facebook Twitter RSS Feed YouTube StumbleUpon

Home | Forum | Chat | Tours | Articles | Pictures | News | Tools | History | Tourism | Search

 
 


Go Back   BanglaCricket Forum > Miscellaneous > Forget Cricket

Forget Cricket Talk about anything [within Board Rules, of course :) ]

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old November 21, 2003, 12:30 PM
oracle oracle is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: July 25, 2003
Location: U.A.E
Posts: 3,750

Quote:
Our brain was developed to the extent that we were able to live and propagate. Not anything more than that. It's the legacy of evolution.
Yes quite right. Psychology and the study of the brain are the least developed areas of science. It is truly astonishing how the human race has survived and got this far. I mean compliance in society and social proof is an element in every religious practice, but it would be interesting to see if evolution is capable of taking humans to another level than what has been witnessed in the past. I am alluding to new found studies in the area of Meditation and it's effects on the brain.
  #27  
Old November 21, 2003, 12:30 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069
Default Umm no Nasif, that\'s not how it was done

This page tells you exactly how it was done, including step by step pictures:

http://hubblesite.org/sci.d.tech/beh.../catseye.shtml

The Catís Eye Nebula consists of glowing gases ejected into outer space by a dying star. Individual chemical elements in the nebula emit light at very specific wavelengths.

The three black-and-white images used to construct this image represent light from hydrogen atoms, oxygen atoms, and nitrogen ions (nitrogen atoms with one electron removed).

All three images correspond to different shades of red light, so we enhanced the color differences to make the nebulaís delicate structures more obvious.

In this case, light from hydrogen atoms is shown in red, light from oxygen is shown in blue, and light from nitrogen is shown in green.


On a different note: I partially take back my point that Hubble doesn't have RGB detectors. It doesn't have such a thing per se but it does detect the whole visible spectrum and much more.

This is how it works, it basically can filter a specific wavelegth of light when it's processign an image. That means it can produce infinite number of images of the same picture with infinitely different wavelengths. The scientists pick SOME of these images, the ones that THEY deem most important, and then ASSIGN colors to those (not according to their corresponding wavelgths mind you).

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Arnab]
  #28  
Old November 21, 2003, 12:34 PM
Unknown's Avatar
Unknown Unknown is offline
ODI Cricketer
 
Join Date: November 21, 2003
Location: Blue Moon
Posts: 509
Default EVOLUTION???

Arnab... I knew you would bring Evolution into this.... Evolution is an unproven theory which Darwin came up with, now, you believe in evolution... the UNSEEN, THE UNKNOWN.

You can never prove for certain that Evolution occurred becuase there are too many erronous details in the evolution theory.

Natural selection is a load of garbabe that makes as much sense as XYZ itself.

You see, for evolution to work, you need to have many assumptions. Not only that, but many things that evolution relies on is taken for granted and is left to "CHANCE"

Let us investigate the "chances/probabilities" here:

1. Universe created by accident

2. The solar system came to being with the Sun (energy source) being the centre of all planetary bodies that revolve round it. (by chance?)

3. Planet earth formed at a convenient distance from the SUN with a moon that has dramatic effects on the oceans of the Earth. (by chance?)

4. An atmosphere known as the Ozone (O3) existed that shielded planet earth from harmful properties of Solar and Cosmic radiations. (by chance?)

5. Life sustaining elements such as Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen found on earth. (by chance?)

Now let us consider that evolution has undergone, and that from simple single cell organisms life evolves to larger and more sophisticated beings. Speed up evolution and we end up with Humans, other animals, Plants.

Now let us study what chances we must take to live on planet earth.

1. Humans and other creatures breathe Oxygen, without which we shall die. Need foods (exclusivly carbon based).

2. Plant life takes in Solar radiation, Carbon Dioxide, water, and undertakes the process of photosynthesis to produce foods.

Is it by chance that the food source for this whole world is traced back to PLANTS? Is it also by chance that Plant life produces Oxygen (we inhale this) and that plant life inhales what we exhale (Carbon Dioxide)?

It must have become obvious for you how much for evolution and even for the formation of the universe and life itself, we have to rely on "CHANCE". My friend, what is the PROBABILITY OF THIS CHANCE TAKING PLACE?

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Unknown]
  #29  
Old November 21, 2003, 12:46 PM
Tintin Tintin is offline
Moderator
BC Editorial Team
 
Join Date: August 23, 2003
Posts: 3,490

Quote:
3. Planet earth formed at a convenient distance from the SUN with a moon that has dramatic effects on the oceans of the Earth. (by chance?)
There is an obvious argument against this. We are at a convenient distance from the sun because if we were not, we wouldn't have been here; and the earth would have been like the other dead planets.

Same about ozone layer etc.
  #30  
Old November 21, 2003, 12:49 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069
Default Unknown

I am not going to write another essay on some of the stuff you wrote. It's full of "anthropocentric" arguments, one of which Tintin has pointed out already.

But yes, it is VERY mind-boggling and we have to research A LOT to actually find out what is going on. Only by exploring more and more and collecting more data can we get an ever increasingly accurate picture what REALLY happened. That is the LOGICAL thing to do.

But what is ILLOGICAL is you, instead of trusting and supporting the ongoing research of scientists searching for what really happened, are saying that I should fully trust what some prophet said thousands of years ago without ANY research, and without any logical reasoning whatsoever.

Why are YOU taking the infinitely bigger risk of believing something that is so ILLOGICAL?

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Arnab]
  #31  
Old November 21, 2003, 12:57 PM
Unknown's Avatar
Unknown Unknown is offline
ODI Cricketer
 
Join Date: November 21, 2003
Location: Blue Moon
Posts: 509

Quote:
Originally posted by Tintin
Quote:
3. Planet earth formed at a convenient distance from the SUN with a moon that has dramatic effects on the oceans of the Earth. (by chance?)
There is an obvious argument against this. We are at a convenient distance from the sun because if we were not, we wouldn't have been here; and the earth would have been like the other dead planets.

Same about ozone layer etc.

What part of this argument do you not understand... it is blatantly obvious... My point was exactly as you said. You fail to so read this again.

"3. Planet earth formed at a convenient distance from the SUN with a moon that has dramatic effects on the oceans of the Earth. (by chance?) "

Herein I am saying that "is it also by chance that the earth is at a convenient distance from the sun". As we know, if we were any closer or any further, this could affect our green planet dramatically!

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Unknown]
  #32  
Old November 21, 2003, 12:58 PM
Nasif's Avatar
Nasif Nasif is offline
Administrator
BanglaCricket Development
 
Join Date: October 4, 2002
Location: USA
Favorite Player: Mashrafe Mortaza
Posts: 8,660

Are you reading what you just posted?

Thats the same thing I have been saying. Moreover, if you notice the specturm analysis you would know that most of the stuff there is hydrogen. And hydrogen can only emit red color. All three are in red color because stars lack heavy elements that emit other colors. Hubble detectors use only hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen (all of which emits red zone color of visible spectrum). They use these three to make 3 channels of RGB to create a color image. Because of high quantity of hydrogen cat's eye is red. Thats is its true color. Hydrogen always emits color in red zone. That what spectorscopy tells us.



That is why at initial stage of red giant, you will see the sun is buring as red and disintigrating our sky
  #33  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:04 PM
Unknown's Avatar
Unknown Unknown is offline
ODI Cricketer
 
Join Date: November 21, 2003
Location: Blue Moon
Posts: 509
Default Research?

Arnab, can you provide a case which shows that I believe in what is "ILLOGICAL"? I should think not. And you seem to believe in the ILLOGICAL too...

If I am not mistaken, it is you who believes in EVOLUTION which is not PROVEN, yet RESEARCH IS DONE based on a SCIENTISTS THEORY made hundreds of years ago.

So what is wrong in researching the Quran written thousands of years ago that provides us with more scientific evidence than DARWIN could provide?

If you advise someone else to follow LOGIC, you should follow LOGIC too. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.
  #34  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:12 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown
Arnab, can you provide a case which shows that I believe in what is "ILLOGICAL"? I should think not. And you seem to believe in the ILLOGICAL too...

If I am not mistaken, it is you who believes in EVOLUTION which is not PROVEN, yet RESEARCH IS DONE based on a SCIENTISTS THEORY made hundreds of years ago.

So what is wrong in researching the Quran written thousands of years ago that provides us with more scientific evidence than DARWIN could provide?

If you advise someone else to follow LOGIC, you should follow LOGIC too. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.
Dude, you are deluded, but perhaps not beyond redemption. Are you aware of hundreds, no, thousands of scientific reaserch papers published in educational research institutions on evolutionary biology since Darwin? Do you know that Evolution is regarded as a FACT in the scientific community: a community comprising of thousands of scientists? If scientists are researching on a theory and constantly finding proof that it's valid, then what's illogical about it?

Come on now.

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Arnab]
  #35  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:17 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
Retired BC Admin
 
Join Date: August 14, 2003
Location: pc near u
Posts: 8,021

Guys, may I?

Nasif's quranic reference points to an event which is yet to be experienced or atleast yet to be proved without the shadow of a doubt and not necessarily points to the particular picture in question. What the picture, wheather it is real or doctored, does is to give us some sorts of preview of that event.

Remember, this thread is about Quranic claim of being error free and the discussion of the claim in the context of science.

Does the said picture, wheather it is real or doctored, make that claim invalid?

Please do not forget what we are discussing and why. I hope to see more reasonable and sensible post.

Unknown, welcome to the board. Hope you will enjoy our company. Cheers.
  #36  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:22 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069
Default Nasif

Read this:

http://www.donaldedavis.com/2002_addons/DEEPCLRS.html

The Hubble is the greatest leap in seeing the Universe since Galileo. However, with all due praises for the missions many accomplishments, It seems odd that the Hubble telescope rarely does the very thing hundreds of dedicated professional and amateur astronomers try to do with their equipment-to take RGB color pictures of the sky. I do not wish to criticize the excellent work that is being done so much as to lament what is being neglected. While the obscure wavelengths ususlly emphasized in their studies have information to give, I find it sad that RGB images of deep sky objects are rarely considered worth obtaining. There are things we also can learn in those wavelengths with better coorelation available to existing groundbased photography. I realize part of the advantage of having a space telescope is access to wavelengths you can't study from the ground, but at least as compelling an advantage is the big gain in resolution over the familiar views of astronomical objects. Part of the bridge between the familiar and the revelatory is seeing the image as we have known it transferred from a very defocused prelude to the 'real thing' in its full detail.

I would like to encourage those getting Hubble Space Telescope time and those approving such applications to consider visible light images as a viable option.



Although the captions in photo releases generally declare the differences between the presented and true colors, only those familiar with the colors of the skies through experience are likely to catch such stylization without such disclaimers, which are often not relayed when reproduced.



This HST photo is of NGC 6543, the 'Cat's eye' nebula. It is located near the North Ecliptic pole, and is among the brighter of the so-called 'Planetary nebulae'.

The initially released version is at the left. To the right is my attempt to 'bring back' something closer to the actual colors as can be photographed from ground based telescopes. The April 1995 Sky and Telescope Magazine features the initially released version on the cover, but on page 98 of that issue a ground based CCD image in 'enhanced color' by Bruce Balick shows this object in a color scheme nearly the 'inverse' of the Hubble image. NGC 6543 also appears greenish in older color film images. A later version of the Hubble image reprocessed by Mr. Balick better suggests the telescopic colors, and can be seen at his site. Balick's revised HST image appeared on the October 1998 cover of Sky and Telescope.

Here's a link to the image:

http://www.astro.washington.edu/bali...3.montage.jpeg

Which again proves my point, the color is mainly there to stylize the pics.

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Arnab]
  #37  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:25 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

Quote:
Does the said picture, wheather it is real or doctored, make that claim invalid?
What claim? Look, there very well may be a reference in ancient Chinese legends that there are colorful dragons in the sky. So if a pic is taken by Hubble, color enhanced nonetheless, happens to match the outline of a dragon, does that mean the ancient chinese were omniscient?
  #38  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:31 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
Retired BC Admin
 
Join Date: August 14, 2003
Location: pc near u
Posts: 8,021

Arnab, kidding who? Read before you reply. If you don't know what the claim is all about, then do not reply.
  #39  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:34 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

OK, I just refuted the claim that an ayat in the Quran somehow relates to the cat's eye nebula. Happy?

Here's the claim:

"When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint."

1. The sky did not disintegrate. As a matter of fact, there is no "sky", it's space. And it's not "disintegrating."

2. And the color of the nebula is not rosey. In fact, it's true color may be more like greenish. The sky(or space) didn't "turn rose colored like paint", the paint was thrown on the black and white photo and enhanced to make it look "cool."

Color is a subjective human trait. The sense of color is happening inside our brain. Universal phenomena don't CARE what colors we see.

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Arnab]
  #40  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:35 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
Retired BC Admin
 
Join Date: August 14, 2003
Location: pc near u
Posts: 8,021

Yes, of course. Thank you very much.
  #41  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:40 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

Awesome. Next?
  #42  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:43 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

Quote:
Originally posted by oracle
Yes quite right. Psychology and the study of the brain are the least developed areas of science. It is truly astonishing how the human race has survived and got this far. I mean compliance in society and social proof is an element in every religious practice, but it would be interesting to see if evolution is capable of taking humans to another level than what has been witnessed in the past. I am alluding to new found studies in the area of Meditation and it's effects on the brain.
What newfound studies? What do you mean by another level? Do you have any interesting links?
  #43  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:44 PM
Zobair's Avatar
Zobair Zobair is offline
BanglaCricket Staff
 
Join Date: July 15, 2002
Location: 16th floor
Posts: 4,103

Arnab, There is a difference between refutation and posting a possible alternative. Refutation negates a notion completely. You just posted a view from one person suggesting an alternative view.



Quote:
Color is a subjective human trait. The sense of color is happening inside our brain. Universal phenomena don't CARE what colors we see.

Of course it is! Quran was revealed for the Humans...not chimps...not aliens...nor any other "creatures"...
  #44  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:49 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

Quote:
Of course it is! Quran was revealed for the Humans...not chimps...not aliens...nor any other "creatures"...
I know! How conveniently anthropocentric!

We humans need to stop treating ourselves so important. Somebody mentioned "arrogance." Well THIS is arrogance. We are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO worthless in terms of the greatness of the universe. Just another species.

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Arnab]
  #45  
Old November 21, 2003, 01:54 PM
Zobair's Avatar
Zobair Zobair is offline
BanglaCricket Staff
 
Join Date: July 15, 2002
Location: 16th floor
Posts: 4,103

All the same Arnab...I am jsut referring to the fact that Quran was revealed to Humans i.e. expect the colors described in there to match Human perception. Nothing to do with who is superior or inferior.
  #46  
Old November 21, 2003, 02:02 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

I know what you're talking about. I personally take great pleasure in circular reasoning myself:

1. Daddy, why are we humans so important?

- because the Quran(or Bible or whatever) was revealed to us and it says so.

2. But daddy, why is the Quran (or Bible, etc.) referring to things that only humans can comprehend?

- because we are important.

3. But WHY are we important?

- what are you a jackass? Look at point 1, Dummy!


And on and on the circular logic goes.

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Arnab]
  #47  
Old November 21, 2003, 02:06 PM
Zobair's Avatar
Zobair Zobair is offline
BanglaCricket Staff
 
Join Date: July 15, 2002
Location: 16th floor
Posts: 4,103

nice speculation but not quite there. Lets assume for a second you are actually right. There are chinese texts which talk about colourful dragons in the sky. But you realise that when the chinese talk about dragons...they actually mean REAL FIRE-BREATHING DRAGONS. Its part of their culture, their tradition, folklore. If the hubble does find some nebula ressembling a dragon, even the chinese won't go so far as to claim its their fire-breathing dragon...haha.. In the Quran no such claim is made. The ayat you refer to uses an analogy to explain the visual of a phenomenon...may be the Cat's eye nebula demonstrates the effect...may be it doesn't...thats all.

Quote:
Look, there very well may be a reference in ancient Chinese legends that there are colorful dragons in the sky. So if a pic is taken by Hubble, color enhanced nonetheless, happens to match the outline of a dragon, does that mean the ancient chinese were omniscient?
  #48  
Old November 21, 2003, 02:11 PM
Zobair's Avatar
Zobair Zobair is offline
BanglaCricket Staff
 
Join Date: July 15, 2002
Location: 16th floor
Posts: 4,103

huh! dude! I am just saying if some one gives you a book to explain something to you, it will be given in a language...using a logic...using examples that you can understand and perceive...thats all...whats that to do with circular reasoning...

You are too full of yourself man

Quote:
I know what you're talking about. I personally take great pleasure in circular reasoning myself...
  #49  
Old November 21, 2003, 02:15 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

Haha!

Hey if Nasif can make a rose out of that doctored space photo, then I bet a Chinese guy can make a dragon out of some other space photo. May be the dragon is made of fire itself. And those HOT HOT hydrogen clouds could be its firey breath!

Haha! This is fun. Do you see how meaningless this can get?

That's what all it is. Meaningless. But fun nonetheless.

Allegory? Heh. If everything is allegory and can be connected to anything, then it's pretty meaningless isn't it? If you try really hard, you could probably allegorically connect taking a piss with the origin of the universe.
  #50  
Old November 21, 2003, 02:22 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
Cricket Legend
 
Join Date: June 20, 2002
Location: BanglaCricket.com
Posts: 6,069

Quote:
huh! dude! I am just saying if some one gives you a book to explain something to you, it will be given in a language...using a logic...using examples that you can understand and perceive...thats all...whats that to do with circular reasoning...
You see no circular reasoning eh?

Why is the Quran in Arabic? Because it's the prophet's language.

Why is the Prophet's language Arabic? Because his would-be followers speak in Arabic. If the prophet was born and raised in England, he would be talking anglo-saxon.

But why was the prophet born in Arab land? Why couldn't he be born in some other land which was as backward as the Arabs?

Uhhhh. I don't know. I just blindly believe.

And stop asking me these intellectually interesting but irritating questions. Or I will cut your throat, you godless infidel!!

[Edited on 21-11-2003 by Arnab]
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
BanglaCricket.com
 

About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy | Partner Sites | Useful Links | Banners |

© BanglaCricket