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  #1  
Old June 8, 2008, 04:38 PM
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Default Siddons is building towards a bigger plan and a New Ash

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One of the positives for Bangladesh - apart from their excellent ground fielding - to emerge from this comprehensive defeat was the manner in which Ashraful went about collecting his runs. The pressure was certainly off because Bangladesh had no hope of winning, and perhaps Ashraful could have played with a little more urgency than 56 off 90 balls, but Siddons had asked for consistency from his captain and Ashraful showed he could shelve his flamboyance and knuckle down.

"We've worked hard on him [Ashraful] batting the way he batted today," Siddons said. "I know everyone is probably thinking that's not the Ashraful we expect, but the Ashraful that hits the ball in the air a lot, gets out a lot too, and comes off probably once or twice a year. I'm looking at someone who makes 60-70 quite often. I think he's a very hard player to get out if he bats the way he did today. We always tend to have one player who scores and the rest fail. We need to have more consistency."
I heard Rumblings that he batted like this vs Bangladesh A in his 67*, now 56*. That Flamboyant Enigma is gonna die, I think he is only A few in the country that can hold Anchor in an Innings and Stay all the way, It may lead to a defeatist approach to some but It can also be a Huge Building Block to build around, Remember JS said results are irrelevent at this stage, It kills us (The fans) but I think when his Contract is up , Wins May come far way to long in between this year ... but his input will have a long positive take on Bangladesh Cricket.

You want a Chadrapaul/Kallis Robot, Irregardless of the score he's (Ash) gonna bat w/little risk. Chasing 300+ you might wanna see the old Ash but thats lightning in a bottle, I wanna see the Ash in Sophia Gardens (no risk), not the one who blitzed England and India.

In terms of building blocks out of 11 pieces we have about 5 set

An Opener (Tamim), A Middle Order Anchor (I truly believe Ash will/has change), A spinning All rounder (Sakib), A finisher (Aftab, management need to know that), A opening Bowler (Mashrafe) and Perhaps a WicketKeeper (Rahim).

Now try to find 6 more, the 5 that we have still have 10+ years of cricket left. And We only played with 3 from the core, Sticking 17/18 yr olds in International is 95% rate of destroying there career only a few can survive so some blame has to go to the selectors, Dolar, Raqibul may be future greats but selectors are treating them like factory pieces
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Last edited by cricman; June 8, 2008 at 04:52 PM..
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  #2  
Old June 8, 2008, 05:02 PM
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i like this! great stuff cricman bhai!
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  #3  
Old June 8, 2008, 05:10 PM
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lol as long as he can do it more consistently.....and maybe next time make a 50 in 70 rather than 80-90
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  #4  
Old June 8, 2008, 05:36 PM
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hopefully he doesn't lose all his flamboynace, it's more a matter of playing to the situation and play safe when you need to and when it doesn't matter as much or it comes to the latter overs playing a few more risky shots might be called for. i still believe ashraful has the talent to play aggressively safe as opposed to slow poke safe. but at least he's playing a more responsible game so the players looking up to him will take the positives from that.
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  #5  
Old June 8, 2008, 05:48 PM
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Gowza, Ashraful is not capable of playing according to situation. If I remember correctly, Harsha Bhogle once said Ashraful can pace his inning either in the first gear or in the fourth gear, there is nothing in between. He can either block or hit for boundaries, but struggles to find gaps and sneak singles.

However, I have no complain if Siddons wants Ashraful to give up his flamboyance and be a more defensive batsman.
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  #6  
Old June 8, 2008, 05:57 PM
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Ishtylish cricketer Ishtylish cricketer is offline
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Playing the ball in the ground is ideal...but losing a game deliberately or giving up a match to get in form is not done even at domestic level. Back to school cricket for Ashraful it seems. You're taught to play the ball on the ground and not loft when you start out as a batsman. It's sad to see Ash getting his cricket education at the national team. Should he have not learned that already? This is negativity at its worst. Imo, best way to bat is with an empty mind, devoid of everything. The JS approach seems very unprofessional and not applicable at the international level but one can argue it's needed to resurrect players like Aftab and Ashraful's career. I hope he does something so our batsmen can play spinners. We are worse at playing spinners than english and SA batsmen. Tamim can't play spinners at all. He just has a slog sweep and a cut shot to offer. Kapali got trapped in the crease and was beaten by Afridi's quicker one. Expected better than that from him. He must score because he won't get too many more opportunities. Mahmudullah at least tried to up the rate but the way got bowled, it looked very ugly. He should be a regular in the team though, he has lots to offer. I felt bad for the players because giving up a match would not be not appreciated by competitive individuals. I don't know how many players will buy into JS's "don't worry about winning" approach but it may and hopefully will lead to success few years later. Till then we can expect struggles of this nature, every now and then.

Last edited by Ishtylish cricketer; June 8, 2008 at 10:14 PM..
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  #7  
Old June 8, 2008, 06:02 PM
MohammedC MohammedC is offline
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I am waiting till the next match to see what kind of consistency Ash shows.
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  #8  
Old June 8, 2008, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishtylish cricketer
Playing the ball in the ground is ideal...but losing a game deliberately or giving up a match to get in form is not done even at domestic level. Back to school cricket for Ashraful it seems. You're taught to play the ball on the ground and not loft when you start out as a batsman. It's sad to see Ash getting his cricket education at the national team. Should have not learned that already?
You have very much hit the nail there. Unfortunately, in school cricket or in age group cricket, they teach you how to play your shots, but not how to place your shots in gaps. That's why very often we see Tamim, Ashraful, or Aftab middling and timing the ball well but struggling to place their shots in gaps. Eventually they get frustrated and start playing lofted shots (and throw their wickets in the process).
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  #9  
Old June 8, 2008, 06:09 PM
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i watched the beginning of this innings, Ash started very tentatively and he did not look comfortable at all. he was also playing some unnecessary shots. I think we have to wait for a while before Ashraful is consistent... But, hat tip to JS for trying to do something with Ashraful.
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  #10  
Old June 8, 2008, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eshen
Gowza, Ashraful is not capable of playing according to situation. If I remember correctly, Harsha Bhogle once said Ashraful can pace his inning either in the first gear or in the fourth gear, there is nothing in between. He can either block or hit for boundaries, but struggles to find gaps and sneak singles.

However, I have no complain if Siddons wants Ashraful to give up his flamboyance and be a more defensive batsman.

actually, asides from sakib and alok, ashraful is best batsman we have in terms of milking singles in the middle overs with the field spread out. today ash was in terrible form. he was getting beaten almost every ball for the first couple dozen balls he faced.

ash along with aftab are capable of playing in every gear. thats why its such a waste. if they weren't capable, then no one would speak of ash and aftab failing to live up to potential because they average about as much as afridi does, who is a player with just one gear. remember dhoni when he came on the scene? 183* in just 40 overs and what not...he can't do that all the time. as a result dhoni settled down, often playing innings slow enough to irk the indian fans. that coupled with batting at 6-7 has helped him maintain a 40+ average in ODIs.

basically there are 4 gears: first which is to bat for a draw, 2nd which is innings building, 3rd which is free scoring and 4th, which is slogging. ash and aftab are capable of playing all 4 - maybe not equally well, but they are still learning the game. aftab generally bats in 4th gear, and when he doesn't he's usually in 1st. ash is an enigma because he can bat in any gear, yet throw his wicket away. this game was one where he almost did twice, but apart from that he kept himself in check. today's ash batted in 1st and 2nd gear. the 5th ODI against PAK he batted in 3rd, but threw his wicket away.

sakib is a guy who i thought could only play in 1st or 2nd, but he definitely hit 3rd against pakistan. JO was a 1st gear only player, HB was a 1-2, rajin a 1, tamim mainly a 1 or 4, with occaisional 3rd gear. etc. raqibul hasan seems to be a 1-2 guy, and SN a 1,2,3 guy who just always gets out for 25 runs or less.
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  #11  
Old June 8, 2008, 07:18 PM
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our poor domestic infrastructure means that if ash, aftab are to learn, it will have to happen in the national team level. this means a number of negative things. firstly, that the team willl suffer as it did today. second, that the learning will be tougher since its done at an unforgiving level of difficulty and the rate of learning will probably be quite slow. it might take years, and thats if ash and aftab actually learn. and i think they can. its up to them to see what and how much they can take from siddons.
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  #12  
Old June 8, 2008, 08:10 PM
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Its not just Ashfraful, we need consistency where batsmen and bowler works together. Cricket is no tennis, its no one man effort. Last night the bowlers did a fantastic job restricting them to 233, which would have been much higher. But our batsmen threw it all out.

Other times when our batsmen score 250-260, our bowlers pick their first wicket at 25th over with say 5 more runs to go.

We can have endless threads on improvement, endless calls for dropping of Ashfraful, Tamim, sacking of Siddon, Whatmore and what not?

We know exactly where the problem lies. Batting and bowling coordination, one shines the other flops. Everyone in the team needs to talk. For example, if Bangladesh bats first, Mashrafe should go and ask Tamim how was it, which kind of delivery, what areas of the pitch gave him a hard time and use/modify that to work against Salman Butt.

The win against Australia and especially against India in WC is a classic example of teamwork that's as rare as finding penguins in Sahara desert.

Thats just an example. If we can get this intial phase of improvement rolling, then we can talk about individual performances. Because last night, Ashraful had his mini-Eid of 56, but that wasn't enough to give us victory. End of the day he is just one man, a small portion of the big picture.
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  #13  
Old June 8, 2008, 08:12 PM
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the way things r goin...siddon jokhon chola jabe..tokhon kono coach bangladesh re coaching korte raji hobe naa..ar siddon kothaw kono coaching er job pabe na...
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  #14  
Old June 8, 2008, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bangladesh_sy
the way things r goin...siddon jokhon chola jabe..tokhon kono coach bangladesh re coaching korte raji hobe naa..ar siddon kothaw kono coaching er job pabe na...
ami ei commenta 4/5 agea korchilam, etodin por ei comment asche...good to see

Siddons Asher khela change kore ki luv hobe bole shuni? Borjor Ash tar individual performance improve korte parbe, tamim and ash are the only pinch hitter batsman. Siddonser uchit tar vul gulo shudre dewa, abong tar natural game khelte dewa. Today the way that he played, if it was a test match or if BD batted first today and got this type of situation, then i would have no problem.
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  #15  
Old June 8, 2008, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan



basically there are 4 gears: first which is to bat for a draw, 2nd which is innings building, 3rd which is free scoring and 4th, which is slogging. ash and aftab are capable of playing all 4 - maybe not equally well, but they are still learning the game. aftab generally bats in 4th gear, and when he doesn't he's usually in 1st. ash is an enigma because he can bat in any gear, yet throw his wicket away. this game was one where he almost did twice, but apart from that he kept himself in check. today's ash batted in 1st and 2nd gear. the 5th ODI against PAK he batted in 3rd, but threw his wicket away.
that's why i prefer automatic...
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  #16  
Old June 9, 2008, 12:38 AM
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"That Flamboyant Enigma is gonna die, I think he is only A few in the country that can hold Anchor in an Innings and Stay all the way, It may lead to a defeatist approach to some but It can also be a Huge Building Block to build around"

SO, first of all I hope all the critics of Ash have got their answer, why he batted like this. So lets not shout against Ash unnecessarily, he is still one of the best cricketers we have.

Now, the approach JS has taken is too risky and could even destroy our cric future, on the other hand if that's successful, it will be a miracle and one of its kind in the history of cricket. It will change all the perceptions of Cric Gurus across the globe.

Any cric Guru will tell you that it is impossible and more damaging to change the natural way of shot making of a player. You can refine him, rectify his technical abilities and make him more practice to get perfection in what he is doing.

I don't think a true pro to ever go 100% against the conventional wisdom. Why He had to pick up Ash to make him a grafter? Let him do what he was good at? We had a lot of grafting materials, why not develop some of them? I wish he succeeds, but if he fails, he has no means or ability to fix it back. Gambling at others cost & putting too many things at stake. Can't be a pro.
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Last edited by BANFAN; June 9, 2008 at 04:48 AM..
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  #17  
Old June 9, 2008, 02:06 AM
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For Siddons Result is not important; for us it is important. Siddons is a loser. Now I understand why he is considered as one of the greatest aussi batsmen never to play test; because for him result is not important and for Australia the first and only option is winning
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  #18  
Old June 9, 2008, 03:53 AM
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A very interesting proposition is being deployed by JS at present. Giving Ashraful the license to kill did not help Bangladesh in most (almost all) of the cases. I believe he might become a full fledged batsman if he tries grafter options. After that he could do whatever the team needs him to do - bashing or grafting.

Having a long term approach (not bothering about winning when rebuilding the team is focused) by JS is still getting lot of support as well as criticism. I'd like to believe that he's doing the right thing for BD cricket.
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  #19  
Old June 9, 2008, 04:09 AM
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A national team player must be able to play according to the situation. And at every situation, a good batsman must be able to judge the deliveries. If a player is able to do that, he will play. If not, he has to go. This is the professional world of cricket.

I don't understand what JS's point here. Playing for losing will never work for improvement. And I think, those improvement phase for bangladesh should be over by now. We should be able to play for wins; otherwise we should ask ICC to give us a rest.
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Old June 9, 2008, 05:58 AM
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We have seen that how some class players have struggled to score at a demanding rate. While many face it difficult to score at a test rate (2/3 rpo); like Shehwaq/Jayasurya etc. All the players are human beings and we can't expect a person to be comforable at both extremes. There may be some very rare exceptions.

Adjustment is Possible within a sensible deviation limits to one's natural instincts.
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  #21  
Old June 9, 2008, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANFAN
We have seen that how some class players have struggled to score at a demanding rate. While many face it difficult to score at a test rate (2/3 rpo); like Shehwaq/Jayasurya etc. All the players are human beings and we can't expect a person to be comforable at both extremes. There may be some very rare exceptions.

Adjustment is Possible within a sensible deviation limits to one's natural instincts.
Not really. These expectations are no exception, these are norms. Every internationally successful player has the ability to play according to the situation. Taking your example, Sehwag and Jayasuriya are very much able to control their innings as per the requirements of the situation.

However, form does matter. A player in good form ususally gets good touch and can score freely. In bad periods, however, they are either dropped by the team (like Hayden), or adjust their strategies and roles (like tendulkar or Jayasuriya).

If our Ashrafool is out of form in such an extent that he plays for losing, he should be dropped immediately. If he is just facing a bad period, e.g., getting starts and then playing a bad shot and getting out (like Jayasuriya in the earlier IPL matches), then he should do the simple adjustments of being more careful about shot selection. Nothing does justify his giving Yunus a maiden over.
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  #22  
Old June 9, 2008, 07:53 AM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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since when has hayden been dropped? unless your talking years ago before he became successful at test level? he's currently injured....

i agree though, a successful international player is one who can adjust their game to the situation. they aren't necessarily comfortable playing in certain situations which goes against their natural style but if it's needed and they put their head down they can do it the right way for the team. of course they're not necessarily as equally good in all situations but the top players are still solid players no matter how they have to play. definitely something ashraful and others in the national team need to learn.
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  #23  
Old June 9, 2008, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
since when has hayden been dropped? unless your talking years ago before he became successful at test level? he's currently injured....
Thanks for your comment. He was dropped from the ODI squad after the 2005 Ashes.
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  #24  
Old June 9, 2008, 08:37 AM
Russell2k7 Russell2k7 is offline
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He is. I'd take this Ash over the 12 off 4 any day and any circumstance. This is what other coaches should have done. I know it sucks for us fans, but its for the "greater" good.
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  #25  
Old June 9, 2008, 09:03 AM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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So basically we have too choice.

a) Either Ashrafool aka bolod, or
b) Ashra Omar Belim aka slow poke.
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