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  #101  
Old June 10, 2008, 10:24 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer
JS in my mind is doing the right thing! Listen me out before jumping on me and please put aside the sporadic victories from Whatmore era for a second. Is Ash can learn to play the game they way it should be played ( a big if ), we will better off in the long run, and specially in test matches. There has been a noticable change in the way some of our core batsmen are approaching the game, mainly Tamim, Ash, Aftab and Sakib, the four major components of our batting line up in both versions of the game. All of a sudden a bunch of young adults, or you may call them juvenile delinquents if you wish, are being shown the ropes from the vantage point of a kintergarden. Its unfortunate but thats the way it has to be. We have never learned the basics of ABCD, yet we were competing with teams decorated with a few Pulitzer winners! Once in a while our delinquents swung around wildly and managed to put together tough words in the game of scrabble they were playing. But, you can't attain consistency that way unless you have the knowledge to back you up. To our good fortune, the schooling is being done to players who shouldn't be playing top flight cricket at this age anyway. So, not all is lost. Even if it takes five years, the core won't be any older than 27, and they would have a good eight-ten years of service ahead of them. Don't worry about results right now. If it comes earlier, good for them and us. If we fail, thats the hand that has been dealt to us and we must re start the process again, but only this time we must start the schooling when it should be done, during the age groups, U-19's, Academy teams, A-teams and on towards the major team.
good thoughts.

i sincerely hope that ash can continue to check his attacking instinct except in the slog overs, that aftab finds his pre kallis form, and that sakib can continue what he started in pakistan a couple months ago. right now tamim looks most promising and i pray he continues to develop.
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  #102  
Old June 10, 2008, 10:47 AM
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Asad

Ash has to do a better job than what he offered last game. Playing sensibly doesn't mean shelving your attacking instincts. What it means that he must do away ( aftab as well ) with those foolish aerial low percentage shots less and less. If its there, he however should take it, but not manufacture it. He is coming at no.3 now, with the possibility of a bulk of PP overs in front of him. If he is patient enough, bowlers will give away boundary balls, and he should take those even if that means lofting over the in field, unless a midwkt is posted deep for his pulls, and in that case, decline the offer. The sooner we ditch the Napoleonic hero syndrome, the better we will in the long run. This approach should help us in test arena. Ash is the central focus of our batting however unfortunate it may seem. Longer he stays at the pitch, the better the outlook of the overall team score.

I think the SN saga is coming to an end. He is what he is. A big time minnow basher. I will invest in Zunaid for the future and give him an extended run. He is too good a player to misfire. SN has to score runs, specially in ODI's to remain in the team. He is a bad fielder and doesn't bowl. Too one dimensional. If the second opener is not found in time ( Zunaid is there for tests and should also play in ODI's ), I would promote Mushfiq to partner with Tamim. He won't score less than SN and has the added bonus of being a multi skilled player. We can take an extra batsman or a bowler in that case. SN should play in tests though until he takes himself out of that equation. Rokibul should only play tests for now.
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  #103  
Old June 10, 2008, 10:52 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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agreed. but the management should first try SN in the ODI middle order as many have suggested. he certainly isnt' opening material.

in the test format, he seems much more at home, though he still gets out after getting set.

anyone know if we are hosting NZ this year??? we were supposed to.
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  #104  
Old June 10, 2008, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
anyone know if we are hosting NZ this year??? we were supposed to.
nop...asia cup...australia n south africa...that's it for this year i think..
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  #105  
Old June 10, 2008, 12:04 PM
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BANFAN BANFAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer
JS in my mind is doing the right thing! Listen me out before jumping on me and please put aside the sporadic victories from Whatmore era for a second. Is Ash can learn to play the game they way it should be played ( a big if ), we will better off in the long run, and specially in test matches. There has been a noticable change in the way some of our core batsmen are approaching the game, mainly Tamim, Ash, Aftab and Sakib, the four major components of our batting line up in both versions of the game. All of a sudden a bunch of young adults, or you may call them juvenile delinquents if you wish, are being shown the ropes from the vantage point of a kintergarden. Its unfortunate but thats the way it has to be. We have never learned the basics of ABCD, yet we were competing with teams decorated with a few Pulitzer winners! Once in a while our delinquents swung around wildly and managed to put together tough words in the game of scrabble they were playing. But, you can't attain consistency that way unless you have the knowledge to back you up. To our good fortune, the schooling is being done to players who shouldn't be playing top flight cricket at this age anyway. So, not all is lost. Even if it takes five years, the core won't be any older than 27, and they would have a good eight-ten years of service ahead of them. Don't worry about results right now. If it comes earlier, good for them and us. If we fail, thats the hand that has been dealt to us and we must re start the process again, but only this time we must start the schooling when it should be done, during the age groups, U-19's, Academy teams, A-teams and on towards the major team.
You are not the only one to think like this and there are many who share the same thoughts as of your post. There is no doubt if you give 5 years time to JS the team will change, will improve. Infact any coach will make that improvement. Point is that can we afford to leave the present alltogether?

1. Will ICC and other test playing countries accept such a development squad for 5 years?

2. can we answer for all the losses that we are going through for 5 years?

3. In the process of learning better cricket aren't we forgetting to win? It's not only cricket, something more is needed to win.

4. Can anyone gurantee that after five years improvement will be so big that we will start playing suddenly like world beaters?

There are many such questions, for which I think he could be with the U19/Academy teams to produce players for the future and meanwhile we need someone who can take the WM time successes a little ahead. We can't afford to leave the present.
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  #106  
Old June 10, 2008, 05:18 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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well it depends on your definition of world beaters, for me that means teams like the invincibles, the WI of the 80s the late steve waugh era/early ponting era, basically teams that are thought of as almost impossible to beat.

it will probably take along time for BD to have a team like that. in regards to goals think of it as building a career. you don't go straight from being a school kid to being CEO of a company, being CEO might be your long term goal but there are a lot of other little goals like finishing high school, going to uni etc that you need to achieve before you can achieve the goal of being CEO. little goals keep you on track for the bigger goals.
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  #107  
Old June 10, 2008, 05:45 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANFAN
You are not the only one to think like this and there are many who share the same thoughts as of your post. There is no doubt if you give 5 years time to JS the team will change, will improve. Infact any coach will make that improvement. Point is that can we afford to leave the present alltogether?

1. Will ICC and other test playing countries accept such a development squad for 5 years?

2. can we answer for all the losses that we are going through for 5 years?

3. In the process of learning better cricket aren't we forgetting to win? It's not only cricket, something more is needed to win.

4. Can anyone gurantee that after five years improvement will be so big that we will start playing suddenly like world beaters?

There are many such questions, for which I think he could be with the U19/Academy teams to produce players for the future and meanwhile we need someone who can take the WM time successes a little ahead. We can't afford to leave the present.
1. hopefully if the team shows improvement by the end of siddons 2 years the ICC will notice and continue to support BD.
2. in the long term yes, but those 5 years have to be used right.
3. this is up to personal opinion, i think working on individuals and the team can be done together but it's difficult, it's easier to just work on the individuals and when they're up to scratch work on the team. once these 2 things are improved then it becomes about implementing those improvements which means trying to get the wins. but i think atm there are more important things to worry about than winning e.g. you can't win if you don't have the tools, the BD players don't have all the tools yet. winning would help obviously, and they should still try and win but if they don't they shouldn't worry too much for the moment.
4. already answered in my other post.
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  #108  
Old June 10, 2008, 07:50 PM
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1. Whatmore ain't coming back. There is no guarantee that the next person will be better, knowing that 90% of the problem lies with BD itself.

2. We have been losing for 5 years, and we will continue to lose for 5 more. As long as there are perceptible improvements, which align together to bring victories, we are on the right track.

3. First we learn how to play, and then we win. I thought everything in life was like that.

4. I personally don't want improvements that are really big - being realistic.

5. Nada

6. Nada

7. Nada

8. Nada

9. Nada

10. Nada
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  #109  
Old June 11, 2008, 10:42 AM
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Siddons is building towards a bigger plan. That plan is to make us champion. But we would be champion of ICC associates. The way, we are playing if somebody propose a motion to stripe Bangladesh of its test status, I would not be surprised if it was pass. because it would open up some free space for Aus- India, Aus-SA, Ind- Pak or another round of IPL. It would be supported by fans of all other countries and half of die hard BD supporter would accept it and the other half support it. BCB and players would do nothing. When you are led by a looser in field you become a looser. At the moment our cricket is run by a looser. When I am talking about looser I am not talk about those who loose (because of their lack of technical ability to win like present Zimbo, Kenya) but about those who lose before the match start (Like present BD or most of the EPL clubs against big four).
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  #110  
Old June 11, 2008, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gowza
he is trying to build for the future, he's just doing a half-assed job of doing it. whether he's aware of that i'm not sure but he needs to realise his potential career opportunities as head coach of international cricket teams is on the line, if he's seen as not working hard with the BD team and not putting in the effort e.g. not doing research or constantly taking holidays then he may not get many offers when his contract is up with the BD national team.

agree with you 100%. He really has not spent much time with this team, always on holidays. IMO, He should have longer training camps with them. practice is what it is all about.
Hope he can spend at least one week with them before the Asia cup in pakistan, because at the moment, BD is completely out of this KITPLY CUP.iT IS A CONTEST BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN. BD is just going going through the motions of trying to play cricket, and making a poor job of it, thanks to JS.
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  #111  
Old June 11, 2008, 11:00 AM
abu2abu abu2abu is offline
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Let's take this "bigger picture" theory. if siddons is working towards a bigger picture, that's fine, we don't expect to win every match but we do expect to see discernable improvements. So far we've seen:

• Zunaed and Tamim scorong well in tests (though the former went on to lose his ODI form).
• Shakib scoring a hundred in a hopelessly one-sided affair against Pakistan.
• Rajib almost single-handedly handing us victory against south africa.
• And now Ash curbing his attacking instincts to score a sedate 50 in a losing cause.
• A whitewash against Ireland at home.
(There may be more, I can't remember off the top of my head..)

All of these things are encouraging, but (understandably) not everyone is happy with the pace of change. After all these achievements don't take away from the pain of losing matches and being slated as minnows and under-achievers by our critics.

I wish siddons the best of luck and it's too early to say what effect he will have on BD cricket. However, if he fails everyone will say he was out of his depth and should never have been made coach in the first place.

As I've said before I feel the ODI series in Oz (August) and the South Africa series in December will be an appropriate time in which to assess how far we've come.
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  #112  
Old June 11, 2008, 01:42 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abu2abu
Let's take this "bigger picture" theory. if siddons is working towards a bigger picture, that's fine, we don't expect to win every match but we do expect to see discernable improvements. So far we've seen:

• Zunaed and Tamim scorong well in tests (though the former went on to lose his ODI form).
• Shakib scoring a hundred in a hopelessly one-sided affair against Pakistan.
• Rajib almost single-handedly handing us victory against south africa.
• And now Ash curbing his attacking instincts to score a sedate 50 in a losing cause.
• A whitewash against Ireland at home.
(There may be more, I can't remember off the top of my head..)

All of these things are encouraging, but (understandably) not everyone is happy with the pace of change. After all these achievements don't take away from the pain of losing matches and being slated as minnows and under-achievers by our critics.

I wish siddons the best of luck and it's too early to say what effect he will have on BD cricket. However, if he fails everyone will say he was out of his depth and should never have been made coach in the first place.

As I've said before I feel the ODI series in Oz (August) and the South Africa series in December will be an appropriate time in which to assess how far we've come.
good post. agree to all points.

i am actually not worried by the slowness of the development. and i've always known that there will be ups and downs. i just didn't expect such a huge drop. but i am more than willing to keep the faith.

tamim's consistency, especially against the Great 8, is impressive. its most impressive because it is occuring well beyond his rookie season. guys like SN, rajin all sparkled but tamim contines to sparkle and sparkle far brighter.
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  #113  
Old June 11, 2008, 05:07 PM
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Ishtylish cricketer Ishtylish cricketer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BANFAN
How do you judge/rate a batsman who never gets set or never play a significant number of balls? He is unjudgable ? means CRAP !! Right? But offcourse it has to be seen over some time. Just one match is not enough to make a judgement. So Alok should get more chances so that if he has some ability he can show it and if he is proven CRAP he is permanently out.
We have so many Tendulkars and Laras in our country that it's shameful and embarrasing to see guys like Ash, Aftab and Alok getting myriad of chances. BANFAN, I hope you have not forgotten that Alok is a leg spinner first and foremost and a batsman second, at the international level. Those who watched the Bd game will agree with the following statement: Alok actually turned the ball and created doubts in batsman's mind unlike any of our other spinners, however like ALL our bowlers he bowled one or two bad balls an over. I definitely cannot and will not evev attempt to justify his batting failure. His inability to pick up cues for the faster leg break is no way excuseable given that he's a leg spinner himself. Alok is aware of his own situation and told Arun Lal during last match's lunch interview, that he's on his last leg as far as chances are concerned. The current Bd team's philosophy seems to be winning or losing doesn't matter as much as self-improvement. This mantra may be what out of form players like Alok need. If this is applicable to all then dare I say Alok has the utmost luxuary to bat selfishly like Ashraful and accumulate a score to get himself in contention for a spot in the next series. Unfortunately, for Alok no matter what he does in the next match once Aftab recovers, he will have to compete with Riyad for a spot. Aloukik kopal? I beg to differ.

Last edited by Ishtylish cricketer; June 12, 2008 at 01:33 AM..
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  #114  
Old June 11, 2008, 05:46 PM
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sigh.... one more person working for a better 'Bangladesh'....
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  #115  
Old June 11, 2008, 09:44 PM
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i wish coach siddons and our team all the best!
off the topic, really looking forward to the a-team's tour of england! yey!!!!!
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  #116  
Old June 12, 2008, 01:53 AM
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BANFAN BANFAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishtylish cricketer
BANFAN, I hope you have not forgotten that Alok is a leg spinner first and foremost and a batsman second, at the international level.
He came to the team as an allrounder. Now you have given up on his batting and claim him to be a Bowler primarily. Can you tell me which is another specialist bowler in our side in the team with such bowling figures?

------Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10
Tests 17 19 - 1103 -709 - 6 - 3/3- 3/33 -118.16 3.85 183.8 0 0 0
ODIs 56 39 - 1172 -988 -18 - 3/49- 3/49- 54.88 5.05 65.1 0 0 0

Show me one BD regular bowler who has a worse bowling figures than Alok. How can he even compete with Rajin/Aftab in Bowling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishtylish cricketer
Unfortunately, for Alok no matter what he does in the next match once Aftab recovers he will have to compete with Riyad for a spot. Aloukik kopal? I beg to differ.
You still differ? Hope Not.
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  #117  
Old June 12, 2008, 02:17 PM
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This new Ash is scoring runs he was a bit lucky, albeit slowly it seems that no can stay in the crease for to long so this new JO .... I mean Ash is beneficial. You could see the partnership really take into fruition before he was dismissed, there was a period where they took 9 Straight Singles, I was like whoa whens the last time you saw that in BD cricket

Quote:
18.1 IK Pathan to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, flicked to square leg
18.2 IK Pathan to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, slower ball pitched on middle, Raqibul waited on it and cut it to point despite being cramped for room
18.3 IK Pathan to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, pitched outside off and moving awat, Raqibul drives it through extra cover with ease
18.4 IK Pathan to Raqibul Hasan, no run, pitched short but moves in to the batsman who turns it to leg side
18.5 IK Pathan to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, slightly over-pitched now, round the wicket delivery, played behind point
18.6 IK Pathan to Mohammad Ashraful, no run, short of a length outside off, driven to cover
End of over 19 (4 runs) - Bangladesh 63/2 (RR: 3.31)
Mohammad Ashraful 24* (52b 2x4) IK Pathan 5-0-28-0
Raqibul Hasan 22* (39b 2x4) PP Chawla 1-0-2-0
19.1 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, 3 runs, Raqibul plays it on the full to kill the turn and sweeps to fine leg where Irfan makes a fine save
19.2 Chawla to Mohammad Ashraful, no run, Ashraful tries to sweep as well and gets hit on the pad
19.3 Chawla to Mohammad Ashraful, no run, googly. pitched outside off and comes in to Ashrful who is pushed towards leg on the crease in trying to drive the ball to the off
19.4 Chawla to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, cut to point for single
19.5 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, no run, defended off the front foot to leg side
19.6 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, driven to sweeper cover
back to Sriram Veera
End of over 20 (5 runs) - Bangladesh 68/2 (RR: 3.40)
Raqibul Hasan 26* (42b 2x4) PP Chawla 2-0-7-0
Mohammad Ashraful 25* (55b 2x4) IK Pathan 5-0-28-0
Thanks Nishi
20.1 Yuvraj Singh to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, floated on the middle and leg, turned past square leg
20.2 Yuvraj Singh to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, fuller, on driven for a single
20.3 Yuvraj Singh to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, leans forward to drive to long-on
20.4 Yuvraj Singh to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, outside off stump, punched through cover point
Russell: "To Sajib: Bangladesh has played enough natural game over the years!!! And what have they achieved? Let Siddons do his job... I believe we will see a strong team in near future."
20.5 Yuvraj Singh to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, turned to square leg for yet another single
20.6 Yuvraj Singh to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, waits for the ball to come to him before pushing it to cover point for a single.
End of over 21 (6 runs) - Bangladesh 74/2 (RR: 3.52)
Mohammad Ashraful 28* (58b 2x4) Yuvraj Singh 1-0-6-0
Raqibul Hasan 29* (45b 2x4) PP Chawla 2-0-7-0
21.1 Chawla to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, leans forward to drive to covers
21.2 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, flighted one on the off and middle, worked to midwicket region
21.3 Chawla to Mohammad Ashraful, no run, tossed up full outside off, mistimes a drive to mid-off
21.4 Chawla to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, leans across, pushed to cover point for a quick single
21.5 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, no run, short delivery outside off stump, cut to covers
21.6 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, flighted one outside off, turns slightly, driven towards mid-off
End of over 22 (4 runs) - Bangladesh 78/2 (RR: 3.54)
Raqibul Hasan 31* (48b 2x4) PP Chawla 3-0-11-0
Mohammad Ashraful 30* (61b 2x4) Yuvraj Singh 1-0-6-0
22.1 Yuvraj Singh to Raqibul Hasan, no run, coming in with the arm on the middle stump line, jabbed off the inside edge to the on side
22.2 Yuvraj Singh to Raqibul Hasan, 2 runs, goes down on his knee to paddle a delivery on the middle and off to fine leg
22.3 Yuvraj Singh to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, quicker, on the middle and leg, dabbed past square leg for a single
22.4 Yuvraj Singh to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, slower, shorter, outside off, cut to deep point
22.5 Yuvraj Singh to Raqibul Hasan, no run, fuller, bit more air, driven back to Yuvi
22.6 Yuvraj Singh to Raqibul Hasan, no run, on the middle, goes on straight, pushed to off side and there is no chance of a single
End of over 23 (4 runs) - Bangladesh 82/2 (RR: 3.56)
Raqibul Hasan 34* (53b 2x4) Yuvraj Singh 2-0-10-0
Mohammad Ashraful 31* (62b 2x4) PP Chawla 3-0-11-0
23.1 Chawla to Mohammad Ashraful, 2 runs, tossed up outside off, driven inside-out over extra cover for couple of runs.
23.2 Chawla to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, on the middle and off, turning in, nudged to square leg
23.3 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, no run, flighted really full on the middle, driven to extra cover
23.4 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, 2 runs, width offered outside off stump and crashed to right of sweeper cover where Yusuf Pathan makes a fine diving stop
23.5 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, no run, lands on a length outside off and spins away, Raqibul is unsure, has a poke and is beaten
23.6 Chawla to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, fuller, on the middle and leg, driven to long-on for a single
End of over 24 (6 runs) - Bangladesh 88/2 (RR: 3.66)
Raqibul Hasan 37* (57b 2x4) PP Chawla 4-0-17-0
Mohammad Ashraful 34* (64b 2x4) Yuvraj Singh 2-0-10-0
Yusuf Pathan, the offspinner, replaces Yuvraj
24.1 YK Pathan to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, turning in to middle and off, punched to long-on
24.2 YK Pathan to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, leans forward to steer to cover point
24.3 YK Pathan to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, fuller and they will pick up a single with a drive to long on
24.4 YK Pathan to Mohammad Ashraful, 1 run, turns in ever so slightly from outside off, late cut to left of Gambhir at short third man
24.5 YK Pathan to Raqibul Hasan, 1 run, this time to right of Gambhir for yet another single
32 runs in a span of 42 Balls in boggle down overs, thats some real progress for us

If you could but a few more Tamim's, Raqibuls, Sakibs and Aftabs around this new Ash, like Spitty Said with all these Obivious Choices we will get to West Indies Level
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12.6 Syed Rasel to Sangakkara, OUT: What a delivery, completely fooled Sangakkara, first five delivery were the outswingers and now, this one comes in sharply, Sangakkara tries to left it and ball hits the off stump, top class bowling!
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  #118  
Old June 12, 2008, 02:48 PM
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Fazal Fazal is offline
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Join Date: September 16, 2004
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Siddons is building towards a bigger plan and a New Ash

There should be a name for this plan : "Ash Fash" or "Ash-er Golai Fash"
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