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  #1  
Old August 8, 2007, 03:43 PM
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Thumbs down Dutch MP calls for ban on Quran

Al Jazeera link: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...7702C354C1.htm

The article (sorry MODS, had to do this with something that deserves its own thread)-

Quote:
Dutch MP calls for ban on Quran

A Dutch member of parliament has called for the Quran to be banned in the Netherlands, describing it as a "fascist book" which calls on people to kill non-believers and rape women.

Geert Wilders, leader of the far-right Freedom Party, called for the ban in a letter published in De Volkskrant newspaper.

In his letter, Wilders compares the Muslim holy book to Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler's autobiography, and said the Quran has "no place in our constitutional state".

"I have been saying this for years: there is no such thing as a moderate Islam," Wilders wrote.

Wilders' Freedom Party holds nine seats in the Netherlands' 150 seat parliament.

Call for ban

Wilders also said several chapters in the Quran "call on Muslims to oppress, persecute or kill Christians, Jews, dissidents and non-believers, to beat and rape women and to establish an Islamic state by force".

The publication of the letter comes after a weekend attack on Eshan Jami, a young Dutch politician, who established a group to support people who have renounced Islam.

Jami, who was not visibly injured in the attack, is now under police protection as is Wilders.

"Ban this wretched book like Mein Kampf is banned! Send a signal to Jami's attackers and other Islamic radicals that the Quran cannot be used in the Netherlands as an inspiration or an excuse for violence," Wilders said.

Wilders acknowledged that his plan would not receive majority support in the Dutch parliament.

"I am fed up with Islam in the Netherlands: no more Muslim immigrants allowed. I am fed up with the worship of Allah and Muhammad in the Netherlands: no more mosques," his letter concluded.
Crypto-fascism and assigning collective guilt still alive and well in liberal Europe. Muslims, the Jews of this century?

Eagerly awaiting Puck and P. Warner's posts ...
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Last edited by Sohel; August 8, 2007 at 03:49 PM..
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  #2  
Old August 8, 2007, 03:50 PM
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WTF he seriously hasnt read the Quran if he is saying that. He shud read it b4 he assumes crap like that, []!!!!!
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Last edited by ammark; August 8, 2007 at 03:54 PM.. Reason: mod.content: language
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  #3  
Old August 8, 2007, 03:50 PM
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This guy is funny send him to zoo where he belongs... can we make him read The Quran first? he is so illiterate on this and his comments shows...
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  #4  
Old August 8, 2007, 04:04 PM
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This is good actually. This would make sure many of the dutch parlament member read the Quran. If not the media would. if not the dutch normal population would. God works in misterious ways. No one can win this battle. Cause the Almighty is protecting it. We can just sit back and watch the circus.
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Old August 8, 2007, 04:16 PM
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I feel pretty much the same way about the Quran, but I'd never agree on banning any book... not even Mein Kampf.
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  #6  
Old August 8, 2007, 04:20 PM
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Well, yes, Islamophobia is alive and well, and often plays well in the European political arena, where Turkish migrant workers and the possibility of Turkey joining the EU give rise to deep feelings of insecurity among the less well-off Europeans. In some ways it is quite reminiscent of the hatemongering by the BNP (the British National Party) in England in the 80s.

It's actually quite ironic that Wilders tries to draw parallels between Islam and fascism, and between the Quran and Mein Kampf, since he seems to be using what is essentially the Nazi party playbook for propaganda and support: demonizing a particular group, and labelling it responsible for all the ills of his society.

Mind you, violent Muslims like the ones who attacked Jami, or the Islamist who mudered the Dutch film director Theo van Gogh, aren't helping the image of Islam in the Netherlands or Europe either.
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Old August 8, 2007, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaad
Well, yes, Islamophobia is alive and well, and often plays well in the European political arena, where Turkish migrant workers and the possibility of Turkey joining the EU give rise to deep feelings of insecurity among the less well-off Europeans. In some ways it is quite reminiscent of the hatemongering by the BNP (the British National Party) in England in the 80s.

It's actually quite ironic that Wilders tries to draw parallels between Islam and fascism, and between the Quran and Mein Kampf, since he seems to be using what is essentially the Nazi party playbook for propaganda and support: demonizing a particular group, and labelling it responsible for all the ills of his society.

Mind you, violent Muslims like the ones who attacked Jami, or the Islamist who mudered the Dutch film director Theo van Gogh, aren't helping the image of Islam in the Netherlands or Europe either.
Al Quaeda blasphemers and all other Islamo-fascists are to Islam, what the KKK is to Christianity.
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Old August 8, 2007, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Al Quaeda blasphemers and all other Islamo-fascists are to Islam, what the KKK is to Christianity.
I agree -- you know it, I know it, I imagine all the readers of this forum know it; the problem, however, is that (thanks to media spin) that is the only "face" of Islam that many in the West ever see.
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  #9  
Old August 8, 2007, 04:57 PM
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What's up with so much Dutch Islamophobia lately? Not getting enough attention or something? It seems anti-Islamic remarks is the way to spice things up for some people, from knighthood to media publicity and whatnot. I just Googled this news, it's only getting picked up by mostly small time news sites, with Al-Jazeera being the exception. So nobody seems to care what he thinks. Seriously, who elected this guy as an MP! It's so obvious he's baiting for retaliation from angry Muslims. I'll be gobsmacked if this gets branded with "freedom of speech" and he's not tried for hate speech.
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  #10  
Old August 8, 2007, 05:26 PM
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Them trolls sure are everywhere ...
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  #11  
Old August 8, 2007, 06:12 PM
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nothing will beat tom tancredo of "lets nuke mecca" fame...lol
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  #12  
Old August 8, 2007, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatebreed
What's up with so much Dutch Islamophobia lately?
ayaan hirsi ali.

a woman (and i use the term loosely to describe her) who thinks that cliterodectomy is a part of islam simply because her grandmother had her done when she was young. by that [il]logic, islam also sanctions posting on BC because many muslims do it every single day. in fact there are more posts on BC, then genital mutilations in the muslim world.
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  #13  
Old August 8, 2007, 06:32 PM
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They're adding fuel to the fire and asking for more, rest assured they'll get it.
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  #14  
Old August 8, 2007, 07:48 PM
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Default The Advanced Arguments Against Islam

Most of the neo-cons that bash Islam and/or Muslims have little knowledge about anything relevant to the topics at hand. However, there are select few armed with an abundance of biggoted knowledge. Here is some of what they say, and the debunking of it. Further one need not embrace theological sticky points to disprove these seemingly crafty lies against Islam (e.g. Allah is good, thus Islam is good).

1) Islam is a violent religion which preaches hatred of non-Muslims

Imagine trying to convert a vast array of desert Arabs - who are all non-Muslims - by telling them that they are vile creatures worthy of nothing less than death. A great many converts you can make that way, eh?

I can just imagine Abu Bakr (RA) converting to Islam with joy when his best friend from childhood, Muhammad (SAW), informs him that as a pagan, he is the vilest of things on this planet.

2) Well Islam started off peaceful, and then turned violent

If Muhammad was such a brutal ideologue, why bother to put on a show? Why not embrace war-mongering from the very get go?

3) Because he had to gain converts and strength peacefully before he could start his offensive

Muhammad was always in a position of relative weakness, and thus any assertion that he waited to gain power before becoming violent is ridiculous. Conventional neo-con arguments attest that Muhammad fled Mecca for Medina and then attacked the pagan Meccans. But one forgets that by attacking pagan Mecca, Muhammad would also be declaring war against the rest of Arabia which was all pagan at the time. Being surrounded by enemies is exactly one of the hallmarks of relative strength.

4) But Muhammad was a pedophile

Because he married Aisha (RA) at 6 and consummated the marriage at 9. Source please? The Quran certainly doesn't say that, and even if it did, so what? Islamic scriptures say many things, all of which the non believer brushes off as un-true. Suddenly the pedophile issue is the ONLY true thing recorded in scripture?

Thats quite convenient, don't you think?

5) Muhammad was a licentious fake

Again the rebuttal of #4 above applies. But even if it didn't, lets go over some things.

Who was Muhammad first wife? How old was she? How old was he when he married her? And who were the co-wives he had with her during their marriage? Btw, how long were they married?

Muhammad's first wife Khadija (RA) was 40 years old, and he married her when he was 25. They were married for over 20 years, during which time he had no other wives.

Does that sound like a sexaholic to you?
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  #15  
Old August 9, 2007, 03:29 AM
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well. we now know what the effects of having Weed and other drugs made legal in Holland are having on people!!!
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Old August 9, 2007, 04:06 AM
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Bengaliprince's response is the best one so far
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  #17  
Old August 9, 2007, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengaliprince176
well. we now know what the effects of having Weed and other drugs made legal in Holland are having on people!!!
Spot on there mate
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Old August 9, 2007, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR

Crypto-fascism and assigning collective guilt still alive and well in liberal Europe. Muslims, the Jews of this century?

Eagerly awaiting Puck and P. Warner's posts ...
pelham warner would not be posting here for a while as he is recovering from a serious fall. a few weeks ago he fell down the stairs at home. three ribs were broken and his doctor has recommended complete rest for a few months. it is not life threatning but at his age any such injuries take that much longer to recover from. when i last rang him on sunday evening, he was still finding it difficult to sit down. he is able to sleep on one side and walking around is relatively painless, but chairs are out of the question!
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Old August 9, 2007, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
pelham warner would not be posting here for a while as he is recovering from a serious fall. a few weeks ago he fell down the stairs at home. three ribs were broken and his doctor has recommended complete rest for a few months. it is not life threatning but at his age any such injuries take that much longer to recover from. when i last rang him on sunday evening, he was still finding it difficult to sit down. he is able to sleep on one side and walking around is relatively painless, but chairs are out of the question!
Really saddened by the news. Hope he will recover fully with time. My prayers are with him.
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Old August 9, 2007, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
pelham warner would not be posting here for a while as he is recovering from a serious fall. a few weeks ago he fell down the stairs at home. three ribs were broken and his doctor has recommended complete rest for a few months. it is not life threatning but at his age any such injuries take that much longer to recover from. when i last rang him on sunday evening, he was still finding it difficult to sit down. he is able to sleep on one side and walking around is relatively painless, but chairs are out of the question!

that is sad... hope he recovers fast.
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Old August 9, 2007, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
pelham warner would not be posting here for a while as he is recovering from a serious fall. a few weeks ago he fell down the stairs at home. three ribs were broken and his doctor has recommended complete rest for a few months. it is not life threatning but at his age any such injuries take that much longer to recover from. when i last rang him on sunday evening, he was still finding it difficult to sit down. he is able to sleep on one side and walking around is relatively painless, but chairs are out of the question!
Hope he recovers quick Inshallah.
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Old August 9, 2007, 08:44 AM
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I hope this guy rants more....because after he dies he will have his a$$ kicked big time.

Btw, thats him if you are wondering what he looks like


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Old August 9, 2007, 09:23 AM
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Puck,
Next time you talk to Mr. Pelham, convey our prayers for him. May he get well ASAP.
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Old August 9, 2007, 09:44 AM
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I was thinking about P Warner yesterday after seeing this thread. Puck, please tell him that we are wishing him all the best, and are looking forward to his posts.

Frankly speaking, I don't even like participating in this discussion. It's not because of this thread or anything. It's just because, I hate it when people disrespect others' religion and try to make a living out of it. Civilization has not had any effect on these people, and they should just rot in their garbage can.

Just like Bengaliprince said, it's probably not civilization, it's probably over dosage of weed and cocaine.
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Old August 9, 2007, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Al Jazeera link:

Crypto-fascism and assigning collective guilt still alive and well in liberal Europe. Muslims, the Jews of this century?

Eagerly awaiting Puck and P. Warner's posts ...
i want to respond to it in two ways. firstly, i want to hint at the clash of civilisation debate which also incorporates whether religion is a culture. secondly, i want to discuss the element of islamic creed and the formation of islamic scholarship. since my knowledge of arabic grammar is nowhere near as commanding as you or perhaps pelham, i shall concentrate more on the evolution of islamic creed and its subsequent influence on shaping the lives of present day muslims, as well as fuelling the fundamentalist cause.

i am afraid this geert wilder controversy is rather old news and perhaps as old as islamophobia itself! akbar ahmed, in his 2004 book 'islam under seige' viewed the 21st century as one where battle prevails between the inclusivist and the exclusivist. the problem isn't just islamic fundamentalism or islamophobia. those are mere glosses on two extremist groups on both sides, and theirs' is a clash of fundamentalisms, as tariq ali expressed in 2001. both parties, in this case the dutch far right and their opposition, the islamic fundamentalists are engaged in a struggle that utilises vselective reading and personally motivated interpretations of the quran. in the case of the latter, i see their efforts as bida (innovation) which is totally forbidden in islam.

american right wing political scientist samuel huntington coined a phrase, 'the clash of civilisation' in 1993. soon it became an academic and intellectual debate. the theory was that after the fall of the iron curtain, the next battle to shape the history of the planet would be one between civilisations. he identified the muslims as one of those civilisations alongside the confucians, black africans etc. many islamists like roy mottadeh and edward said offered rebuttals in the shape of pointing out the varying geographical, cultural and social differences that is prevalent in the muslim world. it isn't that the world lacked fanatics in 1993 but the term islamic fundamentalism had still not taken shape to its fully utilised form as we have at present.

the publication of the satanic verses in the late 1980's was a major impetus in the formation of the present form of fundamentalist, political islam. it raised consciousness within the western minds of a sleeping immigrant culture expressed through the vehicle of religion. it isn't that there were no pan-muslim islamic groups before 1988 covering the entire diasphora, but there had not been a universal cause to defend a certain image of islam since the 11th century. the secularisation of turkey in the 1920's and the declaration of the islamic republic of iran might have sent out shockwaves that rippled through the islamic world, but there were no concrete effects of polarisation.

the crucial difference in the new consciousness was that there had already been an intellectual ideology to draw breath from. i am not referring to the works of mawdudi on tahtawi here but the more rebel rousing anti-colonialist sentiments expressed by intellectuals such rashid rida and sayyid qutub. qutub, executed by the egyptian government in 1966, it is argued by some islamists, is the intellectual idelogue of al-zawahiri and bin-laden. his vitriolic but flowery prose that detested all that the west stood for inspired the muslim brotherhood of its time. interestingly, qutub's early letters home from united states talked of how the length of the white girl's skirt show up 'too much temptation', and how the jazz music of the negroid race was the incarnation of the devil himself, a reminder or primitive junglionics of the black african!

if qutub had served the intellectual deathblow to islam modernising itself and learning to live alongside other religions without instigating an armed jihad, the harmoniser of anti-western dissent sprouts out in the later works of rashid rida. his early works were all about following on the islamic reform movement and still having some faith in the goodness of the colonial powers. surely, the philosophical enlightenment had made the white man good and just! it would be prudent to assume that the failure of pan-arabism and western powers failing to live upto its promises made to the arabs, had fundamentally changed the intellectual compass of rida.

rida was a major figure in the latter day evolution of the islamic reform movement in the early years of 20th century. he was a disciple of muhammad abduh and al-afgani. both al-afgani and abduh had proposed a a return to salaf in the middle and latter part of the 19th century but their salafism was more an intellectual expression. they instilled the element of ijtihad (interpretation) of the classical sources of islam, the quran and parts of the hadith literature. reason and a firm belief in freewill, they asserted, would be the guiding force for a new islamic revival. while al-afgani was totally anti-british, he wasn't anti western erudition, philosophy and technology. he read the works of voltaire, rousseau and the young hegelians. however, he didn't see himself as a philosopher but more as a reformer like martin luther had been in the shape of protestantism. there was certainly no mention of armed uprisings in the works of abduh either. he's vengence fell on centuries of superstition, sufism and what he saw as a lack of tawhid (oneness of god) expressed through the veneration of divine imams in shi'ism.

the 19th century reform movement that swept through the islamic world was expressed in various political, religious and intellectual forms in different parts of the world. in india, it consisted of islamic scholars such as sayyid ahamad khan (1817-98), siddiq hasan khan (d.1888), shibli nu'mani (1857-1917) and the movement called nadwatul ulama. in indonesia the inspiration came from jam'iyya muhammadiyya and in iran muhammas husayn na'ini (1860-1936). in algeria, a slightly more rural movement comprised of the jam'iyyat al ulama, with the ulamas being abd al-hamid b. badis (1889-1940), tayyib al-uqbi (1888-1962) and muhammad al bashir al ibrahim (1889-1965). also in the magrib, in tunisia abd al aziz al-thaalibi (1875-1944) and muhammad al tahir b. ashur (1879-1914) provided the main impetus. from damascus and bagdad were similar echoes of reform expressed by jamal al-din as qaisimi (1866-1914), tahiral-jazairi (1852-1920) and mahmud shukri al-alusi (1857-1924). however, perhaps the most important and widely written about figures came from cairo, muhammad abduh (1849-1905) and muhhamad rasid rida (1865-1935). the striking similarity between all these islamic intellectuals is that very few, if any came from the traditional turkik, arabic and persian traditional clerical backgrounds. they were essentially, intellectuals and inspired by al-afgani.

muhammad abduh and rashid rida were salafists. wahabism had swept through northern arabia a hundred years earlier through the efforts of abdul wahab. salafism is very similar to wahabism in that it preaches a simple form of islam, a return to the salaf (first three generation of muslims) and abandonment of the sufi teachings as well as veneration of the dead and ancestors; this would lead to the true, tawhid based islam. in this interpretation, man was put on earth by the creator, instilled with freewill and the faculties to use reason. thus man was expected to utilise reason and his power of interpretation to make his life on earth. the quran and the hadith would be a guide for the muslim man.

this is certainly not a novel concept in islam. the formation of the four main islamic creeds between 8th and 9th centuries had utilised these elements of philosophy at least a millennium earlier. the four main creeds being, hanafite based on the school of thought inspired by abu hanifa (d.767), malikite, inspired by malik ibn anas, shafiite byt al shafi, and lastly, hanbalite, which was a school that drew its name a 100 years after the death of ahmad ibn hambal (750-850). while some of ideologies of these creeds converge on certain aspect of islamic fiqh (law), the creeds are better defined by their geographical and intellectual differences. in terms of the geographical aspect, the present realm of these schools are as follows: maliki school had influenced all of muslim africa apart from egypt, shafi school has its followers in eastern arabian countries as well as south and south east asia, hanafi school has its adherents in turkey, central asia and indian subcontinent and lastly, the hanbali school is essentially followed in saudi arabia.

the hanafiite restricted faith to its intellectual aspect. this consists of professing with the tongue, accounting the truth with the mind and knowing with the heart. it is interesting to note that both the hanafi and hanbali creeds had ocassionally delved into the 8th and 9th century mutazilite view that quran is created, meaning that it is not divine. the political implication of this was that the abbasid kaliph is somewhat divinely-inspired and could interpret and create laws governing his subjects! ahmad ibn hanbal was one of the very few who refused to believe that the quran was created.

this golden age of islam is also defined by a rival intellectual movement, that of 'kalam' (philosophical or rational theology based on the ancient greek philosophical methods). al-ash'ari (873-935) took a prominent part in the development of kalam. while he started out as a mutazilite, he ended up as hanbalite, thus emphasising how fluid these creeds would have been. hanbalite school had always been opposed to kalam! this age also saw the greatest of greek thought inspired muslim philosophers (al-kindi (800-70), al farabi (875-950) and ibn sina (980-1037). these philosophers were somewhat neo-platonic in their ideas. the greatest of muslim philosopher was ibn rushd (1126-98), known as averoes in the west, who was an aristotelian and came from al-andalus. while averoes is the only philosopher whose ideas did not inspire a school to take up the thought process after his death within the islamic world, there were numerous neo-averoen philosophers in the 15th and 16th century europe.

the deathblow to kalam within islam comes from al-ghazali (1058-1111). he felt that the philosophers' views and arguments were having an unsettling effect on the educated muslims. this critique of the philosophers is called the 'inconsistency of the philosophers', in which he drew attention to 20 points, where he regarded the teaching to be contradictory to islam. 3 of the most important points being that, philosophers had propounded that ressurection was restricted to the soul and didn't include a body, god only knew universals and not particulars, and lastly, a denial of the doctrine of creation by stating the eternity of the world. al-ghazali was quite wellknown in the west as his works had been translated in the west and was read by later catholics as a rebuttal of god-denying philosophy. while al-ghazali did deliver something of a deathblow to the notion of kalam and a greater discusion of the essence of being muslim, there were other problems plaguing the muslim world at this period. phases of mongol and turkic invasions had dismantled the core principles of caliphate and with it ended the golden age of islamic thought.

it would be the next generation of theosophers who would shape the future of islam and ultimately, the violent fundamentalist forms. hanbalite theology was essentially opposed to kalam. its most important representative was ibn taymiya (1263-1328) who wanted to purify islam of the kalam, mutazilite and ashari influence. two centuries later, we see the emergence of walliullah dihlawi in india and abd al wahab in arabia, both, heavily drawing on the ideas of taymiyya. this purification went through the reform movement shaped by the likes of muhammad abduh, and as a direct result of arab nationalism, pan-arabism and western powers failing to deliver on certain promises, eventually leads to the radicalism of sayyid qutub.

when mirza abu talib khan (1798-1803), an indian of perso-turkish background became the first muslim to visit europe as a visitor, many aristocrats were surpsied by how amiable and intelligent he was. of course, talib khan was an envoy of the mughal emperor and himself of aristocratic descent. since then, there have been migrations to europe for ecomnomic and academic reasons by millions of muslims. the last major wave of migration was just after the second world war that lasted to the early 1970's. the majority of these muslims were not visitors but they wanted to make something of their lives out of the ravages of colonialism. since the majority of the emmigrants were coming from rural parts of the muslim world, their only connection with islam would have been through the local mosque and traditions passed through generations.

these traditions shaped european islam to something more unique. this would later be felt rather differently by the offsprings of the original immigrants. detached from the social framework that shaped the islamic beliefs of the first generation in their villages, the new generation wanted to renew their islamic connection through any way they could. this, i am afraid had led to an extreme interpretaion of the scriptures by some sections of the islamic youth. they might well have some command of arabic, they might well be using the internet, and television stations like al-jazeera to get their facts, but ultimately, their readings and understanding of islam lacks the cultural cohesiveness and spirit of inclusion that had shaped the history of islam. that islam wasn't spread at the point of a sword but more through the mystical tradition of sufism is little understood by these fundamentalists or their opponent, geert wilders.
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the above is a conversational account of state of affairs and how fundamentalism came into islam based on my academic research and some of my published papers. if anyone is interested, i would be happy to post my bibliography, however, there are around 25 publications there, so ask at your own peril. while i typed all of the above based on my research, the dates have been checked throughly!
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