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Forget Cricket Talk about anything [within Board Rules, of course :) ]

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  #201  
Old February 23, 2004, 09:00 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Suppose it explicitly stated that Earth revolves around the sun.. Then Quran would be false to men in the era when people belived Earth was flat....
Holy...! That is the wackiest self-psycho-brainwashing I have seen in a while.

If the Quran is really the purveyor of absolute truth, what should be Quran's priority: to boldly promote the truth or to conform to what the 6th century Arab thinks as true? Why would Allah care whether what he says seems false to some puny Arabs in 6th century A.D.?

Orpheus, please, stop self-mutilating your brain cells. It's painful to watch.
  #202  
Old February 23, 2004, 09:08 AM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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That was a poor reasoning.
  #203  
Old February 23, 2004, 09:11 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Why?
  #204  
Old February 23, 2004, 09:14 AM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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I meant that was a poor reasoning from Orpheus.
  #205  
Old February 23, 2004, 10:29 AM
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Do your own research and formulate your own theory!

Quote:
Peace and don't ask question that have already been discussed. READ first and then ASK.... or even give your expert opinion...
It must be understood that a very simple and average rated human being like me neither may be able to explain about the Holy Quran, nor I would ever try to explain it.

Do I have the right to ask question as a muslim or as a human being?

The education of a child begins with asking stupid questions; and although I am trying to understand Quran for almost 11 years now, I am still a child to find its Scientific value.

Please consider my effort to understand Quran, I read it completely twice in Arabic, twice in Bangla, and at least three times from different translation available on the web; excluding the numerous number ot times I went through it for references.

The reasoning is obvious. The book is an important one for me and for my own sake, I need to reveal the truth.

The questions that I asked are again here. Only anyone, who really knows about the holy Quran may enlighten me. Please consider that a bad way of discussion may also be disrespectful to it (the holy quran).

1. Does Quran depict the fact about Origin of Life or origin the of Universe or Expanding or fate of the Universe or Big Bang?
2.If yes, if those facts have been discovered only after the invention by the scientists or the scientists knew them before from the Holy Quran and only justified them ?

[Edited on 2/23/2004 by adnan]
  #206  
Old February 24, 2004, 02:03 AM
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Please consider my effort to understand Quran, I read it completely twice in Arabic, twice in Bangla, and at least three times from different translation available on the web; excluding the numerous number ot times I went through it for references.
Your effort is praise worthy. Did you find anything noteworthy?
  #207  
Old February 24, 2004, 06:42 AM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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adnan bhai.. ami boli ki aar apni bujen ki? Ei thread e (along with some others in forget cricket), we have already discussed the issues that you are raising!

Repetition is boring! so please share your thought regarding Big Bang, Big Crunch ittadi ittadi... knowledgeable viewpoints are always welcome!

and LOL on the replies to my Quran comment
  #208  
Old February 24, 2004, 07:39 AM
Mridul Mridul is offline
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Quote:
Do I have the right to ask question as a muslim or as a human being?
Yes Adnan bhai...u have the right to ask questions. Check out these videos. Start it from introduction. It might enlighten ur knowledge. May God bless you.
  #209  
Old February 24, 2004, 12:32 PM
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Dear Mridul,
Thank you for the link.

I watched the videos a few weeks ago as I remember and I must say they are very good as animation movies. But I didnt find any *decisive* claim. Also I wrote an email to Mr. Harun to justify his claims, but he never answered. May be its also because he didnt have time or whatever.

To compare such kind of claims, I may offer you to visit some christian or hindu web sites where you will find many such close verses where they try to prove that the Bible/GIta/whatever stated Scientific theories many hundred years ago.

Once again, the easy way to justify such claims is to answer the following question:

If these Scientific facts (or even a single of them!!!) have been discovered only after the invention by the scientists?

or

the scientists knew them before by reading them from the Holy Quran/Bible/whatever and only justified them later?




[Edited on 2/24/2004 by adnan]
  #210  
Old February 24, 2004, 01:35 PM
Mridul Mridul is offline
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...as far as my understanding...and knowledge uptil now...i dont know the answers of ur questions..

... Quran is the word of God....it is what I believe as a Muslim....i dont need any scienctific evidences/miralce in the Quran to believe it....if someone tries to read and understand the meaning of Quran...then he/she will come to know...its not just a ordinary book...its a book from God....

....when God sent Torah and Bible through Prophet Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them)....HE also gave them some superficial power...people observed their miracles and they believed them....however Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)...did not get any superficial power from God....when people asked Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) to show them miracles.....He said that Quran is the miracle....if u recite Quran in Arabic...u will find rythms in the verses.....its the beauty of It....Quran was not written by Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)...cuz He was illitearte...He did not know how to write or read....

...we human created computers..setalite.....but who created us?...there is a CREATOR who created everything in the universe....and Torah...Bible...Quran...are all from God.....among them Quran is the last revelation of God...
  #211  
Old February 24, 2004, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
....if u recite Quran in Arabic...u will find rythms in the verses.....
Yes this is one of the beauty. Shakespearer 14 line sonnet pore Manush pagol hoi.... Eita naki unbelievable...God given... faggot likhe nai. But when it comes to Quran... Muhammad wrote it... that's silly!

And adnan man.. giving it in bold do not make your question any more intelligent. Like I said, all these subjects have been discussed on this thread if I remember correctly. And I don't know why you repeating that 12-years old type kid question over and over again.....
(sorry but I would have tried to give you a better response if I was home)

You did not find a single "decisive" claim. Did you find a single "decisive" contradiction with modern knowledge? Please share with us and hopefully it's not a translation from one of your college buddies. Dr. Maurice Bucaille's didn't find any contradiction. And he wasn't even Muslim, so no agenda either. Totallly neutral perspective!
  #212  
Old February 24, 2004, 03:18 PM
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Dear Mridul,
One very important thing you mentioned that Quran need not to be scientific, it actually deprives Quran's pride because even a child can imagine that all those claimed Scientific facts have only been stated after their invention.

Quran/Bible/whatever are not a Scientific book.

Before I try to reveal some mathematical informations about the Quran (you may know I like math in anything ), I have another question based on your conclusion about creation.

You assumed that there must be a GOD, otherwise we cant find a reason or cause who/which creates us, the question is

Who creates the GOD?


Orpheus, you are trying to attack me personally I think with your words. If possible answer my questions to the point please or just ignore my posts.

Repetition of question comes when they are not understood.

For your kind information, I feel to use bold again.

Dr. Bucaili did not accept muslim religion even though he discovered so many miracles of Quran.







[Edited on 2/24/2004 by adnan]
  #213  
Old February 24, 2004, 03:28 PM
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He does not need to accept Islam in order for his reasoning to be valid. Should I bold it?
  #214  
Old February 24, 2004, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by adnan
Who creates the GOD?
[Edited on 2/24/2004 by adnan]
Adnan, your aren't the first person to ask this question. This is a very common question in all sort of religious debate. One of the prime arguments that the atheist use (not that I am saying you are atheist).

I am short on time now, I will try to answer it as short as possible:

1. Human Existence:
How do you know you exist at all? Is it because you can see/smell/touch/hear/taste the world around you? The fact is we can never be 100% sure of our existence. We exist/or not exist in a void of nothingness. The world around us is a result of our senses. We can never validate the existence of any matter in this world. Because there is no 3rd party viewer, neither can you come out of your shell and be above of your senses. You are nothing but the slave of your senses. Please consider the "Matrix" situation

2. Does matter exist?
Existence of matter is also driven by our senses. Because we can see a table and touch it, doesn't mean it exists. You can see and touch a table in your dream but that table doesn't exist. Just because you are awake now and you are using your "real" senses (not the dream senses) doesn't give any validity to the claim that the table exist. Matter's existence is as much an illusion as your dream is.

3. Where is the space and time?
The notion of space and time is also an illusion, guided by our senses and our living life. We believe everything grows old as the time passes. And the tide of time is continuous. Like matter space and time is also illusion created in our mind. Your walking around the room in 3 dimensions does not prove that space exist, because your perception of walking is driven by your senses and we already established you cannot prove the perceptions of your senses. Similarly time is an imaginary concept that relates us to this world of illusion.

4. Who is GOD?
GOD is the One Who initiates/repeats this illusion for those who are alive in this world. The purpose for this illusion as described in 3 major religion is the test. When He does not repeat the illusion of sensory perception to you, you die in this world. You become free of the sensory illusion.

5. Who created GOD?
Our knowledge and our existence is bound by the laws and rules set forth by our Creator. We cannot come out of that because then we would have to die and get out of this sensory illusion. Due to this restriction you cannot find the answer to who created GOD. You can never have required information to ask this question. In this sensory illusion only thing possible for you to do is either:
a) decide that there is GOD who initiates/repeats this world of illusion
OR
b) decide that there is no GOD and existence of matter is absolute where the world is governed by itself

Thus, it becomes a rhetorical question to ask who created GOD. There are many other similar question, eg: Can God create a stone that He cannot lift?

Thus, before you ask a question you must remember the rules that you are bound to.

Hopefully this clarified some of the issues.

Nasif
  #215  
Old February 24, 2004, 04:15 PM
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Navarene Navarene is offline
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Did any of you guys read Aroj Ali Matobbor? Or his book "Shotter Shondhaney" to be in precise. I think that reading this book would spice up the debate of Nasif's thoughts.
  #216  
Old February 24, 2004, 04:34 PM
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Who are the writers? But really "Aroj Ali Matobbar"?

By the way, none of the above is my discovery. These have been talked about for centuries, starting with Plato, remember "Plato's cave"? Most provocative of them being Decartes Meditations. Here is a link to read some quickly
http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/dcarg.htm
  #217  
Old February 24, 2004, 04:44 PM
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adnan adnan is offline
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Nav bhai,

That book was one the best rational books ever written by a non-educated person.

THe translation of his book may be read from the following link:

http://www.humanists.net/avijit/aroj...r_truth_1.html
  #218  
Old February 24, 2004, 05:32 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
1. Human Existence:
How do you know you exist at all? Is it because you can see/smell/touch/hear/taste the world around you? The fact is we can never be 100% sure of our existence. We exist/or not exist in a void of nothingness. The world around us is a result of our senses. We can never validate the existence of any matter in this world. Because there is no 3rd party viewer, neither can you come out of your shell and be above of your senses. You are nothing but the slave of your senses. Please consider the "Matrix" situation
Here's what I think of your wonderful theory. It's the hallucination of a Matrix nerd on weed who is almost on the verge of a lobotomy.

NO, the matrix situation will NOT be considered seriously because OUR REAL LIFE IS NOT LIKE THE MATRIX.

I think that you don't really believe in that crap. There are mental patients who think like that. I don't think you are one of them.
  #219  
Old February 24, 2004, 05:46 PM
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The problem with nasif's logic is very clear.

With considering everything to be very unrealistic and doubtful, how could you say that your believed GOD is the real one? Or, how could you even realize GOD within your boundary?

You cant ask GOD's existance cause you are bounded but How do find him? Why god gives the ability to find him but not to prove his existance ?

When its existance of matter, you throw out the idea of "matrix" but when its about GOD, how could you be so sure?
Actually your claim goes reversely back to you. Your claim proves that the believe GOD which you can see/smell/hear/read can only be an illusion.



Because everything is illusion according to you, it makes no sense to discuss any rational debate with you.



[Edited on 2/25/2004 by adnan]
  #220  
Old February 24, 2004, 05:46 PM
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LOL, I knew that was coming.

As I have stated before, none of the above was my discovery. Just stating what others have been saying since dawn of time.

In any event, I do truely believe in that "crap" 100%. It is a choice that I have made some years ago.

That doesn't mean apathy has crept into me. On the contrary, winning the illusion is everything but apathy.
  #221  
Old February 24, 2004, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by adnan
Why god gives the ability to find him but not to prove his existance ?

Why do you believe in Islam? Not hindu or christian?

All illusion?

Because everything is illusion according to you, it makes no sense to discuss any rational debate with you.
Aparently, you haven't clicked on the Decartes' link that I provied and neither did you delve into the matter in depth. You keep on asking the rhetoric question over and over again. That doesn't strengthen your point. You asked one question before about God's own creation and I answered it. Now you are asking how God gives the ability to us to find him, and why do I believe in Islam. Just circular question.

I fail to see what has me believing in Islam got anything to do with this discussion. In any event I will let you know why I believe in Islam in due time.
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