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  #1  
Old October 18, 2009, 07:00 AM
Equinox Equinox is offline
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Default Bangladesh - Myanmar Tensions

What do you make of it? What are your solutions to diffuse the situation?

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesig...php?nid=110245
Quote:
M Abul Kalam Azad
Bangladesh Rifles authorities have identified the St Martin's Island as the probable main target of Myanmar and asked the government to immediately strengthen its defence by constructing aircraft landing zones and concrete bunkers.

In a strategic proposal that came in the wake of constant military build-up and intimidation by Myanmar, the BDR has also urged the government to increase defence capability of land and sea borders to repulse any possible aggression by the neighbouring country.

Marking 148km stretch of border with Myanmar and India as unguarded, the border force has suggested setting up temporary frontier camps until a new battalion is set up in Ali Kadam area as per the BDR restructuring proposal.

To safeguard the country's territorial sovereignty, the BDR has sorted out short-, mid- and long-term measures.

It has requested the government to arm the paramilitary force with more manpower and modern military equipment.

The St Martin's Island, the only coral island of the country and the main attraction for local and foreign tourists for its panoramic beauty and pristine marine life, is under the jurisdiction of the Coastguards. The island, which is located in a mineral rich region in the Bay of Bengal, is just about 8km west of the northwest coast of Myanmar.

The BDR has submitted its proposal to the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Prime Minister's Office, the navy and air force headquarters and the director general of Coastguards.

The proposal says Myanmar military often crosses the zero line at the Bandarban frontier and carry out operations to combat various separatist organisations. Apart from erecting barbed-wire fences and mobilising army unilaterally, the Myanmar authorities are forcing their nationals to enter Bangladesh territory.

The BDR has suggested designating responsibilities and areas of jurisdiction of the Coastguards and BDR and making intelligence activities of various agencies faster and stronger.

A senior home ministry official yesterday said the Prime Minister's Office is dealing with the "very sensitive and serious matter".

As short-term plans the BDR has suggested increasing and strengthening overall border patrol to prevent Myanmar nationals or groups from entering Bangladesh territory. It has also recommended identifying the routes of refugees and deploying additional patrol teams.

For quick evaluation of the situation and making decisions, the BDR has suggested incorporating army officers in the existing border outposts along the border with Myanmar.

The other suggestions include reinforcement of police personnel in the bordering Ukhiya and Teknaf upazilas and additional police patrol on the Cox's Bazar-Teknaf Highway, and involving locals including lawmakers, elites, upazila chairmen and members to build awareness against push-in of Rohingya refugees.

"Stern actions should be taken against locals who help refugees come and stay in Bangladesh," says the proposal.

The BDR has suggested erecting barbed-wire fences along the border as a mid-term measure.

The proposed long-term measures include signing an agreement with Myanmar on border security like the 1975 agreement with India, accelerating diplomatic efforts to put pressure on the Myanmar government to resolve the Rohingya crisis and construction of ring roads between border outposts and camps.

To tackle the current tension on the border with Myanmar, the BDR authorities have urged the government to allocate necessary budget for immediate implementation of the short-term plans.

Prof Imtiaz Ahmed of international relations department of Dhaka University said Myanmar is an "isolated state that has minimum links with the international community and has been ruled by military for 20 years".

"Such a country can do anything anytime and Bangladesh should have all kinds of preparations," he said.

"Little diplomatic and political attention has been paid to Myanmar so far. After the BDR proposals, it seems that serious attention is now being paid to Myanmar," said Imtiaz.
According to BDR Intelligence, St. Martin's Island is a possible target for the Burmese.
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  #2  
Old October 18, 2009, 07:41 AM
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খুবি কষ্ট লাগে যখন দেখি মায়ান্মায়-ভারত আমাদের সমুদ্রসীমা, আমাদের সম্পদ নিয়ে হম্বি-তম্বি করছে অথচ আমাদের সরকার আলোচনার নামে কালক্ষেপণ ছাড়া আর কিছুই করতে পারছে না। বাংলাদেশের জনগণ যেখানে দেশের সার্বভৌমত্ব রক্ষার জন্য জান-মাল বিসর্জন দিতে প্রস্তুত, সেখানে আমাদের সরকারের এই গাফেলতি, ভীরুতা আর রাজনৈতিক দলদুলোর মধ্যে সার্বভৌমত্বের মত বিষয় নিয়ে একতার বদলে এটাকে রাজনৈতিক ইস্যু হিসেবে ব্যবহার করে কাঁদা চ্ছোড়াছুড়ির ঘটনা খুবি দুঃখজনক। বাংলাদেশের মানুষের কপালটাই এরকম।
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  #3  
Old October 18, 2009, 07:45 AM
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This concerns me extremely to say the least! We need to keep a sharp eye on these Burmese Juantas, democracy-murdering, human rights violating shameless dictators' movement and activity around our Bangladesh! First you violate all human rights laws of modern civilization against your own great people's leader Aung San Suu Kyi and house arrest her endlessly, take away her freedom and basic fundamental civil rights, then second, you low lives weak war-mongers shoot and torture your own society's/tradition's most respectable sacred Buddhist monks and priests just because you are too afraid to pick a real fight with someone of you own size and violate them because they spoke out against your worng doing, AND NOW you fools staring at our Bangladesh's Saint Martin's Island, well keep staring, this time you picked the wrong people to fudge with, you haven't seen our elephants yet!! Myanmar, one advice for you, pull your greedy toung back in before you lose it the Karnafuli river or Kaptai Lake or the Bay of Bengal!!! Too late we will make burmese soup and Crab Rangoon (with extra soy-sauce) out of those Myanmar Juantas!
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  #4  
Old October 18, 2009, 08:31 AM
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আশংকাটা আসলেই ভীতিকর। বার্মিজ আর্মির মুভমেন্ট অনেকদিন ধরেই চলছে। নিয়মিতভাবে রোহীঙ্গাদের বাংলাদেশে অনুপ্রবেশ ঘটানো হচ্ছে। নানা সূত্রে খবর পাওয়া যাচ্ছে যে এদের মধ্যে দাগী অপরাধী ধরনের রোহীঙ্গাও রয়েছে।

আপাতত সেন্ট মার্টিনের কথা উল্লেখ করলেও সামগ্রিক ভাবে ভবিষ্যতের জন্য চট্টগ্রাম বন্দরও ঝুকির মধ্যে আছে।

কয়েকটি উল্লেখযোগ্য বিষয় আমলে নেয়া উচিতঃ

১। এই বছরে সংঘটিত তথাকথিত BDR বিদ্রোহ। যার দ্বারা BDR এর কাঠামো সম্পূর্ণ ধ্বংস হয়ে গিয়েছে। অসমর্থিত সূত্রে সামরিক বিশেষজ্ঞদের কাছে পাওয়া খবর অনুযায়ী এই হত্যাযজ্ঞের পরিকল্পনা নিঃসন্দেহে একজন 2 star General এর দ্বারা হয়েছে। ঘটনা প্রবাহ দেখে বিশেষজ্ঞদের তাই মনে হয়েছে।

২। গভীর সমুদ্রের সীমানা সংক্রান্ত বাংলাদেশ-ভারত-মায়ানমার বিরোধ।

৩। গত বেশ কয়েক মাস ধরে সিমান্তের কাছে বার্মিজ আর্মির মুভমেন্ট। বর্ডারে মায়ানমার কর্তৃক মাইন পোতার অভিযোগ।

৪। রোহীঙ্গা অনুপ্রবেশের হার উত্তোরত্তর বৃদ্ধি।

৫। মার্কিনীদের সাথে মায়ানমারের জান্তার সম্পর্ক উন্নয়ন। মার্কিনীদের মায়ানমার নীতির পরিবর্তনের সুস্পষ্ঠ ইঙ্গিত।

উপরোক্ত পয়েন্টগুলো একটি সমীকরনের ইঙ্গিত দিচ্ছে। সাম্ভাব্য পরিস্থিতি সামলানোর যথেষ্ঠ যোগত্যা কি বর্তমান সরকার দেখাতে পারবে? ইতিমধ্যেই দূর্বল রূপে চিহ্নিত পররাষ্ট্র মন্ত্রলায় এবং এর মাথা কি পারবে কূটনৈতিক এই চ্যালেঞ্জ নিতে?
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  #5  
Old October 18, 2009, 09:40 AM
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Myanmar is a fly. Just catch it.
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Old October 18, 2009, 09:59 AM
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This is obviously not good. Hopefully it diffuses out soon.
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Old October 18, 2009, 02:37 PM
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guys dont worry burma is to scared to do anything..
bangladesh is prepared nw
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  #8  
Old October 18, 2009, 05:20 PM
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A military confrontation against Myanmar would be an extremely difficult and costly undertaking for Bangladesh - Just to clear any misconception there.

Now, from a broader geo-political view, I would like to bring this perspective to you guys that are talking here:

Once a government becomes the owner of some loose change, the country becomes a potential buyer of arms. A market. To exploit the market, there needs to be a potential of confrontation, skirmish, heightened tension, border dispute etc.

Imagine the grin on some of the western faces when Turkey is made to think that it is an honor and a prestige issue for Turkey to bomb neighboring Iraq. Wow ! How good was that ? It is like seeing your enemy beating himself up with his own hands !

Now, Bangladesh already have some manufactured conflicts with India. The question is why Myanmar? Well, for 3 reasons, mainly.

1. India has been given the Stewardship of the whole region. We are now the mere subjects of the shadow Indus Empire. Therefore, India presently can not be used as a strategy ploy. Besides, India is already being played - against the pakis.

2. If Bangladesh engages with Myanmar - that's like 2 birds in one stone. The government of Bangladesh can be relived of the loose cash that is burning a hole in their pockets. Sell some junk to them. At the same time, Bangladesh can be used to help topple the regime in Myanmar, thus, a more agreeable puppet can be placed there.

3. What a nice little shaft up the Red China's you-know-what that would be ! Trumping the Chinese in their own backyard. Now that would be nice !

Therefore, time is ripe for us to have a misadventure against Myanmar. It's been a long time making. If we project this thought a few years into the future, we should foresee some of the up and coming events in the next few years.


- Increase activities by the arms vendors of the world in the region.
- Purchase of weaponry by Bangladesh & Myanmar
- Use of the United Nations to manufacture a stalemate where use of force by either nation becomes a viable option
- Creation of ground level activism in both countries so situation becomes explosive. Local mafia, terror groups, mercenaries, cross-border smuggling of weapons, shooting etc are to become more frequent.
- I can also see an increase of courting of Bangladesh by the Western nations.

- There is a small chance that China will see through the ploy and ask Myanmar not to play the game and stand down.

What we are seeing today is about the last 30% of a staged show. It began some times ago. Bangladeshi leaders are not idiots. They see this coming also. Bangladesh has always walked a tightrope of neutrality in the world power games. This will be put to the test and maximum restraint will be needed.

There is a cost for confrontation, there is a cost in avoiding it also.
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  #9  
Old October 18, 2009, 05:57 PM
Equinox Equinox is offline
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Things are certainly heating up...

http://www.bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidRecord=289775
Quote:
Warlike situation on BD-Myanmar border-Myanmar army prepares 8-km minefield
Around 5,500 to 6,000 Myanmarese soldiers were deployed across the Bangladesh border

Sunday October 18 2009 23:23:46 PM BDT

A warlike situation prevails on the Bangladesh-Myanmar frontier as Myanmar's army was learnt to have prepared an eight-kilometer minefield and evacuated around 500 people from their bordering villages, apparently as disputes over ownership of a part of the Bay of Bengal heightened.(UNB, Dhaka)

Sources from the country's southeastern frontier told UNB Sunday evening that around 5,500 to 6,000 Myanmarese soldiers were deployed across the Bangladesh border. Myanmar also shored up its naval strength in the sea area.

The contentions compounded when Bangladesh is leasing out offshore gas blocks to two foreign companies for exploration within the country's territorial waters in the Bay.

One source apprehends that the Myanmar military may invade the lower tip (Dumdunia under Noapara union) of Teknaf as a strategy of putting up bargain with Bangladesh on the disputed maritime boundary, as Dhaka took the demarcation issue up for UN arbitration alongside negotiations with the claimant neighbors. A reliable source from the frontier town of Teknaf said three battalions of Bangladesh army today (Sunday) conducted recce in Gundum, Chakdal and Marichapalong areas of Teknaf to locate the strategic positions.

However, the source said, "Preparation on the Bangladesh side is not strong enough compared to the Myanmar side."

The sources said the strength of Bangladesh navy and army combined is greater than those of Myanmar, but the Bangladesh side needs adequate preparation to face any eventuality.

They said Myanmar authorities are erecting barbed-wire fences within their territory across the Bangladesh border. On the sidelines of ACD meeting in Colombo, the Myanmar Foreign Minister and Bangladesh Foreign Minister Dipu Moni had a meeting last Friday when the former said their troops were doing "routine work".

Last week, State Minister for Home Affairs Shamsul Huq Tuku ruled out reasons for getting worried but said there must be alert in place over the reported Myanmar security buildups.

And btw that is a great post by Billah. Opens up a whole new perspective.
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Old October 18, 2009, 06:54 PM
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This indeed is a very concerning issue for our country. We should be prepared for any scenario to defend our territorial sovereignty, particularly against a rogue nation like Myanmar. Hopefully the gov't is taking the matter seriously. My bro-in-law who is a Lt. Col in the Army will be visiting the UK soon on official matter. I'll speak to him about what's really going on down there.
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Old October 18, 2009, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatebreed
This indeed is a very concerning issue for our country. We should be prepared for any scenario to defend our territorial sovereignty, particularly against a rogue nation like Myanmar. Hopefully the gov't is taking the matter seriously. My bro-in-law who is a Lt. Col in the Army will be visiting the UK soon on official matter. I'll speak to him about what's really going on down there.
HB: I think you'll find out that they do not entertain the idea of fighting the Nasaka.
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Old October 18, 2009, 09:50 PM
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A few things to keep in mind:

Myanmar remains a nation where China and India are jockeying for influence, with China largely enjoying the upper hand (India was previously supporting the pro-democracy movements there, and has only recently shifted to a more realist, i.e. being-friendly-with-the-military-regime, policy). That said, Myanmar is by no means a Chinese vassal or client state yet -- the Burmese are far too nationalistic; and that leads me to suspect that these Burmese military movements are largely intimidation tactics/testing feints, initiated by the junta themselves. The goal appears to be either to intimidate us into making some concessions (perhaps in the case of our territorial waters; see below), or to try to seize some of our assets/territories (but only if we appear unprepared, non-responsive, or intimidated) which might subsequently be used as bargaining chips to try to gain concessions.

Note that Myanmar had initially sent four South Korean energy exploration vessels escorted by two of their own naval vessels into one of our southern gas sea blocks. Deployment of five Bangladesh Navy ships to the area, in combination with our sending of a high powered diplomatic delegation to Myanmar (Foreign Secretary and two Navy Commodores) to caution them against breaching our territories, resulted in the withdrawal of the Burmese vessels. Our Foreign Ministry also contacted the Chinese and South Korean Foreign Ministries regarding this matter and that led to the South Korean company withdrawing its exploration vessels. Personally, I believe that was handled quite well -- we showed that we were quite willing and capable of defending our territorial waters, yet resolved the matter diplomatically without escalating to violence.

I think that is largely the approach we should take with their military buildups near the border -- make it quite obvious (without unilaterally escalating to violence) that we are quite capable of repelling any of their incursions (most neutral observers agree that we do enjoy military superiority over them), while continuing to maintain diplomatic relations.

But, as billah has indirectly suggested, in the long run it behooves us best to try to use China's influence to dampen Myanmar's ambitions. After all, it is not at all in China's interests, with whom we have a defence co-operation treaty, and who sees us as an ally/asset in her long-term strategic goals, to have two of her allies fighting one another.
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Old October 18, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
HB: I think you'll find out that they do not entertain the idea of fighting the Nasaka.
Ultimately the decision to 'fight' lies with those in charge of the army, including the gov't. Hopefully the situation can be resolved peacefully.
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Old October 19, 2009, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaad
A few things to keep in mind:
After all, it is not at all in China's interests, with whom we have a defence co-operation treaty, and who sees us as an ally/asset in her long-term strategic goals, to have two of her allies fighting one another.
One point to note here: the defence co-op treaty practically fell on it's face. even that, during the Khaleda Zia regime, regime that felt quite accomplished in reviving some co-operations with China. It died a slow deth largely due to inactivity on our part. We had an opportunity to build something with China at that time.

A defence-treaty, unlike an non-aggression treaty, can not just stand on air. We never handed China a "shopping-list", no joint exercise, nothing, other than small arms, spare parts etc. There haven't even been any exchange of experts of any significant scale. The "treaty" pretty much lingered on paper.

I think it's because Khaleda regime used the "Look East" factor as card to trump India. Once they felt that this was accomplished, there was never an urgency to maximize the benefits of the Chinese relationship.
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Old October 19, 2009, 03:45 AM
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Could someone give me a frank military assessment as to where our armed forces stand compared to that of Myanmar's (and others in the region)? I know that the burmese junta have been buying killing toys like crazy so I'm guessing they have a vastly superior force than ours?
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Old October 19, 2009, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samircreep
Could someone give me a frank military assessment as to where our armed forces stand compared to that of Myanmar's (and others in the region)? I know that the burmese junta have been buying killing toys like crazy so I'm guessing they have a vastly superior force than ours?
Yes. No doubt about that. Their army is far more superior than ours. That country is running based on military power.
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Old October 19, 2009, 06:48 AM
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Given that they are a hard core military junta, they can afford to spend even 90% of their GDP on their army. And they are also very pro-China and vice versa
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Old October 19, 2009, 06:53 AM
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I believe Bangladesh has a larger overall military force, however Burma does have the advantage of being a military regieme.
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Old October 19, 2009, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samircreep
Could someone give me a frank military assessment as to where our armed forces stand compared to that of Myanmar's (and others in the region)? I know that the burmese junta have been buying killing toys like crazy so I'm guessing they have a vastly superior force than ours?
Quote:
Originally Posted by auntu
Yes. No doubt about that. Their army is far more superior than ours. That country is running based on military power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akib
I believe Bangladesh has a larger overall military force, however Burma does have the advantage of being a military regieme.
Someone better informed than me can provide more details, but here is what I know.

The Burmese army is larger -- ~400,000 men compared to our ~200,000, but ours is considered by some third party observers to be better trained and more mobile; in addition, internal ethnic conflicts and territorial disputes with Thailand preclude Myanmar from focusing most of its army on our shared border (roughly half of the Burmese army are stationed to act as a bulwark against Thailand).

We currently appear to have naval superiority (reported by Nayeem from bdmilitary.com; note that bdmilitary.com is not an official armed forces page).
Frigates: Bangladesh 5, Myanmar 1
Corvette/OPV: Bangladesh 6, Myanmar 4
FACMs: Bangladesh 10, Myanmar 6
FACGs: Bangladesh 8, Myanmar 5
FACTs: Bangladesh 7, Myanmar -
Anti-mines: Bangladesh 5, Myanmar 3
Auxillaries: Bangladesh 9, Myanmar 6
Coastal patrol craft: Bangladesh 25, Myanmar 22
Personnel: Bangladesh Navy -30,000; Myanmar Navy - 16,000

And while the Bangladesh Air Force and Myanmar might have similar equipment (primarily Mig-29s and Chinese F-7s for air superiority, and A-7s for ground attacks), they appear to have the edge in numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Air_Force, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myanmar_Air_Force).
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  #20  
Old October 19, 2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntu
Yes. No doubt about that. Their army is far more superior than ours. That country is running based on military power.
I'm sorry, their army is far ill equpped than ours. Training and Efficiency wise as well. It needs a few hours for our navy & air force to make them grounded. Their ground force will be a bit efficient in guarila nature of war as they are very familiar with the terrain there. But they will never seek for an engagement with our army; they just disturb the BDR in the border who are ill equiped and in efficient as we know.
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Old October 19, 2009, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billah
One point to note here: the defence co-op treaty practically fell on it's face. even that, during the Khaleda Zia regime, regime that felt quite accomplished in reviving some co-operations with China. It died a slow deth largely due to inactivity on our part. We had an opportunity to build something with China at that time.

A defence-treaty, unlike an non-aggression treaty, can not just stand on air. We never handed China a "shopping-list", no joint exercise, nothing, other than small arms, spare parts etc. There haven't even been any exchange of experts of any significant scale. The "treaty" pretty much lingered on paper.

I think it's because Khaleda regime used the "Look East" factor as card to trump India. Once they felt that this was accomplished, there was never an urgency to maximize the benefits of the Chinese relationship.
billah, no disagreement there. However, there is still considerable scope for going the diplomatic route and bringing Chinese influence to bear, since China is not overly happy with Myanmar at present (see below). Now, whether our current administration goes that route (given their previous leanings), remains to be seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
Given that they are a hard core military junta, they can afford to spend even 90% of their GDP on their army. And they are also very pro-China and vice versa
Banglatiger, this is no longer quite right. Refer to the recent Kokang Incident and current Burma-China relations, and you will see that the Myanmar junta appears to be becoming disillusioned with Beijing and trying to become less dependent on China, while attempting to forge commercial and strategic alliances with other countries like India (see also this Asia Times report). This offers us some slight diplomatic leverage, but as I said earlier, much depends upon how our current administration runs with it.
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Old October 19, 2009, 08:44 AM
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Bhais, please don't get mad at me or don't think I am joking, I think WE should go into Rangoon and turn the evil Junta into jarred processed boroi achar that I used to see being sold at the Burmese market in Chittagong in the 70's and hand'em over to U.N. foir war crime and crime against humanity, against it's own people and then hand over the country to Aung San Suu Kyi and the good people of Myanmar and the good sacred Buddhist monks and say, "thank you, we love you, good bye"!
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Old October 19, 2009, 08:51 AM
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Shanti chai Shanti......r balo lagena...
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Old October 19, 2009, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bujhee kom
Bhais, please don't get mad at me or don't think I am joking, I think WE should go into Rangoon and turn the evil Junta into jarred processed boroi achar that I used to see being sold at the Burmese market in Chittagong in the 70's and hand'em over to U.N. foir war crime and crime against humanity, against it's own people and then hand over the country to Aung San Suu Kyi and the good people of Myanmar and the good sacred Buddhist monks and say, "thank you, we love you, good bye"!
Not yet, BK. When the sea levels start rising, and most of our verdant delta becomes submerged, then and only then will it be time for us to *ahem* bring democracy to Myanmar. Of course, that might require us to stay in Myanmar to ensure that democracy continues to be practiced, na? Er, I suppose I should mention that I was joking, for the irony-impaired.

On a more serious note though, I like being the citizen of a nation that has never fought any expansionist wars. The only engagements that we have been involved in have been the war for our liberation, and UN-sanctioned missions. If the UN sanctions a mission to remove the junta from power, then yes, perhaps we can participate. But otherwise, unlike some other more arrogant nations, I see no reason to invade the sovereign territory of another nation. That's a trip down a slippery slope (Why stop at Myanmar? What about all the other "evil" regimes in the world?) if I ever heard one, and I'd much rather we, as a nation, focus ourselves primarily on improving our own lot, before worrying about others.
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Old October 19, 2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaad
...

We currently appear to have naval superiority (reported by Nayeem from bdmilitary.com; note that bdmilitary.com is not an official armed forces page).
Frigates: Bangladesh 5, Myanmar 1
Corvette/OPV: Bangladesh 6, Myanmar 4
FACMs: Bangladesh 10, Myanmar 6
FACGs: Bangladesh 8, Myanmar 5
FACTs: Bangladesh 7, Myanmar -
Anti-mines: Bangladesh 5, Myanmar 3
Auxillaries: Bangladesh 9, Myanmar 6
Coastal patrol craft: Bangladesh 25, Myanmar 22
Personnel: Bangladesh Navy -30,000; Myanmar Navy - 16,000

And while the Bangladesh Air Force and Myanmar might have similar equipment (primarily Mig-29s and Chinese F-7s for air superiority, and A-7s for ground attacks), they appear to have the edge in numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Air_Force, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myanmar_Air_Force).
Shaad bhai, I am going to add to your post.

Millitary superiority means very little.
BD-Pakistan.
Iraq-Iran.
Soviet-Afgan.
US-Afgan.

From the past, Battle of Badr and so many others.

The only thing matters is the cause.
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