Siddons targets 240 as team total

[yaseer]

We can't reach to a colclusion by comapring stats......DW n JS performing in two different time and situation....also different agenda.

[nsd3]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Hope he can bring us the desired results and becomes our national hero some day.

Agreed whole heartedly. When mangoes are being compared with Jackfruit - there's no scope of going into much deep to figure out how much fibre we've consumed compared to each other. The only comment is to say that ekta 'aam' r akta 'kathal'. Therefore, giving JS more time would give us opportunities to go into details like were those hard fought games or meek surrenders etc etc. I'll be happy to jump on that analysis then inshAllah. Cheers!

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Reality check is important, but beating that drum to defend his role as a coach is Obnoxious. Every person has weaknesses and strengths.

Would you (Any One) like your family members just telling arround that you are an as'ole, always drinking and womenizing and etc etc? That needs to be solved as silently as possible. Publicity of your short commings are not the solution. IMO

Is JS is doing reallity check in this scale?? ask yourself.....
he is not attacking players......... telling some facts as a whole...with a perception of recovering it....everyone knows whats the average of our players and team...nothing is hiidden/silent.......

what do think? you/we are closing our eyes...and no-one is seeing the real fact?

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Blah

In simple words what I am trying to say is that, you can't take first seven months of siddons term and last two years (the best time) of whatmores term and say that siddons screwed up whatever gain whatmores did. Becauese thats bullsh-it.

Why ? If it is your KHAYESH ? then I don't have a problem.
But what is logical? The way he got it, if he has to show progress, he has to show it from there on.

Do you like to say that, every new coach will come and we will go back to our standard in 2000 to compare his performance?

First support then find out reason? or Should have a reason to support? That's your choice.

Anyway, some people havn't been able to find out a reason yet, but supporting.

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by Pundit
I hardly think that Siddons goes to each player and brutally assaults there self-belief using Guantanamo tactics by hurling abuses like you no good piece of sheit!

I think we have a rabble rouser in this board who harbors a lot of personal hatred towards BD cricket and its beneficiaries, and uses old fashioned political type approaches to whip up a debate that is in general unprofessional.

I don't think even if we could afford it, we'd be having elections every 6 months to drive the government out of power. Sounds like a college student wanting to emulate mid-term like exams in real life.

This post summarises everything. Post of the thread.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by yaseer
Is JS is doing reallity check in this scale?? ask yourself.....
he is not attacking players......... telling some facts as a whole...with a perception of recovering it....everyone knows whats the average of our players and team...nothing is hiidden/silent.......

What is the point of telling that our bowlers are too short.

How would one (short boy) feel that his family calling him Natu? I mean these things have no solution, just demeaning and gets the players make feel inferior. What is so much fuss about height of a bowler? Waker didn't need to be that tall to bowl fast? We have a good 4/5 bowlers in and around the national team, who are 6 ft and are playing in the domestic league. Teach them, coach them to be better? What's these complaining?

Once the coach makes such statement, you know the bowler who is not that tall, he will never believe that he can be one of the best ballers because of his height. These gets written in hearts, coz they keep looking up at the coach. They trust the coach.

These damages aren't tangible, but might last pretty long, that you may not even imagine.

He is giving total disgusting picture of our human resource quality, organizing ability and scarcity of resources and as if he is trying to build a palace at ground 0, inside the wreckage. That's uncalled for and un professional.

But surely, lets hope that he is successful and then we will be happier than him that's sure. I only couldn't yet findout the reasons why should we give him more time? What he is going to give us in that time, if not victories? What's his objective during his two years of assignment? Do we really need a coach like him to just get us 200+ consistently, throwing away the matches? Even it can be achieved without any coach now, if winning is not an objective anymore.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by BD-Shardul
This post summarises everything. Post of the thread.

I Hardly Think ......................
I Think ......................................
I Don't Think .............................

I would award you the post of the thread, for being so thoughtful

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
But surely, lets hope that he is successful and then we will be happier than him that's sure. I only couldn't yet findout the reasons why should we give him more time? What he is going to give us in that time, if not victories? What's his objective during his two years of assignment? Do we really need a coach like him to just get us 200+ consistently, throwing away the matches? Even it can be achieved without any coach now, if winning is not an objective anymore.

So, what should we do now? Terminate him and look for another coach or what?

And When Siddons said that he dont want to win? He is just saying the present side is still not good enough or not playing in a way to say that they will win....so, he wants to go strength to strenght...and he would rather take consistent performance than win once in a while.....whats wrong in that i dont understand.

It seems you guys will be happier if Siddins speaks "faka buli" that BD is good enough to beat any side. enough of these "faka bulis"....we want to see a proper direction to really take our side in a possition that we can really mean that when we say...."we will win tomorrow's match and we have been playing like winners".

[Blah]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Why ? If it is your KHAYESH ? then I don't have a problem.
But what is logical? The way he got it, if he has to show progress, he has to show it from there on.

Do you like to say that, every new coach will come and we will go back to our standard in 2000 to compare his performance?

First support then find out reason? or Should have a reason to support? That's your choice.

Anyway, some people havn't been able to find out a reason yet, but supporting.

How about this, 7 of the regular players under whatmore team (last two years), are not inthe current team.

New Captain.

New Coach

And before you start talking about stats, do know how stats work. You can't pull numbers out of your arse and start comparing things and pretend that you actually know what you are talking about.

In stats you have to take viariables and error margins into consideration; to give them any meaning. That's how they work.

And for fracking sake, read the whole post and thread before you qoute and reply someone.

[Blah]

To the ones who critisizes JS for his comments, and critisizing for his pessimistic and negative vibe towards the national teams players. Here are some food for thought:

Dav Whatmore (May, 15. 2007) After World Cup:
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/maga...ry/294139.html

"Yes, sometimes I wonder about basic cricket knowledge. We know that when a right-hand batsman is facing a left-arm fast bowler trying to bowl quick across your body, trying to pull is harder, and that is the natural thing that you expect to be taught when you are younger but it is unheard of. The lack of basic knowledge is a bit staggering really. When these young cricketers were growing up in youth cricket, they weren't told about the basics of cricket. "
----------------------------------------

But coaching Bangladesh is perhaps very different from coaching any other international side.
"Not so very different but the boys need more guidance, a bit more technical assistance. "
----------------------------------------

"A lot of them have the hardware, but the software they need to improve on. We have all seen Aftab Ahmed play unbelievable shots but he get to the 20s and gets out. His intensity is high because he has always had this desire to do well. He has learnt fairly quickly and we all can see it. It's a big contrast from what it began as. He is a brilliant fielder too. But he needs to be more disciplined. It needs a bit of discipline to ensure you get to that timing in the middle just flows."

----------------------------------------

Dav Whatmore (April, 11. 2007):
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/aust...ry/289956.html

We can't just sit back and say: 'That's it, we have answered our critics and that's the end of the story'," Whatmore said. "Far from it. We have still got a long way to go yet and the reality is that Bangladesh are still the No. 9 side in the world and, as sometimes happens, we put in a shocking performance and we get beaten heavily.
"When that happens, it leads to more comments [from the critics]. We know that within ourselves we have improved and that we are capable of causing upset wins and we would like that to continue."

Dav Whatmore, March 18, 2007:
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/maga...ry/285936.html
This is after winning the game against india, and beating newzealand in the practice match.

What has Bangladesh being doing right all these years you feel?

What have they being doing right! We've got a lot of things wrong, that's why we were ranked 10 and now we are nine. We are slowly emerging as a good side. Let's put this in perspective: you can't jump on the bandwagon and say, "listen, Bangladesh has turned the corner," like most in the media are trying to do. Okay, congratulate us, we've done well, yes. But it is just one match, we've got to keep going. We've done a lot of things wrong, lot and lot and lot of things wrong. We are now beginning to do a few things right, so let's give us more time.

What!! Whatmore asks for some time after coaching BD for FOUR fracking years? Surely there is somethign wrong with that picture? No wait, siddons is just coaching for 7 months, and he is asking for more time..... What is wrong with this picture?


These are comments made by whatmore, when bangladesh team was having the most success of it's cricket history.

How is this differant from what Siddon is saying. This is not negative, this is beign practical. Whats wrong with most of us is that that we forgot what happened is recent history. We only have memories of the good wins, which itself was very rare.

You want more blunt comments by whatmore about bangladesh cricket?
Here, have your pick:
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/aust...ml?index=story

[Baundule]

Originally Posted by yaseer
So, what should we do now? Terminate him and look for another coach or what?

yaseer bhai, I understand your emotion. But we should really have the courage to terminate the contract with a coach, if we identify that he is going to the wrong direction.

Anyway, here we are discussing, if the direction is right or wrong. If wrong, it's better for BD cricket to say good bye to Sid as soon as possible.

He is no CTG anyway and so he does not deserve a free-ride.

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
I would award you the post of the thread, for being so thoughtful

Not sure if I am a thoughtful person when it comes to cricket, but this is what I feel:

During the Whatmore dynasty our captain, managemant, coach used to say "On our day we can beat any team in the world."

I have nothing to take away from Dav. He turned BD team into a team which by miles are better than any asscociate team on any given day. But when it comes against the elite teams, we had to wait for day. No matter how do we want to justify the '5' great days that we had against IND, Oz, SRI, and SA, we will have to admit that luck helped us (little bit at least) to achieve what we had on those great days.

Since no one can deny the help of luck to have had "our day" during the Dav dynasty, I always felt that someday it will breakdown. And it did broke down. And the process of breaking down started from the Dav era too. Take out the WC matches against IND and SA, and look at the scorecard of other matches. The picture will be clear.

What JS at the moment is trying to do is to produce 'our days' quite often. That's why he started from the basics. First learn how to put runs on the board. First 200. Then the target become 240. If our batters can consistently able to score 240, our day will come. The bowling has weakened, true, but if batsmen can do their job, I am pretty sure "our days" will come more consistently given with our current bowling attack.

There is no guarantee that JS will succeed. But his logic and approach make sense to me since I am tired of "On our day". Do the Ind-Pak-Sri now before the match say that "On our day.....". No they don't. Do you want your team to say every time they come to the field with the mind set "On our day...". ? I don't.

I find the statistics irrelevant to judge Siddons, becasue this is not the proper time to bring those up.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by Blah
Okay, let me get along with you for a moment here. Since, you mention this core players so much. The stats that ehsan pointed out was from the last two years of whatmore term. To get along with your argument, I will try to predict the core players that you are reffering to who was with whatmore for the majority of the last two years of his tersm.

Let's see this will be interesting. We have:

Core players:

Rafique
Haba (you know mr. bashar)
Javed Omar
tapash bashiya (he played the games BD won against Aussie and India)
Nazmul hossain ( he was in the games BD won against aussie, india twice)
Rajin Saleh (he was inthe games against, india and srilanka)

I don't know if I should include rasel, since he didnt play most of the games under siddons terms.

So here you go. There are 11 possible players in a cricket team. And 7 of the wordl beating core players that you so brag about is largely absent in siddons team.

So I would like to know, what kind of reasoning that you will to justify the hole in your "core players" argument?

This post simply highlights your lack of understanding. You think these are the core players we are talking about?

The core players we are talking about are -

Shahriar Nafees
Ashraful
Aftab
Sakib
Mashrafe
Razzak
Rasel
Shahadat

You can add Tamim and Mushfiq to the list as Dav introduced them in the later phase of his tenure. That makes 9 out of 11 of the playing team and yet Siddons is failing miserably.

It was Siddons choice to leave out Rasel and prefer Shahadat instead in the ODI team. If you take a strategic decision and fail, you must be held accountable for that.

The players we are missing are

Bashar - who was never a major ODI contributor &
Rafique - who was not in Siddons plan and he let Rafique retire from international cricket.

So, the core players remain the same, but one coach managed wins with them and the other coach thinks they are simply incapable and useless.

Now, if you think Tapash, Nazmul and Rajin were our core players, I should stop the discussion with you. There is simply no point to continue.

Thanks.

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by Baundule
yaseer bhai, I understand your emotion. But we should really have the courage to terminate the contract with a coach, if we identify that he is going to the wrong direction.

Anyway, here we are discussing, if the direction is right or wrong. If wrong, it's better for BD cricket to say good bye to Sid as soon as possible.

He is no CTG anyway and so he does not deserve a free-ride.

Agreeed

...discussion here is on his approach.....It's too early to decide whether the appraoch is right or wrong....that's why my point is, we should patiently wait n see for some time...at least JS has some direction in mind and working on it.

As soon as we find or come to the conclusion that the appraoch is backfiring.....he should be terminated right away. I beleive BCB has the courage to do so.

[Blah]

Originally Posted by Miraz
This post simply highlights your lack of understanding. You think these are the core players we are talking about?

The core players we are talking about are -

Shahriar Nafees
Ashraful
Aftab
Sakib
Mashrafe
Razzak
Rasel
Shahadat

You can add Tamim and Mushfiq to the list as Dav introduced them in the later phase of his tenure. That makes 9 out of 11 of the playing team and yet Siddons is failing miserably.

It was Siddons choice to leave out Rasel and prefer Shahadat instead in the ODI team. If you take a strategic decision and fail, you must be held accountable for that.

The players we are missing are

Bashar - who was never a major ODI contributor &
Rafique - who was not in Siddons plan and he let Rafique retire from international cricket.

So, the core players remain the same, but one coach managed wins with them and the other coach thinks they are simply incapable and useless.

Now, if you think Tapash, Nazmul and Rajin were our core players, I sould stop the discussion with you. There is simply no point to continue.

Thanks.

Defination of core players: "What I think is core players are the core. Not necessarily what you think are the core. Thus I am write and you are wrong."

Earth Calling Miraz....

The players I mentioned, were all participant "on a regular basis" in all the five games that BD has won agaianst test playing nations, in the four years under whatmore. Thus they are part of the "core players" (whatever defination you want to put them into).

You my friend is blind within your own inclusive reasoning. There were some 20 players rotated on a daily basis. I named the players who were participant in all the wins against test playing nations under what more.

You will not take in to account their contribution in the rare ODI success against test playing nations, yet brag about Whatmore's success? How are you making any sense?

I checked. Did you?

[Miraz]

Blah,
The problem is you don't understand the meaning of "core".

I will refer you again to the post which started the discussion about the "core" players.

Originally Posted by Eshen
You may ask why I am disregarding the first year and half of Whatmore period, the answer is simple - although we had two-three decent players in the team back then, we had not found a good core of players until the end of 2004. In case of Siddons, he is handed a good core of players from the very beginning.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Blah
To the ones who critisizes JS for his comments, and critisizing for his pessimistic and negative vibe towards the national teams players. Here are some food for thought:

He has also identified our problems as JS and those are no secrets.

1. Show me a negative or demeaning remarks.
2. He never Told that we cannot win against anyone.
3. He didn't tell that genetically we have some disadvantage, we lack resources etc etc in public. Once someone says these in public, means he is preparing his defence for failure.
4. He didn't ever try to justify improvement under him, through exploitation of stats like 200+ and how many fifties.
5. He never compromised the competitive attitude in the field to gain those stats to use them deliberately as signs of huge improvement.

I can go on and on. So you also can I'm sure, because we all are discussing bcoz we love our team. So if you just have a close look at all JS comments from the begining and our on field performances, most of the things will be clear I believe.

I even don't want to get into WM discussion. If you think that JS is on the right track, instead of defending allegations on him, why can't you show a clear vision of JS, the plan, and the outcomes.

How and when are we going towards the road to victory ? Even one in 5/6 matches as it was when JS took over the responsibility. What's the plan? Do you see anything other than blaming everything and everyone?

JS made mistakes, is making mistakes and deserves criticism/discussion, so don't get emotional on it, he is no saint nor a magician. So lets try to find out if he really has any plan at hand. or just passing time and making money. Lets understand that.

I Will be very happy if he succeeds and every mision, vision, objection etc are time bound isn't it?

[yaseer]

I would like to add on this "core players" debate:

I agree with Miraz bhai's list of core players as from my definition those are the core players and they are both avaible to DW and JS era.

But do you think right after JS arrived these "core players" started under performing? "NO"....

Our graph started went down right after we return to test cricket after WC and after a long break from this version. Before WC, we have been playing only ODIs...and our players going more confident on this version, resulting WC success. But after WC, test series against India,..it all started to go wrong....followed to Srilanka....then it hampered in ODIs as well.....Then Siddons came and he is now still trying to get the level up....

So, Break to test cricket......having high success in WC....returning to TESTs...finding ourselves in the same level where we were 2 years ago....confidence breakdown in both forms.......thats it.....So, i dont blame JS when i think of WC Bangladesh team and Asia cup 2008 Bangladesh team.

[Miraz]

If Siddons had said..

"I am working to build a consistent Bangladesh team and it will take --- months. Please disregard the results within the time frame and you will get a better Bangladesh team who will compete consistently".

I would have been the first person to support him from the word go, but instead he is branding us as a hopeless bunch and claiming our past was a fluke. We have no abilities to win matches against top teams and people who think that we can win matches against top teams do not understand cricket at all!!

Here lies the problem. He is not trying to build a better Bangladesh cricket team, at least that's not the message he is giving out, he is trying to justify his failures and using these excuses to save his back.

[BANFAN]

Blah, we had about 100 players who got bd cap so far; many of them played under WM and many of them were the core at different time. We cannot look at all of them, makes no sense. That's past.

We should look at the team JS inherited and what changes he has made. In that way if you see, infact 11 out of 15 are of WM's time. Basically Only HB is out and Raquibul is in playing 11.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by BD-Shardul
There is no guarantee that JS will succeed. But his logic and approach make sense to me since I am tired of "On our day". Do the Ind-Pak-Sri now before the match say that "On our day.....". No they don't. Do you want your team to say every time they come to the field with the mind set "On our day...". ? I don't.

Every thing develops in stages. Once we got the test status every one said that we need 5 years time to start winning. That means first five years in 'Don't Think of Winning' the Phase 1. Soon after that expextations started rising and so the tone was "On Our day we could beat anyone" phase 2, But expectations are still rising and like you said you are tired of it, mens you like to hear "Every day could be our day" Phase 3.

You were tired (impatient) to hear the phase 2 objective. You needed to be in phase 3 but JS is taking you to phase 1. You like it becoz you just got temporarily releived due to the change, as you were fedup with the phase 2 for long time. But soon you will realize that you have infact moved backward and it is not possible to jump from phase 1 to 3, he has just delayed you by almost similar period that you allready spent in phase 2.

We needed to hold on to phase 2 and move forward in natural process, with time and experience.

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Every thing develops in stages. Once we got the test status every one said that we need 5 years time to start winning. That means first five years in 'Don't Think of Winning' the Phase 1. Soon after that expextations started rising and so the tone was "On Our day we could beat anyone" phase 2, But expectations are still rising and like you said you are tired of it, mens you like to hear "Every day could be our day" Phase 3.

You were tired (impatient) to hear the phase 2 objective. You needed to be in phase 3 but JS is taking you to phase 1. You like it becoz you just got temporarily releived due to the change, as you were fedup with the phase 2 for long time. But soon you will realize that you have infact moved backward and it is not possible to jump from phase 1 to 3, he has just delayed you by almost similar period that you allready spent in phase 2.

We needed to hold on to phase 2 and move forward in natural process, with time and experience.

I think that we were not in a position to start from phase 3, to be honest. No matter how much we brag about our Golden era of cricket of the Dav era.

[BD-Shardul]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
Defination of core players: "What I think is core players are the core. Not necessarily what you think are the core. Thus I am write and you are wrong."

Earth Calling Miraz....

The players I mentioned, were all participant "on a regular basis" in all the five games that BD has won agaianst test playing nations, in the four years under whatmore. Thus they are part of the "core players" (whatever defination you want to put them into).

You my friend is blind within your own inclusive reasoning. There were some 20 players rotated on a daily basis. I named the players who were participant in all the wins against test playing nations under what more.

You will not take in to account their contribution in the rare ODI success against test playing nations, yet brag about Whatmore's success? How are you making any sense?

I checked. Did you?

I am with you all the way, Blah bhai. Very well said in all your posts. Kudos for you.

[Ishtylish cricketer]

Originally Posted by Miraz
If Siddons had said..

"I am working to build a consistent Bangladesh team and it will take --- months. Please disregard the results within the time frame and you will get a better Bangladesh team who will compete consistently".

I would have been the first person to support him from the word go, but instead he is branding us as a hopeless bunch and claiming our past was a fluke. We have no abilities to win matches against top teams and people who think that we can win matches against top teams do not understand cricket at all!!

Here lies the problem. He is not trying to build a better Bangladesh cricket team, at least that's not the message he is giving out, he is trying to justify his failures and using these excuses to save his back.

I don't think he's trying to do that at all. If we win about one match out of 25 against a top 8 team, then our achievments have to be regarded as flukes. Granted that Bd beat some of the top teams in ODIs in DW's era, namely Australia, India, SA, and SL but have failed to beat those same teams in a series. This fact justifies our standing and the perception outsiders have our players and team. Our players are crap statisticallly compared to top nations. That's a fact we have to learn to accept. Untill our players start playing consistently no one will give them credit. JS in his short tenure has seen it all. From games being finished in 5-6 overs to Bd almost successfully chasing a score of 320. The "Jekyll and Hyde" phenomenon will nevrr earn any praise from a cricket savy observer. Think about it this way, if you know you're crap (the statistical reality) and won't get a future contract unless you score some runs, you will be working your tail off to prepare yourself to score runs. Sugar coding things never produced champions. Australians are famous for their "tough-love" approach to players and some may be adversely affect by it, but I didn't expect the fans to be affect by this display of affection.

[abu2abu]

There are some very insightful posts here. miraz bhai, BANFAN and BD Shardul have all made some astute observations. I think it's important to bear in mind that we are all entitled to our opinions.

I see it like this. It's too early to judge (as many others are saying) and we should probably give him a full 12 months in the job before assessing him. However, it's difficult not to make comparisons when he chooses to make ridiculous comments like that 50% line. If Siddons is comparing his own performance (over a mere 12 months) to that of his predecessors, then why shouldn't we as fans do the same?
Also, some people have stated that Siddons is a "batting orientated coach" rather than a bowling one and therefore we shouldn't blame him for our bowling problems. I'm sorry but that excuse just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. What exactly was dav in his playing career? I'm pretty sure he was a batsman. If whatmore (a former Australian international unlike Siddons who never played for his country) could get our bowlers to perform why can't siddons?

The truth is the buck ha to stop somewhere and siddons is under immense pressure. Siddons is head coach, not a development coach or a bowling coach, so results do matter. Nobody would be making such a fuss if BD were winning matches. t is as a result of this pressure that Siddons is forced to go on the defensive by inventing statistics to back up his position!

Isn't there a famous line that goes "comment is free, but facts are sacred"? Siddons is not a politician, if Miraz bhai is right about thoe stats he should rightly be questioned on why he got such absurd figures.

If we continue to fail to win matches by the end of 2008, then the BCB would be quite right to look at why they are paying Siddons so much for delivering so little....