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  #26  
Old January 15, 2008, 12:01 PM
samircreep samircreep is offline
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A couple of points:

In almost all the examples of lousy footwork cited above, you have to consider the previous deliveries and overs. Aside from Vettori, there were no outstanding kiwi bowlers. And yet what they really did successfully was to play with BD batsmen's minds. Take Kyle Mills for example. He would bowl 5 deliveries on good length slanting across the left hander while the sixth one would be short of good length or pitched up coming. The bowler on the other end would take over Mills and employ the same strategy at exactly the same point (and this is important) where Mills left over. My point is particular deliveries dont necessarily get batsmen out, it's more of a case of a series of deliveries and overs.

As a segue, Kiwi strategy also highlights our batsmen's main problem which is not footwork per se (i'm not saying its not a problem, it's just not the biggest problem) but poor anticipation skills. I've been watching BD cricket for 15 years now and at best our batsmen decide on the delivery as it is pitched. If you have great hand eye coordination (like shumon used to have), or playing on docile pitches, you can get away with it most of the time. Otherwise, if you have higher aspirations, you have to read the bowler's mind. Miandad was a great exponent of out thinking the bowler, he was always two steps ahead.

BD batsmen do have decent footwork players. Ash is technically very sound. The problem is we either get stuck in the block block block hit mentality no matter who or what is being bowled at us, or we simply do not think. Technique is obviously important, but to be a good test batsman, you have to outfox the bowler at every stage, esp at this level.
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  #27  
Old January 15, 2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samircreep
A couple of points:

In almost all the examples of lousy footwork cited above, you have to consider the previous deliveries and overs. Aside from Vettori, there were no outstanding kiwi bowlers. And yet what they really did successfully was to play with BD batsmen's minds. Take Kyle Mills for example. He would bowl 5 deliveries on good length slanting across the left hander while the sixth one would be short of good length or pitched up coming. The bowler on the other end would take over Mills and employ the same strategy at exactly the same point (and this is important) where Mills left over. My point is particular deliveries dont necessarily get batsmen out, it's more of a case of a series of deliveries and overs.

As a segue, Kiwi strategy also highlights our batsmen's main problem which is not footwork per se (i'm not saying its not a problem, it's just not the biggest problem) but poor anticipation skills. I've been watching BD cricket for 15 years now and at best our batsmen decide on the delivery as it is pitched. If you have great hand eye coordination (like shumon used to have), or playing on docile pitches, you can get away with it most of the time. Otherwise, if you have higher aspirations, you have to read the bowler's mind. Miandad was a great exponent of out thinking the bowler, he was always two steps ahead.

BD batsmen do have decent footwork players. Ash is technically very sound. The problem is we either get stuck in the block block block hit mentality no matter who or what is being bowled at us, or we simply do not think. Technique is obviously important, but to be a good test batsman, you have to outfox the bowler at every stage, esp at this level.
When i saw your name i knew some thing good is coming. This is exactly i wanted to type. Its not the footwork its the knowledge of the game that they lack more. Its a chess game and bd players don't know the history of the game and how its played so they can't counter the ops moves. When players grow up following player like Tendu and lara then you know you are in big trouble cause those two had different level of skills. I have yet to see any BD player say i like the style of miandad or crowe or some one like them who used to toy with ops bowlers mind...
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  #28  
Old January 15, 2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djnaved
masrafee and shahdat are much better batsman than our middle order batsman. Atleast, these two guys stayed at the crease half-an hour and wait for the bad ball
razzak a MUCH better batsman aswell
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  #29  
Old January 15, 2008, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaad
Basically, when I started playing as a kid, unless there was a knowledgable relative (I was fortunate with my uncles and cousins) who taught one the basics such as footwork, one simply didn't develop them. And the bad habits continued with the ones that became professional; yes, they often had the eyes and reflexes to score despite such poor basics, but such a handicap can only take you so far.

Tournaments like Nirman School Cricket are after my time. I presume the schoolkids now get the benefit of a decent coach (we did have Dipu Roy Choudhury as a nominal coach/"games teacher", but I don't recall him ever doing any coaching), and that we will eventually have a generation of young players coming into the clubs and the national team who have solid basics.
Bro, did you play in the CCS club in dhanmondi? Dipu Chowdhuri is the head coach. I used to have him, but he teaches only his favorite players. His secretery coach is Ranjit.. He is a damn good coach. He used to teach me especially about the footwork problem. Then I got improved.
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  #30  
Old January 15, 2008, 02:09 PM
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Samircreep almost nailed it. I too don't think it's as simple as our batters don't have footwork. And to your point Shaad, most of those who are in the side now have had access to coaching ('cept for Bashar) so lack of instruction isn't it either. The key problem is an inability to decide whether to go forward or backward. If you have for all your life grown up to "if it's good length, I go forward and ball will hit the middle", then I guess it's hard for some of them to make the adjustment to bouncier pitches where good length means either go back or take a very very long stride forward. And yes, this indecision is also fostered by the bowling plan that NZ executed. Keep it in the corridor of uncertainty and play on the batsmen's lack of patience.
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  #31  
Old January 15, 2008, 03:51 PM
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Pegging away at a consistent line is a strategy if u want to eat away at a batsman's patience, which shouldn't be a threat at the test level but obviously is for our inept batsmen. but to really baffle the footwork of a batsmen, you have to keep the guy guessing by mixing your length and angle. Two great (slightly old) exponents of this artifice, would be the Kiwi Simoun Doul and Brian Macmillan of SA. Neither had great pace of any kind. But every delivery they would bowl would be at slightly different pace and variations of length and a hint (not prodigious, which is actually bad for this kind of bowling) of swing. And of course both bowlers had amazing slippers (perhaps the world's best at that time) to back them up, a fact that is greatly underestimated.

A note in defence of Bashar: you cannot blame a guy for lacking something he never had. Bashar never was a technically correct player. He is, in the moulds of shewag, laxman and our own shariar nafees a *touch* player: amazing hand eye coordination and picking up the length very early. The problem is bashar's eye has gone, just like shewags. u can see it in his fielding too, he spots the ball late and cant pick up the length anymore. unfortunately once a touch player loses it, it takes time for it to come back, something which he doesnt have on his side.
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  #32  
Old January 15, 2008, 04:43 PM
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spot on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samircreep

As a segue, Kiwi strategy also highlights our batsmen's main problem which is not footwork per se (i'm not saying its not a problem, it's just not the biggest problem) but poor anticipation skills. I've been watching BD cricket for 15 years now and at best our batsmen decide on the delivery as it is pitched. If you have great hand eye coordination (like shumon used to have), or playing on docile pitches, you can get away with it most of the time. Otherwise, if you have higher aspirations, you have to read the bowler's mind. Miandad was a great exponent of out thinking the bowler, he was always two steps ahead.
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  #33  
Old January 15, 2008, 05:02 PM
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Samircreep and akabir, good and valid points.

RazabQ, I agree. If you look upstream, you'll note that I mentioned being optimistic about the current generation of cricketers because they have had coaching.

djnaved, back in the late 70s Dipu used to be the coach/games teacher for Maple Leaf. That's where our experience with him comes from. Mind you, I'm not blaming him. Keeping a rabble of "entitled" kids under control at the Abahani Field didn't really provide much time for one-on-one coaching.
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  #34  
Old January 15, 2008, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabir
Footwork is overrated. I suggest, jhaata-work.
Agree 100%. Jhaata-work is the way to go in modern day cricket. Copy book days are long gone. JO has been well ahead of his age!

While at it, actually wrist-work is more important. I mean, if Bashar (in the Tests) can flick a delivery which is a foot outside the off-stump to square leg for four- who needs footwork! Its simply wasting precious energy. Our players are very judicious in conserving stamina as every each one of them usually buckles down to bat for days! When you have talent as such; you dont need footwork.

Soon Aussies will catch up, though. Our glory days are numbered.
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  #35  
Old January 16, 2008, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaad
The point I am trying to make, and you seem rather oblivious to, is that not every lad playing cricket in Bangladesh is like you, and that many of these lads make it into the professional circuit and and in some cases, the national team. No one is denying that you are talented or that you have a good understanding of the game (though, mind you, we've only got your word for it; we haven't actually seen you play); the point is that most kids might not have your inherent understanding or appreciation of footwork simply from watching television, and do require coaching to develop decent basics. How else would you explain what appears to be terrible footwork by some members of our national team?
Your point makes perfect sense and I totally agree with it. Players who haven't yet gained the basic skills and knowledge of the game do make it in to the Bangladesh team. However what I'm trying to say here is that you don't need to be severely talented in order to get basic aspects of cricket into your game. It's a matter of practicing and learning. I really wouldn't say that my foot work is a result of talent. It's how you manage to use it in game situations where the ball swings, bounces unevenly etc, that determines the talented from those who aren't as talented.
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  #36  
Old January 16, 2008, 03:29 AM
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I dont understand HOW you can make ANY runs at all without footwork..

Especially on BD style pitches..

Maybe it's a mental thing?
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  #37  
Old January 16, 2008, 03:34 AM
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Jkrulz - I have to conclude that a) you haven't played much cricket and b) you definitely have not played in BD style pitches.

Please re-read some of the stuff posted above
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  #38  
Old January 16, 2008, 03:41 AM
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I've played cricket for about ten years actually. Five years at an competitive level.

Used to average about five without footwork, now about thirty with footwork.

Yeah I admit I haven't played on BD pitches, but I'm guessing if I average five on AUS pitches, I'd be averaging less on BD.

Am I wrong?
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  #39  
Old January 16, 2008, 12:48 PM
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Bangladeshi Batsmen and footwork are mutually exclusive
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  #40  
Old January 16, 2008, 05:16 PM
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jK my buddy, if you are averaging double digits in bouncy pitches against arguably better bowling, then you should do very nicely in BD. Just stick your front feed down the ground on anything that's not a half-tracker and drive through the line. It won't deviate much off the seam and it won't rise high enough to hit the splice

BD pitches are slow and low. If they have been allowed to cure for a bit (i.e. watered, rolled and unused) then they can get skiddy. And if it's really dry, expect a few "grubbers".
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  #41  
Old January 16, 2008, 05:16 PM
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i see fazal is back - WB Kotter ...
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  #42  
Old January 16, 2008, 10:24 PM
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And according to BDNEWS the reason is negligence towards building strong A-team.
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  #43  
Old January 16, 2008, 10:45 PM
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Razab bhai, our younger players have had coaching, but the question is what quality coaching have they had?
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  #44  
Old January 16, 2008, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samircreep
A couple of points:

In almost all the examples of lousy footwork cited above, you have to consider the previous deliveries and overs. Aside from Vettori, there were no outstanding kiwi bowlers. And yet what they really did successfully was to play with BD batsmen's minds. Take Kyle Mills for example. He would bowl 5 deliveries on good length slanting across the left hander while the sixth one would be short of good length or pitched up coming. The bowler on the other end would take over Mills and employ the same strategy at exactly the same point (and this is important) where Mills left over. My point is particular deliveries dont necessarily get batsmen out, it's more of a case of a series of deliveries and overs.

As a segue, Kiwi strategy also highlights our batsmen's main problem which is not footwork per se (i'm not saying its not a problem, it's just not the biggest problem) but poor anticipation skills. I've been watching BD cricket for 15 years now and at best our batsmen decide on the delivery as it is pitched. If you have great hand eye coordination (like shumon used to have), or playing on docile pitches, you can get away with it most of the time. Otherwise, if you have higher aspirations, you have to read the bowler's mind. Miandad was a great exponent of out thinking the bowler, he was always two steps ahead.

BD batsmen do have decent footwork players. Ash is technically very sound. The problem is we either get stuck in the block block block hit mentality no matter who or what is being bowled at us, or we simply do not think. Technique is obviously important, but to be a good test batsman, you have to outfox the bowler at every stage, esp at this level.
You are on to something here. While technique, temperament, footwork, ability to play strokes all around the wkt. etc , are all important factors for becoming a very good batsman, he must also be a student of the game, and should be able to anticipate what the bowler is thinking if he wants to become a top notch intl class batsman. For that to happen, the bowlers have to be thinking bowlers as well, who actually plans his mode of deliveries against a specific batsman. Thinking bowlers will breed thinking batsmen. On top of that, the bowler must have the discipline to bowl within his plan. Thats means he can't have two loose deliveries every over. Given the quality of bowlers in our domestic circuit, I doubt, our batsmen can develop any anticipation skills. They will just send those two bad balls to the boundary on its merit, and give their wkt away to the next ball !

Our current batsmen playing in the national team are still a good five-six years away from effectively doing what your are proposing. It will come not by playing in the domestic against low quality bowlers and pitch, but, by playing together overseas, year after year, against different opposition and difficult conditions. In the mean time, what they can do in both versions of the game, is mastering the ability to not give so many dot balls. We can deny the perfect plan if we are more pro-active on our feet. We are either boundary hitters, or blockers, ball after ball. There are plenty of gaps in the field if you know how to defend with soft hands and work the ball away in the gaps. Our understanding between in any two given batsmen while running between the wkts are shambolic to say the least. Off course they will have to react to the field set by the rival captain. He should know what they are trying to do by just looking at the field. Also, a point to ponder : Poor anticipation can be more harmful and may lead to too many unwanted improvisation. My suggestion would be for a batsman walking into the pitch- weather the storm first, get your eyes in, do punish the bad balls on the ground, leave a lot of balls, know where your stumps are at all times, start working the balls to disturb any developing plans. Once, you have settled in by getting a good start, anticipation of what the bowler is trying to do should be natural. But overdoing it, may lead to a sudden dismissal. It has to be mixed in as a surprise element. But, you raised a very valid shortcoming and kudos to you for pointing it out.
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  #45  
Old January 16, 2008, 11:57 PM
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ANTICIPATION is a key component in cricket whether batting, bowling or fielding. Ï would say Mash is genarally good in reading batsmans mind. Rasel is good too and Shahadat is on the way. Batting and Slip/Gully catching are lacking the most in Anticipation. Our slip fielders look almost shocked if a ball comes their way- never mind catching! Last year Rafique dropped a few absolute caught and bowled sitters- it seemed to me then that he actually never thought that a ball might be hit back too him- his reaction was that slow!

Thanks for an excellent post, samircreep!
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  #46  
Old January 18, 2008, 03:05 AM
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A lot of good things were analysed in this thread. Specially while talking about strategy the Bashar or Mashud type captaincy can be heavy example of execution of strategy modeled as a game plan beforehand regardless of the different entropic turnaround inside the field. It always seemed BD captaincy lacks tactics whereas Lara or Fleming with mediocre resource and technically deficient team was able to bring better fruit (not necessarily a win) recent past. While anticipating opponent bowling the BD Batsmen needs to go beyond the physical exposure and rule over the pressure that the fieldsmen trying to brew down upon him.
Definitely there is a pattern and soon our batsmen will be tough enough not to surrender rather force opponent to change their tactics too often as he streamlines with their strategy to sedate an innings above surrounding psychological influences.
Thanks to sandpiper for invaluable links. It tells a good percentage of the story.
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  #47  
Old January 19, 2008, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
jK my buddy, if you are averaging double digits in bouncy pitches against arguably better bowling, then you should do very nicely in BD. Just stick your front feed down the ground on anything that's not a half-tracker and drive through the line. It won't deviate much off the seam and it won't rise high enough to hit the splice

BD pitches are slow and low. If they have been allowed to cure for a bit (i.e. watered, rolled and unused) then they can get skiddy. And if it's really dry, expect a few "grubbers".
Good, I'm a driver of the ball and just have problems with short bowling so I guess it's all good when I go BD..

But I thought BD pitches have cracks all over the place? I saw one in Narayanganj and it was cracked all over..
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  #48  
Old January 19, 2008, 04:06 AM
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Those would be the grubbers or shooters - the balls that hit the cracks i.e. Again, play through the line and at worst you'll have some damaged bat toes.
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  #49  
Old January 19, 2008, 04:08 AM
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... So how the hell did Ash learn to pull like that?
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  #50  
Old January 19, 2008, 04:26 AM
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school cricket on matting wickets and small boundaries ... plus an amazing eye
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