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  #1  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:14 PM
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Default People seem to misunderstand this about run rate calculation

If you bat second, its almost impossible to increase your net run rate significantly. That's because the weight of that specific game's run rate has significantly less effect on the total run rate of the tournament. Even if you get your opponents out for 25 runs and score that run in 1 over, you are out of luck. Its all about weight. All 3 games don't have equal value in this calculation.

Open up an excel sheet and do the scenarios. Its easy.
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  #2  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:20 PM
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BC has the World's first online NRR Calculator, TRROC. It's time to pay a visit to it and keep it handy, just in case

TRROC, Net Run Rate Calculator >>
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  #3  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:27 PM
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If you bundle your opposition for 25 runs, and win after batting 1 over, it means you gain NRR of approximately +24.5.

How to calculate NRR

When batting 2nd team wins:
winning team RR - (losing team RR / 50)

When batting 1st team wins:
(winning team runs / 50) - (losing team runs / 50)

Batting 2nd is the best way to boost NRR, especially if you have a specific requirement for boosting NRR.
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  #4  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:30 PM
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I have posted this in another thread. Reposting it here due to relevance

From Cricinfo

Quote:
Net Run Rate explained
Net Run Rate (NRR) has become the preferred method of breaking ties in multi-team one-day international tournaments. It is often misunderstood, but really quite simple to understand. The example and exlanation below is excerpted from CricInfo365's World Cup 1999 edition.
As explained in clause 11.6 of the 1999 World Cup playing conditions, "A team's net run rate is calculated by deducting from the average runs per over scored by that team, the average runs per over scored against that team".
Clause 11.6 goes on to say that "In the event of a team being all out in less than its full quota of overs, the calculation of its net run rate shall be based on the full quota of overs to which it would have been entitled and ot on the number of overs in which the team was dismissed."
Let's take as an example South Africa's net run-rate in the 1999 World Cup. South Africa's listing in the Group A points table published in the group stages was as follows:

P W L NR T Pts Net-RR For Aga
South Africa 3 3 - - - 6 +1.495 678/147.2 466/150
The columns we are looking at here are the last three: "Net-RR", "For" and "Aga". The figure in the "Net-RR" column is achieved by subtracting the answer of the division in the "Aga" column from the answer to the division in the "For" column. To use this example:
FOR

South Africa had scored, so far in the tournament:
  • Against India, 254 runs (for 6 wkts) from 47.2 overs
  • Against Sri Lanka, 199 runs (for 9 wkts) from 50 overs
  • Against England, 225 runs (for 7 wkts) from 50 overs
Across the three games, South Africa scored 678 runs in a total of 147 overs and 2 balls (actually 147.333 overs), a rate of 678/147.333 or 4.602 rpo. AGAINST

Teams opposing South Africa scored:
  • India, 253 (for 5 wkts) from 50 overs.
  • Sri Lanka, 110 all out from 35.2 overs.
  • England, 103 all out from 41 overs.
In the case of Sri Lanka and England, because they were all out before their allotted 50 overs expired, the run rate is calculated as if they had scored their runs over the full 50 overs. Therefore, the run-rate scored against South Africa across the first three games is calculated on the basis of 466 runs in a total of 50 + 50 + 50 = 150 overs, a rate of 466/150 or 3.107 rpo.
NET-RR

The net run-rate is, therefore,
4.602 Run-rate for
3.107 Run-rate against
=====
+ 1.495 ANSWER
=====
P_C bhai, you seems to be wrong in explaining the case.
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Last edited by Miraz; March 19, 2007 at 04:27 PM..
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  #5  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
If you bundle your opposition for 25 runs, and win after batting 1 over, it means you gain NRR of approximately +24.5.

How to calculate NRR

When batting 2nd team wins:
winning team RR - (losing team RR / 50)

When batting 1st team wins:
(winning team runs / 50) - (losing team runs / 50)

Batting 2nd is the best way to boost NRR, especially if you have a specific requirement for boosting NRR.
Correct! that's what I also thought. But not sure PC got it from where
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  #6  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:43 PM
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i was afraid of what PC bhai was saying but since most ppl are saying chasing is ok, then im cool with it.

we can chase a RR of 8 with aftab, TI, ash aftab and mash
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  #7  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:49 PM
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I also don't get the P_C bhai's idea. Could you pls elaborate a bit.
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  #8  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
If you bundle your opposition for 25 runs, and win after batting 1 over, it means you gain NRR of approximately +24.5.

How to calculate NRR

When batting 2nd team wins:
winning team RR - (losing team RR / 50)

When batting 1st team wins:
(winning team runs / 50) - (losing team runs / 50)

Batting 2nd is the best way to boost NRR, especially if you have a specific requirement for boosting NRR.
What you are missing is that, its aggregate. Not total of individual games. I know that if you are all out at 25 in 5 overs, your over is still 50 and positive run rate is 0.5. What most people are missing is that its aggregate and that game has little weight on the total. I have done it in for many tournaments. We are in a scary situation if Bermuda bats first. I was so hoping that Bermuda bats first against India. That would have been a nail in the coffin for them regardless of the total runs.
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  #9  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:53 PM
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It's easier to win against SL, than wait until Bermuda game to score more than 8+/over for 50 overs, if we are batting first (because Bermuda sent us in) and restricting them to less than what they have achieved (game not yet finished) against India. I
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  #10  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:54 PM
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so India is going to benefit as Beruda may not last 50 overs and may get booked under 100. Say they score 100 in 30 overs, we'll actually get their rr based on 50 overs. Whereas, if they had batted first, we'd only have looked at the actuall over played:

Batting first 100/30 = 3.33 rr
Batting second 100/50 = 2 rr
Net difference 1.33. WHy would Bermuda do that ? I always think losing by 10 wickets is better then losing by 300+ runs.

Now, India scored 413 at 8.26 rr: If Bermuda does make it to 100 in 30 overs, the net rr will be 8.226 - 2.00 = 6.266. That's hard to emulate, not impossible.

IF Bermuda had batted first and scored the same 100 runs in 30 overs, their rr would have been 3.33, a little more cushion then 2.0. Say India reached 101 at the rate of 8.26, the net rr would have been 8.26-3.33 = 4.87. See the difference ?

Now, lets say for arguements sake that India had reached 101 in 15 overs, like they did, the rr was about 6.6. Net rr would have been 6.6 - 3.33= 3.27. ow, imagine that. What could Bermuda possibly earn from bowling first ? And ask yourself this - what could India earn from getting to bat first even after losing the toss ?

I am not suggesting that this is intentional but hey, Indian police has been way too busy lately trying to hunt down players from other countries (South Africa mainly) in connection to match fixing, matches that were fixed by Indian syndicates.
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  #11  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:56 PM
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No you are not correct. Pagol.

NRR is what Spitty has explained. We will be in advatage position if we can bat second and knock of the runs 9 runs per over.

At the end of the group stage all teams NRR from each matches are added up.
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  #12  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:57 PM
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This is what mentioned in the section 21.9.5 of the 2007 ICC World Cup Playing Condition:

A team’s net run rate is calculated by deducting from the average runs per over scored by that team throughout the relevant portion of the competition, the average runs per over scored against that team throughout the relevant portion of the competition.

In the event of a team being all out in less than its full quota of overs, the calculation of its net run rate shall be based on the full quota of overs to which it would have been entitled and not on the number of overs in which the team was dismissed. Only those matches where results are achieved will count for the purpose of net run rate calculations. Where a match is abandoned, but a result is achieved under Duckworth/Lewis, for net run rate purposes Team 1 will be accredited with Team 2’s Par Score on abandonment off the same number of overs faced by Team 2. Where a match is concluded but with Duckworth/Lewis having been applied at an earlier point in the match, Team 1 will be accredited with 1 run less than the final Target Score for Team 2 off the total number of overs allocated to Team 2 to reach the target.

In circumstances where a match (and the points for such match) is awarded to a team as a result of the other team’s refusal to play, either by the umpires in accordance with Law 21.3 (a)(ii) or in accordance with the provisions of the relevant event agreements signed by the participating teams, the net run rate of the defaulting team shall be affected in that the full 50 overs of the defaulting team’s innings in such forfeited match shall be taken into account in calculating the average runs per over of the defaulting team over the course of the relevant portion of the competition. For the avoidance of doubt the runs scored and overs bowled in such forfeited match will not be taken into account when calculating the net run rate of the team to whom the match was awarded.

Source: 2007 ICC World Cup Playing Condition

ICC made some changes to the playing condition on March 15th to net run rate carryover confusion.
They added the terms "relevant portion of the competition". This clarifies that a team's net run-rate in the Super 8s stage of the tournament will be calculated on the basis of matches against other sides that have qualified for that stage and not on the basis of all matches it has played in the tournament.
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  #13  
Old March 19, 2007, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehsin
so India is going to benefit as Beruda may not last 50 overs and may get booked under 100. Say they score 100 in 30 overs, we'll actually get their rr based on 50 overs. Whereas, if they had batted first, we'd only have looked at the actuall over played:

Batting first 100/30 = 3.33 rr
Batting second 100/50 = 2 rr
Net difference 1.33. WHy would Bermuda do that ? I always think losing by 10 wickets is better then losing by 300+ runs...
Wrong again!! Batting first 100/30 allout = 2 runrate cause they were allout. 50overs will be counted no matter how many overs they play.

batting first 100/10 overs allout rr = 100/20 overs allout rr = 100/30 overs rr and so on so forth. Allout automatically puts you at the maximum number of overs.

Check it out in BD-INd game. Ind had rr of 3.82 = 191/50 not 3.858 = 191/49.3 while calculating NRR.
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  #14  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:00 PM
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Calculating NRR is not that difficult. But it is interesting to calculate the TARGET NRR.

As an example, consider the following scenario:

Team A : 4 points after 3 match
Team B : 4 points after 3 match
Team C : 2 points after 2 match
Team D : 0 points after 2 match

Now the last match is being played between Team C and D. Team C is expected to win which will make the Team A, B & C even and NRR is needed to decide the top 2 teams.

In this last match, if Team D scores 200 runs from 50 overs, Team C must know exactly how many Overs maximum they should use to score 200+ in order to get a certain NRR to be on the top two.

Or

In this last match, if Team C scores 200 runs from 50 overs, Team C must know exactly how many Runs maximum they should concede in order to get a certain NRR to be on the top two.

That's where we need to calculate the "Target" NRR and TRROC can do just that.
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  #15  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pagol-chagol
If you bat second, its almost impossible to increase your net run rate significantly. That's because the weight of that specific game's run rate has significantly less effect on the total run rate of the tournament. Even if you get your opponents out for 25 runs and score that run in 1 over, you are out of luck. Its all about weight. All 3 games don't have equal value in this calculation.

Open up an excel sheet and do the scenarios. Its easy.
Yes, you are correct ! That is why Bermuda choosing to bowl first has really hurt us.

Also, something else to keep an eye on: If a side is bowled out in less than 50 overs, then 50 is still used for the NRR calculation. For example, Sri Lanka bowled out Bermuda for 78 in 24.3 overs. But the run rate deducted from its batting run rate to arrive at the NRR is [ 78/ 50 = 1.56 ] and not 3.18.

That's why it is [ 321/50 - 78/50 ] = 4.86
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  #16  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:05 PM
BanglaCool BanglaCool is offline
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Given that Bermuda is chasing India's 413/50, how much do they need to make (regardless of when they get out, since the total 50 overs will be used to calculate their RR) so that India's NRR is just lower than Sri Lanka's ?
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  #17  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pagol-chagol
What you are missing is that, its aggregate. Not total of individual games. I know that if you are all out at 25 in 5 overs, your over is still 50 and positive run rate is 0.5. What most people are missing is that its aggregate and that game has little weight on the total. I have done it in for many tournaments. We are in a scary situation if Bermuda bats first. I was so hoping that Bermuda bats first against India. That would have been a nail in the coffin for them regardless of the total runs.
PC bhai, let's make you a bit relaxed.

Bangladesh net run rate (speculative)

Banglades score
Against India 192 (48.3 overs)
Against Sri Lanka 275 (50 overs)

Opponent score
India 191 (50 overs)
Sri Lanka 254 (50 overs)

Bangladesh score 467 in 98.3 overs (after 2 games)
Opponents score 445 in 100 overs (after 2 games)

Bangladesh NRR - 467/98.3 - 445/100 = + 0.29117

Now comes Bermuda, if we bat second

Bermuda Score - 97 in 35 overs (will be counted as 50 overs)
Bangladesh score 100 in 8 overs

New calculation,

Bangladesh score 567 in 108.3 overs (after 3 games)
Opponents score 542 in 150 overs (after 3 games)

Bangladesh NRR = 567/108.3 - 542/150 = 1.62

Now if Bangladesh bats first against Bermuda

Bangladesh score - 325 in 50 overs
Bermuda score 165 in 44.5 overs

Bangladesh score (for) - 792 in 148.3 overs (after 3 games)
Opponents score - 610 in 150 overs (after 3 games)

Bangladesh NRR = 792/148.3 - 610/150 = + 1.27

Got it?

If we bat second we still have good chance to pick the run rate.
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  #18  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
No you are not correct. Pagol.

NRR is what Spitty has explained. We will be in advatage position if we can bat second and knock of the runs 9 runs per over.

At the end of the group stage all teams NRR from each matches are added up.
AGGREGATE. AGGREGATE. AGGREGATE.

Thats what most people are not getting. Each game's NRR is not calculated separately to add up. Got it?

I have done it for actual tournaments where I have played and almost had fights with people in meetings about this issue.

If your opponent scores 50 in 15 overs then their positive is 50/50=1.00. But, thats not what I am talking about. If you chase it in 5 overs then the 51 you score will be added to your totals in other games and your 10 overs will be added to your aggregate over totals.


I'll do a hypothetical calculation for you shortly. The key word is "Aggregate". Each game doesn't have equal weight.
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Old March 19, 2007, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pagol-chagol
AGGREGATE. AGGREGATE. AGGREGATE.

Thats what most people are not getting. Each game's NRR is not calculated separately to add up. Got it?

I have done it for actual tournaments where I have played and almost had fights with people in meetings about this issue.

If your opponent scores 50 in 15 overs then their positive is 50/50=1.00. But, thats not what I am talking about. If you chase it in 5 overs then the 51 you score will be added to your totals in other games and your 10 overs will be added to your aggregate over totals.


I'll do a hypothetical calculation for you shortly. The key word is "Aggregate". Each game doesn't have equal weight.

Calculating net run rate match by match and calculating net run rate agggregately-- both will result in same NRR. We'll wait for your hypothetical calculation to see where you coming from.
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  #20  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babubangla
Calculating net run rate match by match and calculating net run rate agggregately-- both will result in same NRR. We'll wait for your hypothetical calculation to see where you coming from.
I don't think so. anyway i am also waiting for P_C.
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  #21  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
PC bhai, let's make you a bit relaxed.

Bangladesh net run rate (speculative)

Banglades score
Against India 192 (48.3 overs)
Against Sri Lanka 275 (50 overs)

Opponent score
Got it?

If we bat second we still have good chance to pick the run rate.
You got the procedure right. You have us beating SriLanka though. Switch the score there.

Say SriLanka scores 275 and we score 254.

India beats Srilanka in the las ball scoring about 250.

And then put in different scenarios in excel if we chase and you'll see how impossible that is. I have an excel sheet open. If Bermuda scores 75 runs and wescore 76 runs in 1 ball, we still don't go through.
Here is the total.
Srilanka
846 150 583 150 5.64 3.886666667 1.75333
Bangladesh
522 98.666 541 150 5.290576288 3.606666667 1.68391
India
855 150 592 148.5 5.7 3.986531987 1.71347
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  #22  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babubangla
Calculating net run rate match by match and calculating net run rate agggregately-- both will result in same NRR. We'll wait for your hypothetical calculation to see where you coming from.
Sorry, Pagol-Chagol is absolutely correct. If the NRR is the sum of individual NRR's then I will eat my hat !

I haven't got one. So, I will go out and buy one and then eat it.
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  #23  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:20 PM
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The whole debate will be completely academic if
1. BD beats SL

2. SL beats IND.
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  #24  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pagol-chagol
You got the procedure right. You have us beating SriLanka though. Switch the score there.

Say SriLanka scores 275 and we score 254.

India beats Srilanka in the las ball scoring about 250.

And then put in different scenarios in excel if we chase and you'll see how impossible that is. I have an excel sheet open. If Bermuda scores 75 runs and wescore 76 runs in 1 ball, we still don't go through.
Here is the total.
Srilanka
846 150 583 150 5.64 3.886666667 1.75333
Bangladesh
522 98.666 541 150 5.290576288 3.606666667 1.68391
India
855 150 592 148.5 5.7 3.986531987 1.71347
Hmm...

What's the scenario if Bermuda makes 175 and we make 176 in 10 overs?
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  #25  
Old March 19, 2007, 02:26 PM
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Srilanka (321 + 275 + 250)/150 - (78+254+251)/150 =1.753
Bangladesh (192+254+76)/98.666 -(191+275+75)/150 =1.684 (Even if we score 76 runs in 1 ball agaist Bermuda)
India (191+413+251)/150 - (192+150+250)/148.5 =1.713(if Bermuda scores 150 against India)

I have done this for many tournaments
Play this in excel and you'll understand why chasing sucks for "Aggregate" NRR.
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