in the world cup. If that happens, our BCB officials will take the easy route, and will keep him on.

It is really time for a coaching change, in my opinion.
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  #18  
Old February 21, 2007, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
We made solid progress in batting during Gordon Grinidge era. That was a generation change in our cricket.

When Whatmore came in, we had two major problems:

1. Poor Batting
2. Fighting mindframe.
Is it? Miraz's stat shows we improved our batting. Even if you say this is inflated by playing C team of Zimbabue, still I think batting improved, though may not be as high as we wanted. Under Dav we chased 250 againest aussi, scored more than 250 in a chase of 300 odd.
Regarding the second point, I do not know in which world living. How many of us believe we would won the 3rd ODI of this tour in Zimb pre Whatmore. Moreover the win againest SL and India was after we lost the first match. Even againest the Aussi in ctg we gave a good fight. we did not surrender after we folded in 190 and opposition are 80 odd without loss in 10 overs. Last 2 matches in Kenya also can be taken as an evidence that he instilled the fighting quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
Both problems plague our cricket to this day. Players still have not learned to steady a collapse and to rebuild an innings. Specifically, the Dav Whatmore boys show this trend more.
I agree to some extent. But there is the trend that time is changing. The last 2 matches in Kenya is example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
Dav learned to play our system. He keeps BCB officials happy. He shuns the press whenever he can get away with it. He even secludes himself from our players in tours.
The way our media is reporting things, even if I was the coach I would avoid them. The last sentence is always come into media report with some unnamed source. I would rather say, the source is media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
He openly searched for jobs while on tour. He insulted our national pride by doing so in England and in India. It's been quiet since all the top position has been filled for the time being.
Can you tell me you never looked for better opportunity even if you are in official trip. This is more BCB's fault that they did not censure him. Your company must have punish you if they come to know that you are looking for job. If they dont, that means your company consider you an asset and give you a free pass. You can do what ever you like. Dav is simply doing that. I do not like it but he is not doing anything illegal. Unethical yes, illegal no

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
Dav got a new lease on life by using the McInnes boys. These guys have simply been trained by a better coach. McInnes has the uncanny ability to pick talent. Without this batch of players, Dav would have lost his job by now. Just think of our team without these new young guys, you will realize the difference.
I have no doubt McInnes has an eye for pick talent. But SN, Rajjak, Aftab, Rajib none are product of McInnes. In fact SN was dropped McInnes in U19. They are handpicked by Faruq and Co if not Dav. Only two of McInnes boys are in team - Sakib and Mushy. I think you belive Mushy is not ready yet to fill the boot of KM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
Dav had been blamed for dumping experience players to bank on the young and inexperienced. This was one point of contention between him and Sri Lanka. Dav did the same thing with our team in the last world cup; the strategy backfired badly. There are plenty of people that believe that we discarded the likes of Aminul too quickly. Later Dav over compensated and kept the likes of Alok for too long.
You get your history wrong. Dav was hired after the nightmare of 2003. The two jokers from Pakistan was at the helm in WC2003. By the time Dave came Aminul went to Australia. Akram might get raw treatment. But your last sentence is true but not compensation but in the name of continuity. He carried Alok, KM too long and still carrying proven underperformer Ash for too long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
We had to seriously think of bringing a batting coach, since that has remained a problem. A good amount of the progress that we saw under Dav was inevitable, due to a large cricketer pool, improving infrastructure, and a general increase of interest in cricket.
I think it has nothing to do with Dav. It is BCB's responsibilty to bring batting or bowling coach. Did Dav ask might be the question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
I think that Dav's era has run it's course. It is time for a change. I would not be surprised if we don't renew his contract. Unless, of course, our team does some fantastic things in the world cup. If that happens, our BCB officials will take the easy route, and will keep him on.

It is really time for a coaching change, in my opinion.
I understand fresh air works but only in short term. You need to give Coach long term to bring success and sucking out the bad blood. I would try to bring analogy here. No doubt the class of 1992 is one of the greatest batch of footballer Man U ever produced. They bring back the glory days of ManU. But Sir Fergy worked 5 years with them before they tasted success. Same goes for Arsenal under Wenger.
I do not think bringing McInnes or Bob Wo or X,Y and Z could bring any drastic change of our playing style or fortune.
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  #19  
Old February 21, 2007, 04:56 AM
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Good post thebest, missing such analytical posts from you for long time.

Too busy with work?
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  #20  
Old February 21, 2007, 06:31 AM
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Richard McInnes is the man. He used to come here in the forum with the name - observer. Long time no see!!
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  #21  
Old February 21, 2007, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cricketboy
Man the way you are saying it seems the moment we call S Waugh he is ready to become our coach. I think Whatmore can still continue after the World Cup.
You missed two crucial points of my post.

1. If we beat India in the WC. Many things will happen from there on. India most likely will be ousted from the tourney. Chapple will get fired. Job openning for Dav in the Indian tent. Most likely he will move on (better money, better opportunity, and the contract allows that - I wouldn't blame him for that). And then it don't become if he "can" but it becomes if he "will".

2. Only then we will need a coach. Otherwise, I would like to see Dav to continue. S Waugh is my hero and he likes minnows. Wheather he would have time for us now is a different issue. He is doing something with the Australian olympic team. That was my suggesstion. The biggest asset Steve has is the mental strength which we lack of. He has been there done that for quite a long time. He had motivated his troops and got the best out of them. May be, just may be that could help SN AKA Mr. Future Bangladesh.
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  #22  
Old February 21, 2007, 10:36 AM
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i think Billah summed up very well. Look at the way our Under-19 team performed against England and even in Australia udner McInnes. Look at the fighting spirit in which we won 1997 ICC Trophy needing 17 from the last over.

I have been consistently voicing that Dav Whatmore should go, and that too, whether we go to second round of WC or not.

Thanks

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  #23  
Old February 21, 2007, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebest
Is it? Miraz's stat shows we improved our batting. Even if you say this is inflated by playing C team of Zimbabue, still I think batting improved, though may not be as high as we wanted. Under Dav we chased 250 againest aussi, scored more than 250 in a chase of 300 odd.
You are right, the key word is "improving". It has not 'improved' to the point where it can be called Dav Whatmore's success. For a new, improving team, we should score 250+ or chase 300. That is no miracle, that is standard. Aside from those sporadic events cited here by you, what do you thing our main problem has been?

Batting.

Quote:
Regarding the second point, I do not know in which world living. How many of us believe we would won the 3rd ODI of this tour in Zimb pre Whatmore. Moreover the win againest SL and India was after we lost the first match. Even againest the Aussi in ctg we gave a good fight. we did not surrender after we folded in 190 and opposition are 80 odd without loss in 10 overs. Last 2 matches in Kenya also can be taken as an evidence that he instilled the fighting quality.
Actually, the 3rd match against Zimbabwe is a good example where our middle order (the most experienced of the batsmen) failed to stop a collapse. This has exactly been the problem. Thank you for pointing that out.

Not much to say about the matches against SL and India. When the team works as a team, you should expect a good show. Our performance against Australia was great at times. However, the results were, 0-2 and 0-3. It's the Aussies that held their nerves under pressure (first test, for example) and took the wins. I hope you remember our second innings in the first test. Even in a commanding position, Bashar conceded the match in the 3rd day. Things have gone from bad to worse for us, while Australia responded better and better to our condition. That comes from mental toughness.

Quote:
I agree to some extent. But there is the trend that time is changing. The last 2 matches in Kenya is example.
Six years at the top level, of course things will change. Matches against Kenya or Zimbabwe are not good examples of the positive change.

Quote:
The way our media is reporting things, even if I was the coach I would avoid them. The last sentence is always come into media report with some unnamed source. I would rather say, the source is media.
I understand you may have the same work ethics as Dav Whatmore. However, as our national coach, Dav has contractual obligations for facing our media. I have spokne to Dav Whatmore personally. I have talked to other sports journalists and close friends of Dav personally also. May be you know something that I don't. However, I think you should find out how Dav treated our media and how he even stayed away from his own team in Zimbabwe in the previous tour (the one before this last one).

Quote:
Can you tell me you never looked for better opportunity even if you are in official trip. This is more BCB's fault that they did not censure him. Your company must have punish you if they come to know that you are looking for job. If they dont, that means your company consider you an asset and give you a free pass. You can do what ever you like. Dav is simply doing that. I do not like it but he is not doing anything illegal. Unethical yes, illegal no
During our England tour, Dav was negotiating possible coaching offer when the team needed him in the field. In India, he was openly and aggressively seeking their coaching job while on tour ! While with our national team on tour ! I would have fired him on the spot and left him in India. Our national coach bears our flag. Dav got away with this kind of outrageous acts since his BCB friends call him "Dosto". Dav plays the system well. That's how he survived after insulting our national team's pride.

Quote:
I have no doubt McInnes has an eye for pick talent. But SN, Rajjak, Aftab, Rajib none are product of McInnes. In fact SN was dropped McInnes in U19. They are handpicked by Faruq and Co if not Dav. Only two of McInnes boys are in team - Sakib and Mushy. I think you belive Mushy is not ready yet to fill the boot of KM.
You may be a little mixed up on this. SN, Rajjak, Aftab, Rajib, Enamul Jr, Nafis, Nadif Choudhury, Mehrab jr, even Tamim, all were trained by McInnes. This is just a partial list. Several more promising McInnes boys are waiting for their chance still. In fact, McInnes complained loudly when Dav Whatmore introduced these young players to the senior side prematurely. Nobody was handpicked by Faruk, well, except for Rana. This is incorrect information you have here. If you remove these guys, there won't be much left of our team.

Quote:
You get your history wrong. Dav was hired after the nightmare of 2003. The two jokers from Pakistan was at the helm in WC2003. By the time Dave came Aminul went to Australia. Akram might get raw treatment. But your last sentence is true but not compensation but in the name of continuity. He carried Alok, KM too long and still carrying proven underperformer Ash for too long.
You are right. Dav did not pick the team for the last WC. It was my mistake. However, he has been known, even in Sri Lanka for dumping experienced players prematurely, going with the new.

Quote:
I think it has nothing to do with Dav. It is BCB's responsibilty to bring batting or bowling coach. Did Dav ask might be the question?
At first, Dav was not in favor of bringing in a batting coach. Later, we got Matau for a few weeks. Afterwords, Dav said he would not have a problem if we bring in a batting coach. The point is, as the head coach of our team, he did not pro-actively seek any innovative solutions to our miserable battng record. Dav was unable to improve the batting on his own. I have done some analysis of it in the past, you will see it in my past articles.

Quote:
I understand fresh air works but only in short term. You need to give Coach long term to bring success and sucking out the bad blood. I would try to bring analogy here. No doubt the class of 1992 is one of the greatest batch of footballer Man U ever produced. They bring back the glory days of ManU. But Sir Fergy worked 5 years with them before they tasted success. Same goes for Arsenal under Wenger.
I do not think bringing McInnes or Bob Wo or X,Y and Z could bring any drastic change of our playing style or fortune.
Dav has given us some success. It has been spotty at best, that is a fact. Now, you might want to let him coach him for ten more years. I, on the other hand, would like to see what another high-profile coach can offer to our team. More specifically, a coach that does not have much history in the sub-continent. Sorry, I don't keep up with English soccer, I don't even think our relatively new cricket history is even comparable to a 100 year old English soccer. We need to take every shortcut to success we can. I think we have already taken from Dav what he had to offer. Keeping him as our coach any longer would actually keep us trapped in his mindframe and his visions.

We need fresh thinking and a more fighting attitude.
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  #24  
Old February 21, 2007, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
You are right, the key word is "improving". It has not 'improved' to the point where it can be called Dav Whatmore's success. For a new, improving team, we should score 250+ or chase 300. That is no miracle, that is standard. Aside from those sporadic events cited here by you, what do you thing our main problem has been?

Batting.

Actually, the 3rd match against Zimbabwe is a good example where our middle order (the most experienced of the batsmen) failed to stop a collapse. This has exactly been the problem. Thank you for pointing that out.

Not much to say about the matches against SL and India. When the team works as a team, you should expect a good show. Our performance against Australia was great at times. However, the results were, 0-2 and 0-3. It's the Aussies that held their nerves under pressure (first test, for example) and took the wins. I hope you remember our second innings in the first test. Even in a commanding position, Bashar conceded the match in the 3rd day. Things have gone from bad to worse for us, while Australia responded better and better to our condition. That comes from mental toughness.

Six years at the top level, of course things will change. Matches against Kenya or Zimbabwe are not good examples of the positive change.

I understand you may have the same work ethics as Dav Whatmore. However, as our national coach, Dav has contractual obligations for facing our media. I have spokne to Dav Whatmore personally. I have talked to other sports journalists and close friends of Dav personally also. May be you know something that I don't. However, I think you should find out how Dav treated our media and how he even stayed away from his own team in Zimbabwe in the previous tour (the one before this last one).

During our England tour, Dav was negotiating possible coaching offer when the team needed him in the field. In India, he was openly and aggressively seeking their coaching job while on tour ! While with our national team on tour ! I would have fired him on the spot and left him in India. Our national coach bears our flag. Dav got away with this kind of outrageous acts since his BCB friends call him "Dosto". Dav plays the system well. That's how he survived after insulting our national team's pride.



You may be a little mixed up on this. SN, Rajjak, Aftab, Rajib, Enamul Jr, Nafis, Nadif Choudhury, Mehrab jr, even Tamim, all were trained by McInnes. This is just a partial list. Several more promising McInnes boys are waiting for their chance still. In fact, McInnes complained loudly when Dav Whatmore introduced these young players to the senior side prematurely. Nobody was handpicked by Faruk, well, except for Rana. This is incorrect information you have here. If you remove these guys, there won't be much left of our team.

You are right. Dav did not pick the team for the last WC. It was my mistake. However, he has been known, even in Sri Lanka for dumping experienced players prematurely, going with the new.

At first, Dav was not in favor of bringing in a batting coach. Later, we got Matau for a few weeks. Afterwords, Dav said he would not have a problem if we bring in a batting coach. The point is, as the head coach of our team, he did not pro-actively seek any innovative solutions to our miserable battng record. Dav was unable to improve the batting on his own. I have done some analysis of it in the past, you will see it in my past articles.

Dav has given us some success. It has been spotty at best, that is a fact. Now, you might want to let him coach him for ten more years. I, on the other hand, would like to see what another high-profile coach can offer to our team. More specifically, a coach that does not have much history in the sub-continent. Sorry, I don't keep up with English soccer, I don't even think our relatively new cricket history is even comparable to a 100 year old English soccer. We need to take every shortcut to success we can. I think we have already taken from Dav what he had to offer. Keeping him as our coach any longer would actually keep us trapped in his mindframe and his visions.

We need fresh thinking and a more fighting attitude.

Very well said. No coach in us stays with their team more then 5/6 year (i men pro teams)

Even if Dav is great we still need to get some one with fresh idea and stuff and i agree with billah bhai that we have got what we can from DAV.

I wish we could bring back Mcness as head coach. we need some one who can manage the whole team as a corporation. Like he will hire batting/bowling/fielding coach. Try to find innovative idea's from other sports like how the make players eye sight better in baseball or fielding coach... now a days a coach with plans for beating other teams doesn't go anymore we need much more than that...
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  #25  
Old February 21, 2007, 04:08 PM
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Dhakablues Dhakablues is offline
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Not sure if anyone noticed but BDNews24.com reported that there will be permanent batting and bowling coach for the national teams. And Dav W. is contracted until the World Cup, or this year, right? He is one of the best coaches around no doubt. But the issue is not with him as much it is with our policies and infra-structures. Its getting better with more matches being played but unless you provide players who has the experience in playing longer versions and did that for few years,,, dont expect any coaches to turn the luck for Bangladesh. Dav will leave soon but its not really the coaches but the coaches from age group, A team that contributes the most to a national team. In fact, With the player pool they have, I think even Sarwar Imran can coach Australia!!
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