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  #1  
Old April 12, 2007, 12:24 PM
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Default JO's "solidity" in numbers

"Reliable" JO (55 innings)

Runs    #outs   %percentage
0-9 22 40%
11-19 14 25.45%
-----------------------------
0-19 36 65.45%


"Unreliable" Ashraful (90 innings)

Runs    #outs   %percentage
0-9 39 43.33%
11-19 18 20%
----------------------------
0-19 57 63.33%


Stats of few other international batsmen

Batsman      < 20 outs    %percentage
--------------------------------------
Dravid 109 37.58%
Kallis 63 34.61%
Pietersen 13 30.23%
Ian Bell 15 36.58%
Collingwood 49 45.37%
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  #2  
Old April 12, 2007, 12:39 PM
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One thing people get wrong about JO: they think he has a solid defense. Actually, he completely lacks offense. If you take out the shot playing ability of all the players they all will be JO. In other words, he does not have anything that others don't. So, why play JO. just ask Tamim to play like JO (like NZ game) if you really need that. That way, at least, when you need to go all out attack, he can do that. JO can't.
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  #3  
Old April 12, 2007, 12:44 PM
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Great thread, but I have a feeling that people here arent still opening their eyes.
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  #4  
Old April 12, 2007, 12:47 PM
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Ki bahaduri, wow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
"Reliable" JO (55 innings)
Runs #outs %percentage
0-9 22 40%
11-19 14 25.45%
-----------------------------
0-19 36 65.45%


"Unreliable" Ashraful (90 innings)
Runs #outs %percentage
0-9 39 43.33%
11-19 18 20%
----------------------------
0-19 57 63.33%


Stats of few other international batsmen
Batsman < 20 outs %percentage
--------------------------------------
Dravid 109 37.58%
Kallis 63 34.61%
Pietersen 13 30.23%
Ian Bell 15 36.58%
Collingwood 49 45.37%
apple and oranges!
show me something that I can compare with.
Opener vs opener.
JO vs SN, NI, TI, Mehrab Jr., Rajin, Ash (opening innings) that would be a fair discussion.

When did Dravid, Pieterson, Collingwood open? Please!! Why bring International players all together? last checked they have no intention of having a BD passport.
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  #5  
Old April 12, 2007, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonoy
Great thread, but I have a feeling that people here arent still opening their eyes.
I did!!!...I am reading your post now!
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  #6  
Old April 12, 2007, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Ki bahaduri, wow!

apple and oranges!
show me something that I can compare with.
Opener vs opener.
JO vs SN, NI, TI, Me...



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Last edited by kalpurush; April 12, 2007 at 01:15 PM..
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  #7  
Old April 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
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Why compare Ashraful with Javed Omar? Javed Omar is facing the new ball and Ashraful comes down the order. If you need to compare JO with someone, it has to be another opener from Bangladesh. I don't know why the other batsmen are mentioned here. JO is not fighting for a place in an international XI. Just give us other players stats and we would know who is better.
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  #8  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:05 PM
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I will ask a bit of different question: if you are to have someone of sheet anchor role in the openers, why not Rajin and why JO? Rajin nows how to bowl and is a better fielder than JO (JO is not a bad fielder at all, I must point out. In fact his only quality). But Rajin tops that. Batting wise, Rajin has better Average and strike Rate than JO in opening position. Most importantly, Rajin is not moon struck like JO when coming to rotate the strike.

Then, for those of you who wants JO, give me one reason why not Rajin?
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  #9  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:09 PM
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It's impossible to directly compare JO with any other BD opener. Only JO has played all of his ODIs as opener. Ashraful has played lots of matches as opener, and as a top order batsman he faced new ball in many occasions (because of our unreliable opening partnership).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
When did Dravid, Pieterson, Collingwood open? Please!! Why bring International players all together? last checked they have no intention of having a BD passport.
Dravid and Kallis stat was included because they are the standard of a solid batsman. JO fans like to think that he is some sort of poor man's Dravid/Kallis.

Pietersen/Collingwood/Bell example was shown to indicate that a batsman's reliablity doesn't depend on how aggressive they are.

And none of them were directly compared with JO (only Ashraful's stats were directly compared), they were kept separate.
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  #10  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:11 PM
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Forget about comparison with other players for a moment, just ask yourself whether 40% dismissals under 10 and total 65% dismissals under 20 makes someone a reliable opener or not.
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  #11  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:18 PM
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Forget about every thing and just think who would you pick after 5/6 WC games?

This is so veg. This guy started playing when we played ICC Cup. he didn't grew up with all the facility now a days guys have but still he made what ever he made in the WC and SN didn't. so for WC I don't see a point for bring those stats (when we were getting beaten left and right to prove a point now) so please stop these childish argument based on stats and like dislike (its not even apple or orange its plastic plate and apple). I wish SN was doing well but he ain't. so what is JO 's fault that in order for Great SN to get his form back we have to seat hiM??

No one is above BD team. perform or get out.

We have a double standard here. we want Hablu out for is off form and don't want him to get back his form while playing on the other hand we want SN to come and play and get his form back. very poor sp the first three poster...
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  #12  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:22 PM
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everyone knows that JO is not better than anyone else... hes the worse..but he did an OKAY job in the last 2 matches....he played... gave us a good opening partnership.. but with slow rate.. which is not so bad....

nafees ekhon porjonto..ekta partnership korte pareni......

ar shobai ore niye pagol hoyese... hes completely a minnow basher... fielding o valo pare na.. and hes completely out of form....

eishob stats to ei wc e kono kaaje ashbe bole mone hoi na... ei stats gulo jodi kaaje lagto taile to Nafees shob match eii 50+ korto... naki??
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  #13  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:24 PM
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Compare JO with other openers in our team. You can't compare him to world-class batsmen, especially those that bat down the order. This is just another thread for attention. Most of us don't like JO, but there's nothing we can do if selectors make him play. JO played because SN wasn't ready. SN played last match, JO was dropped, I don't see why anyone should be complaining.
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  #14  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:29 PM
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doesn't matter none of our batsmen are solid..gota wait few more years and give these batsmen some bashing, send them to batting boot camp under a tough batting coach, change the pitches and get bowlers like Lee or Murali....they will bcome "solid"...Have we done any of those?? As of now, we have none of the above.
Neither JO nor Ash's nobody is solid.
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  #15  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
Forget about comparison with other players for a moment, just ask yourself whether 40% dismissals under 10 and total 65% dismissals under 20 makes someone a reliable opener or not.
Don't get me wrong. I am not a JO supporter but the answer to your question is it depends. If everyone else has 75% dismissals under 20, then yeah it does make him a comparatively reliable opener. You can't just look at the stats and reach to a conclusion. It is more complicated than that.
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  #16  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubu
I will ask a bit of different question: if you are to have someone of sheet anchor role in the openers, why not Rajin and why JO? Rajin nows how to bowl and is a better fielder than JO (JO is not a bad fielder at all, I must point out. In fact his only quality). But Rajin tops that. Batting wise, Rajin has better Average and strike Rate than JO in opening position. Most importantly, Rajin is not moon struck like JO when coming to rotate the strike.

Then, for those of you who wants JO, give me one reason why not Rajin?
I have no problem picking Rajin over Javed Omar for obvious reasons that you mentioned. However, I will think twice if it is between Shahriar Nafees and Javed Omar.
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  #17  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
It's impossible to directly compare JO with any other BD opener. Only JO has played all of his ODIs as opener. Ashraful has played lots of matches as opener, and as a top order batsman he faced new ball in many occasions (because of our unreliable opening partnership).
Do a filter or something. If not then don't compare with Ash. "because of our unreliable opening partnership" this is the weakest arguement I have heard to compare apples with oranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
Dravid and Kallis stat was included because they are the standard of a solid batsman. JO fans like to think that he is some sort of poor man's Dravid/Kallis.

Pietersen/Collingwood/Bell example was shown to indicate that a batsman's reliablity doesn't depend on how aggressive they are.
how pathetic. In the World there aren't anyother openers who have solid standard? You did it for a deliberate reason. We all know that. Are we dumb enough not to know what percentage is good or what is bad?

JO is solid considering all BD openers. That is what I have seen. That is the bottom line. Unless you can bring stats of other BD openers there is no arguement here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
And none of them were directly compared with JO (only Ashraful's stats were directly compared), they were kept separate.
Then for the sake of arguement you need to start gathering stats because this will not hold water.
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  #18  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:36 PM
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Kabir Bhai,

You asked quite a few valid questions. Let me try to answer a few of them:

Why do people want off form SN: that answer is very simple. He has the potential to turn things around. However, you have to think, is he really off form? True he did not get run in four games at a row. But off those, in two outs he could not do anything. He deserved more chance than that.

Why people wants Hablu out: because people has seen enough of him. People knows that even at his top form, he is not a match winner in ODI. not to mention he is the worst BD captain ever (and please, don't bring in the argument that he is the most successful, that is only because he got the best team, a better captain would have much higher success rate with this team).

Why People want JO out: this one is hard to answer, because I don't know why people would want him in. What exactly does he do to be in the team? Think about the two match he played. In NZ game, he created such a pressure on the RR that everyone else coming after him had to rush. No one had time to settle down and you know the rest of the story. Then SA game. If JO did not get out early in that game, we would have lose it. Good for us that he was not able to play his natural game and got out early. Ash saved the day, but five more overs wasted by JO and even he could not save us on that day.

People wants him to stop collapse. What is the point of having wicket if you do not have a defendable total? So, you want to keep wicket for the end so that they can hit out at the end? how many time does that strategy backfired? most of the time. In today's ODI, you cannot expect to win unless you use power play. When even the associates are trying to make the best of it, we are the only one thinking 20 years into the history.

Even so, why JO and why not Rajin? see by above post for what I mean by this line.
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  #19  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:38 PM
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SN should not play as he will do the same mistake. He should volunterily take rest or seek help from batting coach if our team management gives permission.
Not sure why they took Rajin or Reza if they won't use them at all, what about Shahadat. WI game will be different as they got good quickies and lots of left hand batsmen. But trust me what I saw in Bd innings, we kinda need JO atleast to stay in crease for 50 overs.
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Old April 12, 2007, 01:45 PM
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which one you prefer stopping collapse or loosing early wickets keeping up the run rate!! how many occasions BD did that while loosing early wickets and kept their RR and scored a decent total. JO can't do anything, SN is out of form...then what else is left...go with Rajin!!!
All are guilty...SN for his form, JO too slow, Bashar out of form, Ash+Aftab very inconsistent and can't keep on scoring(besides few match for Ash), Musfiq is nothing...if you have a team with so many problems of batters, it's better we just don't have any hope anymore. And become hopeful when we will ahve better batters.
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  #21  
Old April 12, 2007, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubu
One thing people get wrong about JO: they think he has a solid defense. Actually, he completely lacks offense. If you take out the shot playing ability of all the players they all will be JO. In other words, he does not have anything that others don't. So, why play JO. just ask Tamim to play like JO (like NZ game) if you really need that. That way, at least, when you need to go all out attack, he can do that. JO can't.
actually his back-foot defence shot is quite pretty...i think he has excellent technique on that ONE shot.

but yes, JO completely lacks any kind of offensive aresenal...he's the guy who took 16 or 17 balls to get off the mark against Hong Kong.
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  #22  
Old April 12, 2007, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
how pathetic. In the World there aren't anyother openers who have solid standard? You did it for a deliberate reason. We all know that. Are we dumb enough not to know what percentage is good or what is bad?
I can compare with other teams openers, but how good that will be for you? You can easily say 'they are not qualified to play for our team', 'they are better players anyway', and all that "orange vs apple" bs.

Quote:
JO is solid considering all BD openers. That is what I have seen. That is the bottom line. Unless you can bring stats of other BD openers there is no arguement here.
There is no such thing as "solid" BD opener. Unlike JO, no other BD opener got so many chances at the same position after so many failures. SN plays most his matches against minnows, so these numbers

Here's your < 20 dismissals % at opening (BD openers):

Ashraful: 79% (24 innings)
JO: 66% (53 innings)
RS: 58% (17 innings)
Mehrab (snr): 50% (16 innings)
SN: 47% (46 innings) [68% from 19 innings, if only matches against top 8 teams count]

None of them are really successful, Ashraful being the worst is already out of contention. Mehrab jnr. and Tamim played too few matches to be included in the comparison.

Isn't JO really lucky to be called solid? And how does he keep getting so many changes after so many failures? Clearly one standard works for the others and another standard for him.

BD opening batting has always been like a cancer. Some people like to think JO is the morphine. He is not even that, he's just a placebo.
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Old April 12, 2007, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubu
One thing people get wrong about JO: they think he has a solid defense. Actually, he completely lacks offense. If you take out the shot playing ability of all the players they all will be JO.
Spot on. The only reason JO sticks is because he really can't make shots even if he wants to. As soon as he starts his Jharu Bari, he starts giving edges.

But tactically speaking, that attribute of JO's can be helpful for the team. Even if someone like Tamim is told to quiet it down, it is hard for them to resist temptation when width is on offer. Whereas JO will just shoulder up and leave the ball.

So playing JO means that the team is deliberately tying it's hands for the first 10 overs - sacrificing runs to preserve wickets. Even though I am a big believer of Spitfire's anti-JO theme, I honestly think that if JO played in the ENG match, we may have had a better overall batting performance.
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Old April 12, 2007, 03:02 PM
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We know these stats. I am not saying JO is an ideal opener for Bangladesh. He is well below par.

Now, supporting JO for this world cup is a different proposition. Everything is happening in broad day light, JO is forming partnerships while other are failing. And other option SN, (apart from Tamim) is performing well below JO level. That's sad but true.

Old stats are useless when someone is performing and doing better than others. JO definitely performed better than SN (compare NZ warm-up, NZ match and SA match) when opportunity was given
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Old April 12, 2007, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubu
Kabir Bhai,

You asked quite a few valid questions. Let me try to answer a few of them:

Why do people want off form SN: that answer is very simple. He has the potential to turn things around. However, you have to think, is he really off form? True he did not get run in four games at a row. But off those, in two outs he could not do anything. He deserved more chance than that.
I Think SN is not only off form he is more than that. he is confused. And playing him over and over without fixing his problem will lose him for ever. I don't know which ball you are saying was good that he got out, But to me he got out all the cases because he was confused.
I agree he need chances but i think that come after WC or at least after the england game. now we know we r out so we can experiment all we want. we can play rajin, shadat and him all we want. but I think it was a great great mistake not to play him. also how long do u wanna keep him in the team say he doesn't make score? think about that too
Quote:
Why people wants Hablu out: because people has seen enough of him. People knows that even at his top form, he is not a match winner in ODI. not to mention he is the worst BD captain ever (and please, don't bring in the argument that he is the most successful, that is only because he got the best team, a better captain would have much higher success rate with this team).
Again I think we can do all the changes after WC not during it.
Quote:
Why People want JO out: this one is hard to answer, because I don't know why people would want him in. What exactly does he do to be in the team? Think about the two match he played. In NZ game, he created such a pressure on the RR that everyone else coming after him had to rush. No one had time to settle down and you know the rest of the story. Then SA game. If JO did not get out early in that game, we would have lose it. Good for us that he was not able to play his natural game and got out early. Ash saved the day, but five more overs wasted by JO and even he could not save us on that day.
This is very poor thinking. You can't have a predetermined conception on some one like that. remember he is there was we needed a experienced opener just in case something like this happens. Even though management thought this might happen as tamim is new but our bad luck is it happen because of SN.

Again I am not saying he should be there for rest of the life we r saying about the WC only. so please put things in perspective.

This is very foolish to say In NZ game every one had to come and flash cause he ate up balls. well what happen then in ENG game why every body was in a rush then? may be our batsmen plays like that and we could play and score a little more than ENG game because he ate up those balls or else we might have ended up with a lower score than england game. please don't blame some body just shake of blaming. if we take that NZ game in account and have the same score in England game you know what we might have won that match too.
Quote:

People wants him to stop collapse. What is the point of having wicket if you do not have a defendable total? So, you want to keep wicket for the end so that they can hit out at the end? how many time does that strategy backfired? most of the time. In today's ODI, you cannot expect to win unless you use power play. When even the associates are trying to make the best of it, we are the only one thinking 20 years into the history.
U see the pointless point u r making? just take the wc games we won that he played and see why we need him. think if he hadn't played those game we might have scored less then what we have. He scored and the other opener didn't.
Think this way, because he made those slow runs we were able to do what we did. but if you think because what he couldn't make we did what we did then i have nothing to say.
Quote:
Even so, why JO and why not Rajin? see by above post for what I mean by this line.
Rajin is taken as a middle order bastman not an opener. he was the backup for any middle oreder batsmen that may fail, which in this WC case didn't (well i know hablu did but that u can't drop a captain).
Remember one thing goola wouldn't have got a signle game if SN played well just like rajin and Shadat.
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