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June 20, 2007, 11:00 AM
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Cricket Savant
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Islam: Religion or Ideology, an essay by Imam Zaid Shakir
About the author from the Zaytuna website: "Zaid Shakir is amongst the most respected and influential Islamic scholars in the West. As an American Muslim who came of age during the civil rights struggles, he has brought both sensitivity about race and poverty issues and scholarly discipline to his faith-based work.
Born in Berkeley, California, he accepted Islam in 1977 while serving in the United States Air Force. He obtained a BA with honors in International Relations at American University in Washington D.C. and later earned his MA in Political Science at Rutgers University. While at Rutgers, he led a successful campaign for disinvestment from South Africa, and co-founded a local Islamic center, Masjid al-Huda.
After a year of studying Arabic in Cairo, Egypt, he settled in New Haven, Connecticut and continued his community activism, co-founding Masjid al-Islam, the Tri-State Muslim Education Initiative, and the Connecticut Muslim Coordinating Committee. As Imam of Masjid al-Islam from 1988 to 1994 he spear-headed a community renewal and grassroots anti-drug effort, and also taught political science and Arabic at Southern Connecticut State University. He then left for Syria to pursue his studies in the traditional Islamic sciences.
For seven years in Syria, and briefly in Morocco, he immersed himself in an intense study of Arabic, Islamic law, Quranic studies, and spirituality with some of the top Muslim scholars of our age. In 2001, he graduated from Syria's prestigious Abu Noor University and returned to Connecticut, serving again as the Imam of Masjid al-Islam, and writing and speaking frequently on a host of issues. That same year, his translation from Arabic into English of The Heirs of the Prophets was published by Starlatch Press.
In 2003, he moved to Hayward, California to serve as a scholar-in-residence and lecturer at Zaytuna Institute, where he now teaches courses on Arabic, Islamic law, history, and Islamic spirituality. In 2005, Zaytuna Institute published Scattered Pictures, an anthology of diverse essays penned by Zaid Shakir.
He is a frequent speaker at local and national Muslim events and has emerged as one of the nation’s top Islamic scholars and a voice of conscience for American Muslims and non-Muslims alike."
The article: I felt somewhat compelled to share the following article by Imam Zaid Shakir with you. It is a long read, but worth the time in gold. Other article's by the Imam on a wide variety of relevant subjects can be found in the New Islamic Directions website:
http://www.newislamicdirections.com/
Islam: Religion or Ideology?
By Imam Zaid on 26 July 2006
Category: Ideology
Introduction
“Leave this Europe where they are never done talking of Man, yet they murder men everywhere they find them, at the corner of every one of their streets, in all corners of the globe. For centuries they have stifled almost all of humanity in the name of a so-called spiritual experience. Look at them today swaying between atomic and spiritual disintegration.… That same Europe where they are never done talking of Man, and where they never stopped proclaiming that they were only anxious for the welfare of Man: today we know what sufferings humanity has paid for every one of their triumphs of the mind.”
Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth
The following essay, Islam: Religion or Ideology?, was written three weeks ago, before the government of Israel began its brutal, murderous assault on the civilian population of Lebanon, allegedly in response to the capture of two Israeli soldiers by fighters affiliated with the Lebanese Islamic organization, Hizbollah. This latest Israeli campaign only underscores the price the people of the Middle East have paid owing to the triumph of Zionism. That price has been high indeed, and as Lebanon is reduced to bloodstained rubble, the price only escalates.
That said, we should never lose sight of the fact that the Jewish people have also paid heavily for that triumph. The growing number of Jewish victims of the deepening cycles of violence plaguing the region, evidenced most recently in the indiscriminant Hizbollah rocket attacks on northern Israeli cities, is part of that price. However, in my opinion, the greater price lies in how the triumph of
Zionism threatens to transform mainstream Judaism from a religion characterized by the loftiest of moral codes, to one that is willing to sacrifice its morality on the altar of political expediency.
Evidence of Jewish philanthropy, and goodwill towards the generality of humanity still exists—one has to only look at the charitable and social justice work done both here and globally by Jews—however, the overwhelming support the people of Israel, and Jews in other parts of the world, have given to this most recent campaign of murder and destruction against the defenseless Lebanese people
(most of whom are not politically aligned with Hizbollah) points to the sad reality of a great world faith being diminished by the political agenda of the Zionist state.
The following is part of an effort by this writer to warn Muslims against allowing the reduction of our religion by similar political imperatives. We should never hope to see the day when, if possessing the requisite firepower, Muslims would visit upon the civilian population of Israel the sort of savage violence we see decimating the innocent civilians of Gaza and Lebanon. God has imposed limits on
our behavior, even in times of war, and we should never transgress those limits. Our failure to observe those limits not only threatens to destroy the moral foundations of our religion, it will also add to the suffering of innocent human beings.
Time does not allow a deeper analysis of the current crisis. In the near future, I plan to write an extensive article on this issue. For now, I will conclude my remarks with the deeply insightful and frighteningly prophetic words of the Zionist philosopher Ahad Ha’am (Asher Ginsberg). He writes over one hundred years ago:
“One thing we certainly should have learned from our past and present history, and that is not to create anger among the local population against us… We have to treat the local population with love and respect, justly and rightly. And what do our brethren in the Land of Israel do? Exactly the opposite! Slaves they were in their country of exile, and suddenly they find themselves in a boundless and anarchic freedom, as is always the case with a slave that has become king; and they behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, infringe upon their boundaries, hit them shamefully without reason, and even brag about it. Our brethren are right when they say that the Arab honours only those who show valor and fortitude; but this is the case only when he feels that the other side has justice on his side. It is very different in a case when [the Arab] thinks that his opponent’s actions are iniquitous and unlawful; in that case he may keep his anger to himself for a long time, but it will dwell in
his heart and in the long run he will prove himself to be vengeful and full of retribution.”
Ahad Ha’am, Complete Works
Islam: Religion or Ideology?
At a recently concluded convention of the Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), I mentioned during one of my presentations that the verse quoted below should be understood as a religious—not a political—statement:
It is He who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth in order that He shows its superiority over all other religion, even if the idolaters detest it. [Al-Qur’an 9:33, 61:9]
In doing so, my purpose was to challenge one of the principal texts offered as a proof to support the idea that Islam advances a scheme of global domination, and as such there is no basis in Islamic teaching for peaceful coexistence with other faiths and communities.
After my presentation, I was met by several young Muslims who vehemently expressed their opposition to my referring to the above verse as a religious proclamation. I understood the reason for their objections and responded by explaining the theological basis of my claim. Left unsaid, however, was the greater issue that informs the popular understanding of the verse, which is the growing tendency among Muslims to read many of our foundational texts politically and not theologically. Such a reading shifts the emphasis of our religion away from the Hereafter and creates a distorted focus on the world.
Islam is one of the world’s great religions. As such, it concerns itself with the principal issues that dominate the discourse surrounding any faith. These issues include identifying, believing in, worshipping, and obeying the Divine in anticipation of otherworldly rewards, or the avoidance of otherworldly punishments.
At the heart of these issues is a deep concern for the eventual salvation of the human being. Islam shares these religious concerns, God mentions in the Qur’an:
Every soul will experience death, and you will be given your recompense in full on the Day of Resurrection. The one who is saved from Hellfire and admitted into Paradise will be truly victorious. And what is the life of this world except a deceptive enjoyment. [Al-Qur’an 3:185]
Like all other religions in their respective milieus, Islam also has profound and far-reaching political implications. It has shaped law, government, commerce, social relations, and virtually every other sphere of life in the Muslim world. However, its political implications are subordinate to its religious teachings. Hence, for example, a Muslim individual or polity may succeed politically, while being damned religiously, because basic injunctions of the religion have been sacrificed to unsanctioned political imperatives, or unacceptable motives. A vivid illustration of this result is given to us in the well-known prophetic tradition that mentions a great Mujahid (warrior) who achieved the epitome of worldly success, but lost his soul because of the corrupt intention motivating his efforts.1
Politicized readings of our texts can be seen as part of the growing tendency to reduce Islam to a political ideology. The implications of this reduction are grave. Perhaps the gravest of those implications is turning the primary focus of Islam away from the spirit or soul and orienting it towards the world, thereby reducing the sacred understanding to the level of the mundane. The reasons we must resist this reorientation become clearer when we reflect upon the nature of ideologies. The noted political philosopher, Roger Scruton, defines an ideology as:
Any systematic and all-embracing political doctrine, which claims to give a complete and universally applicable theory of man and society, and to derive there from a programme of political action.2
A Muslim might read this definition and opine that Islam is indeed an ideology as it presents a “complete and universally applicable theory of man and society.” However, the relevant realm of action and thought for an ideology is the political, as Scruton points out. This limitation to the political realm marks where Islam parts with ideology. Islam is not simply concerned with man’s political condition; it is also concerned with his spiritual condition, and at the heart of the Islamic call is a normative program for spiritual salvation. That program accommodates the political, but on its own terms, and it is never limited to it or by it.
Moreover, ideologies are also utilitarian in that the doctrines they espouse are informed as much by their effectiveness as they are by any overarching principles. Few ideologies would deviate far from the
Machiavellian maxim that “the ends justify the means.” Scruton continues with his definition:
An ideology in this sense seeks to embrace everything that is relevant to man’s political condition, and to issue doctrine whenever doctrine would be influential in forming or changing that condition.3
Hence, doctrine issuing from a particular ideology is marshaled based on its efficacy in advancing the cause, not on the basis of any preexisting moral or ethical standard. Such a formulation is at complete odds with Islam and, thus, largely alien to its classical tradition. However, when Islam is reduced to an ideology, it is inevitably relegated to the realm of political expediency. Whatever appears to advance the political cause is seen as Islamic, such as suicide bombings, massacring civilians, murdering other Muslims, destroying public order, or other tactics that have become associated with the ideology and practice of “Islamic Jihad.”4
A strictly political reading of the Qur’an urges such expediency. Such a reading tends to reduce verses of clearly theological or eschatological import to statements of political doctrine. The implications of this for understanding and action, again, are profound. Events whose unfolding is confined to the end of time are assigned an immediacy that begs their applicability here and now. The introductory verse in question provides a stark example of this tendency. In examining the verse, one has to admit that some latter-day exegetes have mentioned a few prophetic traditions that if taken in isolation would seem to urge a political understanding. For example, Ibn Kathir, in commenting on the verse mentions the prophetic tradition:
God has folded up the ends of the Earth for me [showing me] its easternmost and westernmost reaches. The dominion of my nation will reach the extents He has shown me.5
Although the word “dominion,” mentioned in the above tradition may lend itself to a political understanding of the verse, it must be noted that Ibn Kathir mentions other narrations that lend themselves to a strictly theological understanding. Meanwhile, the primary theological and eschatological import of the verse is made clear by Imam Tabari, the dean of Qur’anic exegetes. He mentions in his commentary:
The scholars of [Qur’anic] interpretation differ concerning the meaning of [God’s] saying…in order that He shows its superiority over all other religion. Some of them say that will occur when Jesus returns and all religions will become a single faith. Among those mentioning this [view]:
On the authority of Abu Huraira concerning His [God’s] saying …in order that He shows its superiority over all other religion he said, “At the time Jesus the Son of Mary returns.6
Imam Tabari continues:
Others say that this means He [God] will teach him [the Prophet, Peace and Blessings of God upon him] the laws associated with every religion… Among those mentioning this [view]:
On the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas concerning His [God’s] saying …in order that He shows its superiority over all other religion he said, “In order that God shows His prophet the rulings associated with every religion. He subsequently showed him, and [thereafter] nothing [of religious knowledge] was hidden from him.7
Imam Suyuti mentions the two narrations quoted above in his exegetical work, ad-Durr al-Manthur. He then relates from Imam al-Bayhaqi and others a narration that further emphasizes both the theological and eschatological nature of the verse being discussed. He says:
Sa’id bin Mansur relates, as does Ibn al-Mundhir, along with Imam al-Bayhaqi in his Sunan on the authority of Jabir, May God be pleased with him, concerning the phrase …in order that He shows its superiority over all other religion that he said, “That will not come to pass until every Jew and Christian has entered into Submission, nor until no harm issues from the wolf towards any sheep, from the lion towards any cow, nor from the viper towards any human being. That will not be until even the mouse will not gnaw on a bag of grain. That will not be until the tribute is suspended, the cross is broken, and the pig is slaughtered. All of this will occur when Jesus descends, Peace upon him.8
This theological and eschatological understanding, clear in the exegesis of both Imam Tabari and Imam Suyuti, is shared by Imam al-Qurtubi.9 They all make it clear that these events will occur at the end of time, after the return of Jesus. Accepting this understanding of the verse, coupled with other widely known religious teachings, helps us to assess our current situation in light of the realities confronting us, and to devise strategies to deal with those realities free from a false political imperative, informed in part by this verse, that will likely lead to questionable, desperate, and illadvised
acts owing to our strategic and political weaknesses.
This argument is not meant to imply that Islam is a pacifist religion. As Muslims we believe in the concept of justified warfare. God mentions in the Qur’an:
Permission [to fight] is given to those who are unjustly fought against, and God is most capable of assisting them. Those who have been wrongfully expelled from their homes [for no reason] except their saying, “Our Lord is Allah (God)…” [Al-Qur’an 22:39-40]
Similarly,
Fight in the Way of God those who fight you, but do not transgress. God loves not those who transgress. [Al-Qur’an 2:190]
Hence, Islam has instituted fighting to defend life, honor, property, to restore usurped rights, and to protect the integrity of the religion and the community of the faithful. However, that fighting is governed by well-established laws and principles that articulate rules, regulations, and limitations that outline for Muslims when, where, how, and against whom it is permissible to fight. Those laws and principles have never sanctioned anarchist terrorism, wanton murder, tumult, and mayhem.
Reducing Islam to an ideology threatens to subordinate those laws and principles to political imperatives that have little to do with Islamic teachings. If this happens consistently enough, the social
foundation of our religion may be lost. As Muslims we may well continue in our various struggles. However, those struggles would be better informed by the revolutionary teachings of Bakunin, Georges Sorel, Rosa Luxemburg, Lenin, Mao, Che Guevara, and others than by the revelation given to our Prophet Muhammad, Peace and Blessings of God upon him. In some circumstances, we could possibly muster a credible defense against any number of threats confronting us. However, at the end of the day, we may find that we have very little left to defend.
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1 Imam Abu Zakariyya Yahya bin Sharaf an-Nawawi, Riyadh as-Saliheen (Beirut: Dar al-Jil, 1985/1405), 448, no. 1615. This tradition was originally transmitted by Imams Muslim, Tirmidhi, Nasa’i, and others.
2 Roger Scruton, A Dictionary of Political Thought (New York, NY: Hill and Wang, 1982), 399.
3 Ibid, 399.
4 Saying this is not to all imply that all of the murder and mayhem that is occurring in Iraq, or that which has occurred in places like Algeria during much of the 1990s can be attributed solely to Muslims. Certainly, a share of such violence can be traced to elements of relevant intelligence agencies in both Iraq and Algeria, or non-Muslim mercenaries, such as the French commandos in Algeria, or
Serbian paramilitary militia members, or former South African death squads, both of which are active in Iraq. However, to deny the role of the ideology of Jihad in that violence is to display an ignorance of the doctrines, proclamations, and history of that the Jihad movement.
5 Abu al-Fida’ Isma’il bin Kathir, Tafsir al-Qur’an al-‘Adhim (Sidon, Beirut: al-Maktaba al-‘Asriyya, 1996/1416), 2:319.
6 Imam Abu Ja’far bin Jarir at-Tabari, Jami’ al-Bayan fi Ta’wil al-Qur’an (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyya, 1997/1418), 6:356, no. 16,660.
7 Imam at-Tabari, 6:356-357, no. 16,662.
8 Imam Jalal ad-Din as-Suyuti, Ad-Durr al-Manthur fi at-Tafsir bi’l-Ma’thur (Beirut: Dar Ihya’ at-Turath al-‘Arabi, 2001/1421), 4:161.
9 See Imam Abu ‘Abdullah Muhammad bin Ahmad al-Qurtubi, al-Jami’ li Ahkam al-Qur’an (Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1987/1407), 8:121.
__________________
"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Qur'an 6:108)
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June 21, 2007, 04:26 AM
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Banned
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Neither ideology nor religion. It is deen- complete code of life.
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June 21, 2007, 05:30 AM
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First Class Cricketer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BD-Shardul
Neither ideology nor religion. It is deen- complete code of life.
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100% agree with it! It is deen and the best religion in the world.
Im nt calling it best coz im Muslim myself. If you listen and understand any Hadeeth it makes sense dat mostly no other religion does! WE JUST DONT FOLLOW IT!!!
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June 21, 2007, 05:35 AM
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for those versed in arabic and the etymology of it, din would be an all encompassing religion, religion as meant by the quran rather than ninian smart classifications.
i would urge you not to 'listen' to hadith or its interpretations. read it for yourself! all of tabari has been translated in many languages including english and much of bukhari is also available.
it might also be an idea to read complete articles before commenting on a small section.
__________________
'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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June 21, 2007, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cricket Crazy
100% agree with it! It is deen and the best religion in the world.
Im nt calling it best coz im Muslim myself. If you listen and understand any Hadeeth it makes sense dat mostly no other religion does! WE JUST DONT FOLLOW IT!!!
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you seem to have contradicted yourself! the poster you quoted stated that islam wasn't a religion but a complete way of life. you agreed with it but then proceeded to state that it is the best religion! surely, it can't be the best religion in the world if you agree with previous statement that refutes its basis as a religion?
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'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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June 21, 2007, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
for those versed in arabic and the etymology of it, din would be an all encompassing religion, religion as meant by the quran rather than ninian smart classifications.
i would urge you not to 'listen' to hadith or its interpretations. read it for yourself! all of tabari has been translated in many languages including english and much of bukhari is also available.
it might also be an idea to read complete articles before commenting on a small section.
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Thank you ...
__________________
"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Qur'an 6:108)
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June 21, 2007, 07:28 AM
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Cricket Legend
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Thank you ...
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you are most welcome! upon rereading my post it does appear that i might have been a little too severe on the original commentator.
i had been working through seven different articles on jamal-al din al-afgani all morning trying to establish whether he really came from afganistian as much of the early 20th century biographies (including wiki-frustration-pedia) stated or from iran as some of the recent scholarship seem to have indicated. frustrated, i came to the forum, discovered your interesting article, copied it to my phone and then trundled down the cafe to read it over a fine blueberry muffin. all was fine until i return to the library and notice that there are two posts and one from a youngster who definitely had not read the article and dared to jump on the bandwagon!
incidentally, i recommended you muhammad abduh in another post. abduh was a disciple of al-afgani, as were all the 19th century reformers from egypt. you might want to do your own research into al-afgani's thoughts as he is not too dissimilar to your views expressed to the few postings i have read here.
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'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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Last edited by Puck; June 21, 2007 at 07:30 AM..
Reason: syntax my son!
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June 21, 2007, 07:36 AM
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Puck-
I am vaguely familiar with Al-Afghani. Your post post has made me want to familiarize myself more.
I am a huge admirer of Imam Zaid Shakir. Please take the time to explore his essays in the enclosed link. I'd love to have a chat or two about a few of those.
BTW, I don't think you were too harsh on the posters at all. The thread is here for all too explore at their own time. BD-Shadrul is a fine young man with his heart in the right place. His expressions will get better and become less "general" in time.
Peace, Sohel.
__________________
"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Qur'an 6:108)
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June 21, 2007, 08:02 AM
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Dr. Zakir naik's lecture on islamic topics worth to watch who havent watch any of them yet.. Click the follwing link..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIdg51woug
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"For those of us climbing to the top of the food chain, there can be no mercy. There is but one rule: hunt or be hunted"-House of Cards
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June 21, 2007, 08:05 AM
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i am pleased that no offence is yet to be taken by my remark, although i shall not start counting my chickens before the eggs have hatched!
this is a general comment about scholarship in islam. while there is a tendency in most muslim families to teach their children how to recite the quran, i feel that such passion would be better employed in teaching them how to read classical arabic. i have met so many who have even memorised the quran without knowing what a word of it means! there is clearly a language barrier. so much of the scholarship in islam had been in arabic, ottoman turkic and in persian. so much of it has survived through the ages despite burning of libraries in mongol invasions. much of it remains to be translated. this is the major problem to a complete and codified scholastic history of islam. i am not saying that such annotated bibliographies do not exist. r stephen humphries did a fine jod in the seventies. however, his work is too scholarly and impossible for the ordinary student to follow without having some knowledge or arabic, persian and ottoman turkish. amongst recent writers, tariq ramadan had also provided short introductions in various publications but there is an obvious bias towards the egyptian school of thought in his writings. what we need is a secular, understandable comprehensive history of all the scholastic schools and movements within islam that is just as understandable to the young muslim as it is to a western scholar.
as such, the young are hardly to blame when they end up reading selected verses from the quran, selected analysis of the hadith or transmissions from only one school of thought without any notion of opposing perspectives.
__________________
'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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June 21, 2007, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
i am pleased that no offence is yet to be taken by my remark, although i shall not start counting my chickens before the eggs have hatched!
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Touché ...
__________________
"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Qur'an 6:108)
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June 21, 2007, 08:31 AM
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Thanks for the link bro, I'm quite familiar with his pedagogy from Q-TV, Peace TV and other "Islamic" TV networks. I find Harun Yahiya more appealing with regards to that general line of work.
Here's a link: http://www.harunyahya.com/
__________________
"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Qur'an 6:108)
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June 21, 2007, 08:57 AM
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i took a brief look at the atlas of creation and its arguments and it seem to offer a really basic and selective refutation of darwinism based on fossil records. it does not even seem to realise the trap their own refuation theory is falling under by looking at fossil evidence from 150 million years ago. personally, sensationalist look scared me off from reading anymore!
should i proceed with caution?
__________________
'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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June 21, 2007, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
i took a brief look at the atlas of creation and its arguments and it seem to offer a really basic and selective refutation of darwinism based on fossil records. it does not even seem to realise the trap their own refuation theory is falling under by looking at fossil evidence from 150 million years ago. personally, sensationalist look scared me off from reading anymore!
should i proceed with caution?
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Always, but bear in mind that Mr. Yahiya can also be surprisingly pedantic in his claims once you dig deeper into his thought process. His analysis of the Human Genome Project in particular is quite impressive from a layman's perspective. I quite enjoy his work, and on several occasions have found his insights to be inspirational. Miracle in the Spider is such a book.
__________________
"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Qur'an 6:108)
Last edited by Sohel; June 21, 2007 at 02:24 PM..
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June 21, 2007, 10:05 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&v=7qIdg51woug
There are total of 30 videos in two pages.
More on Dr. Zakir Naik. May Allah's mercy shower upon him.
__________________
The Weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the Strong." - Gandhi.
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June 21, 2007, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
i took a brief look at the atlas of creation and its arguments and it seem to offer a really basic and selective refutation of darwinism based on fossil records. it does not even seem to realise the trap their own refuation theory is falling under by looking at fossil evidence from 150 million years ago. personally, sensationalist look scared me off from reading anymore!
should i proceed with caution?
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Er, Puck, why were you looking at that tripe?
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June 21, 2007, 12:00 PM
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Cricket Sage
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religion is ideology...now is islam a religion. yes it is, but its more than that. it is a deen i.e. a complete way of life.
but don't all religions claim to be that, and in some way are. i mean hinduisim dictates what a hindu eats, thinks, who he/she can marry etc. so basically all religions are ways of life. some more, some less.
********
but the perhaps the best explanation of what islam is was said by the rasul (saw):
"ad-deenun nasiha"
"the religion of islam is sincere advice"
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June 21, 2007, 02:23 PM
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Puck-
Hope you've had the time to dig deeper into Yahiya's "Creationism". Different from the "Monkey Trial" variety isn't it? Or the Evangelical one for that matter.
I find some of his "extrapolations" off recent data, especially on the subject of fossil records, tough to argue with. Modern science in general and computer technology in particular, are enabling us to see things previously unseen. The idea of "Organic Technology" is no longer just Sci-fi. Mr. Yahiya looks at some of the structures and their functions to conclude that they were deliberately engineered and fabricated, though probably not by a Zeus-like figure up in the skies somewhere.
If we see a coherent sentence such as " I like the BanglaCricket Forum more than I should", we won't think twice about the fact that it was written by a person. Yahiya claims for lack of solid, as opposed to conjectured extrapolation from ancient fossil records, the Darwinian Theory of Evolution is something akin to believing that a bottle of ink just spilled on a piece of paper and "arranged" itself into a coherent sentence such as the one mentioned above.
I think you'll enjoy reading his stuff. It's not what it appears to be at first glance.
Try these links and bear with the words if you can:
http://www.harunyahya.com/definitivereply01.php
http://www.harunyahya.com/creation.php
And my favorite:
http://www.harunyahya.com/themiracleinthespider01.php
shaad -
You are a scientist if I'm not mistaken. I would be very interested in reading your take of some of Yahiya's work on related subjects.
Here's a few links:
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/scie...namiracle1.php
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracle_of_hormones_01.php
http://www.harunyahya.com/immune1.php
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/scie...le_cell_01.php
Bear with the words if you can. IMHO opinion, Mr. Yahiya is not a nutjob.
Peace, Sohel.
PS: Here's the link to his e-books, all available free of charge:
http://www.harunyahya.com/html/m_book_index.htm
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"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Qur'an 6:108)
Last edited by Sohel; June 21, 2007 at 02:32 PM..
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June 21, 2007, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Puck-
Hope you've had the time to dig deeper into Yahiya's "Creationism". Different from the "Monkey Trial" variety isn't it? Or the Evangelical one for that matter.
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your mention of the monkey trial reminded me of the excellent spencer tracy and frederic march film called inherit the wind. directed by stanley kramer this is something of a monochrome masterpiece of religious bigotry, a subject so very contemporary..
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June 21, 2007, 06:59 PM
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I have a lot of respect for SohelNR bhai, but I have to disaggree with him about www.harunyahya.com, especially with regards to its treatment on evolution. The other aspects of the site might be good... I don't know.
In my opinion the articles regarding evolution, rather disproving evolution, are dangerous because it combines general knowledge of Biology with religious propaganda to prove their point. He uses "a little" science to state his point but he does not even try to discuss the real science. He gives virtually no reference to how evolutionary biologists explain those phenomenon. To me this is intellectual dishonesty!
Before, I go any further I would ask you guys to read up on evolution because if you don't understand the theory of evolution then you won't understand the misrepresentation of evolution done by the writers at www.harunyayha.com.
Link to wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
I quoted some important points about evolution here
Quote:
More recently, evidence for common descent has come from the study of biochemical similarities between organisms. For example, all living cells use the same nucleic acids and amino acids.[127] The development of molecular genetics has revealed the record of evolution left in organisms' genomes: dating when species diverged through the molecular clock produced by mutations.[128] For example, these DNA sequence comparisons have revealed the close genetic similarity between humans and chimpanzees and shed light on when the common ancestor of these species existed.[129]
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In addition, if you look at all the human genes that have been discovered so far, you will find an identical or similar genes in chimpanzee... Now, if you look at highly conserved genes (genes that are essential and change very slowly over time) across different plant and animal species, you will observe they have a very high degree of similarity. That's why the idea of common descent makes sense. I don't know how the first cell was created... God might have created it or may be it was created from a soup of very basic cellular elements. But, the fact that evolution takes place is irrefutable and accepted by all scientist who do biological research... there is a famous quote by Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology makes sense except in the light of evoluton".
Now, to refute an article from HarunYahya.com... I was reading the article about the immune system http://www.harunyahya.com/immune1.php.
In the first segment of the article, the author argues that the first human must have had the fully functional immune system, and it must have been created by god because partially developed immune system would not have worked. Evolutionary Biologist would look at this and say that the first human inherited the immune system of the chimpanzee and then modified it gradually with time. We know that immune system of monkeys are very similar to ours because we share many genes that are identical and similar. Only a small fraction of genes are different... and that is what makes us human. I guess another difference is that regulation of genes in humans compared to monkeys. Now, lets go back to the similarity of our immune system to monkeys immune system. Before a new drug is released for human testing, it is usually tested in monkeys first... Drugs are also tested on rats, who is another close evolutionary relative of ours! Are all these organisms created separately, or do they just diverge from a common ancestor...
I don't have too much time at hand so I will just state one more example. here is quote from the artice at harunyahya.
Quote:
Then how is it ever possible that such a small number of genes can produce antibodies about ten times their value? The miracle is revealed at this point. The cell combines the hundred thousand genes it contains in different combinations to form new antibodies. It receives the information from some genes and combines it with the information in other genes and makes the required production according to this combined information.
1,920,000 different antibodies are formed as a result of 5,200 different combinations.4 This process represents a wisdom and planning that are too great for the human mind to comprehend, let alone design.
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This phenamenon where a single gene can produce multiple proteins/antibodies is called gene splicing. This phenomenon is not unique to humans... it can be observed in other plants, animals and insects!!! Interestingly, these phenamenon are studied in simpler organisms such as yeasts (unicellular eukaryotes)... after all you cannot do experiments with humans, atleast legally.
Now, some boring lecture about genes!!! You can think of a gene as a region of DNA which codes for proteins/antibodies... the shape and other biochemical properties of the protein determine its function. Now, within this stretch of DNA, there are sequences which actually codes for the protein and other sequences which are discarded. These small protein coding regions are called exons, and each gene can have multiple exons. Suppose, the cell had a protein which is the size of a cricket bat. You would expect one exon to code for the handle of the cricket bat, one for the bottom of the bat, one for the top and one for the middle. Now, if a cell a wants a smaller cricket bat, it just needs to remove one of the exons or if the cell needs a baseball bat shaped protein, then it needs to make multiple copies of the gene and make random modification to these exons (it's not starting from scratch... it already has the protein code for the handle of the bat). Only the modifications that are helpful to the organism survive by a process of natural selection!!!
We still have a lot to learn in this field... nothing is absolute. But, the theories proposed by the scientists makes sense if you think about it. Scientists are regular people like you and me, they don't have a hidden agenda against any religion. It's best not to mix science and religion together... science is based on facts and logic and religion relies more on faith.
I will try to post more on this thread when I get time. Personally, I don't think belief in evolution conflicts with religious beliefs of Islam, Christianity or other religions... you just need to look at religious text more liberally!
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Last edited by cricket_pagol; June 22, 2007 at 04:40 AM..
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June 21, 2007, 07:15 PM
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Cricket Legend
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Puck-
I find some of his "extrapolations" off recent data, especially on the subject of fossil records, tough to argue with. Modern science in general and computer technology in particular, are enabling us to see things previously unseen. The idea of "Organic Technology" is no longer just Sci-fi. Mr. Yahiya looks at some of the structures and their functions to conclude that they were deliberately engineered and fabricated, though probably not by a Zeus-like figure up in the skies somewhere.
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on the contrary this is a very selective reading indeed and the fossil record have very little geological basis since he hardly provides detailed differenciation of species in this context. it isn't really a scientific analysis.
elements of darwinism which is over 200 years old, has been reinterpreted in light of new scientific techniques. none of these new interpretations are in anyway dependent on the various religious arguments put forward for the last two centuries.
i remain to be convinced that the world is only 4000 years old as some of the creationists had suggested. at this this chap gives us a slightly longer timeframe!
it is my personal belief that many islamists argue for or against these positions as it would forward their positions within the ulema. the real issues are still mass poverty and social injustice amongst the muslim people and more worth lecturing on.
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'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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June 21, 2007, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaad
Er, Puck, why were you looking at that tripe?
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if you care for such things as my reassurance, you'd be pleased to know that eventually i gave up. the look of the website is trite and totally unconvincing. if he wants to be taken seriously then at least a scholarly website would be a start.
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'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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June 21, 2007, 07:53 PM
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Cricket Guru
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Shaad: You ought to look up the meaning for "humility". Yes, we know you're a scientist- so we have been told.
Puck: "scholarly website"- you could try to delve beyond the appearance. It just might be worth it!
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June 21, 2007, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Shaad:
Puck: "scholarly website"- you could try to delve beyond the appearance. It just might be worth it!
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your criticism is truly valid as my comment was perhaps a little flippant. the website does have a sensational element about it. i read through the short ariticles and his proofs of creationism and the style of presententaion was less than scholarly.
i take your criticism ernerstly, however, there wasn't much that convilved me i am afraid. however, i shall give it a more serious consideration over the weekend.
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'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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June 21, 2007, 09:47 PM
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Cricket Guru
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Sohel NR,
Thanks for the article by Ustad Zaid Shakir. Its a well written and aptly-timed article too. Hope many will benefit from this discourse.
I had the pleasure of studying with Zaid Shakir and Nuh Ha Mim Keller in Damascus. In sha allah, hope to continue with my study again!
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