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  #1  
Old January 21, 2009, 11:16 PM
ausbangfan ausbangfan is offline
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Default Batting comparisons between Zimbabwe and Bangladesh

I made this thread to see who's got the better batting line ups between the two countries- Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. The categories are career ODI batting averages, ICC ODI Batsman rankings and Recent Form (Last 10 ODI's). *Only included players picked in the ODI squad. Also at the end I've included team totals (Jan 1 2008-Jan 21 2009)

Career Batting averages (Qualification 15 ODI's) (Updated January 21st)

1ST Shakib al Hasan Bangladesh 1566 @ 32.62
2ND Raqibul Hasan Bangladesh 565 @ 29.73
3RD Sean Williams Zimbabwe 696 @ 27.84
4TH Tatenda Taibu Zimbabwe 2033 @ 26.40
5TH Tamim Iqbal Bangladesh 1336 @ 25.69

ICC ODI Batsman Rankings (Qualification 15 ODI's) (Updated January 19th)

1ST Shakib al Hasan Bangladesh 34th Position 577
2ND Tamim Iqbal Bangladesh 43rd Position 538
3RD Mohammad Ashraful Bangladesh 45th Position 516
4TH Elton Chigumbura Zimbabwe 52nd Position 492
5TH Tatenda Taibu Zimbabwe 54th Position 488

Recent Form (Last 10 ODI's)

1ST Shakib al Hasan Bangladesh 274 runs
2ND Mohammad Ashraful Bangladesh 252 runs
3RD Tamim Iqbal Bangladesh 186 runs
4TH Stuart Matsikinyeri Zimbabwe 181 runs
5TH Hamilton Masakadza Zimbabwe 172 runs

Team Totals(From Jan 1 2008 till January 21 2009)*Only games that include full members
Bangladesh
285/7 v Pakistan Lahore 13 Apr 2008
283/6 v India Karachi 28 Jun 2008
230 v South Africa Benoni 9 Nov 2008
226/7 v Sri Lanka Lahore 25 Jun 2008
225/8 v Pakistan Faisalabad 11 Apr 2008
222 v India Dhaka (SBNS) 12 Jun 2008
222 v South Africa Potchefstroom 7 Nov 2008
210 v Pakistan Multan 16 Apr 2008
202/3 v New Zealand Dhaka (SBNS) 9 Oct 2008
179 v Pakistan Karachi 19 Apr 2008
178 v South Africa Chittagong (CDS) 9 Mar 2008
174 v Sri Lanka Karachi 30 Jun 2008
173 v South Africa Dhaka (SBNS) 12 Mar 2008
170/8 v New Zealand Chittagong (CDS) 14 Oct 2008
167 v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 10 Jan 2009
164/4 v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 21 Jan 2009
163/8 v Pakistan Dhaka (SBNS) 8 Jun 2008
152 v Sri Lanka Dhaka (SBNS) 16 Jan 2009
151/5 v Sri Lanka Dhaka (SBNS) 14 Jan 2009
143 v South Africa Dhaka (SBNS) 14 Mar 2008
137 v New Zealand Dhaka (SBNS) 11 Oct 2008
129 v Pakistan Lahore 8 Apr 2008
125 v Australia Darwin 6 Sep 2008
124 v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 19 Jan 2009
117 v Australia Darwin 3 Sep 2008
115 v Pakistan Karachi 4 Jul 2008
74 v Australia Darwin 30 Aug 2008

Maximum of 285 (Zimbabwe 244)
Minimum of 74 (Zimbabwe 67)
Average of 176 (well short of Jamie Siddons magical '240') (Zimbabwe 168)
% of scores over 200- 33% (1in 3) (Zimbabwe 36%)

Zimbabwe

244 v Pakistan Faisalabad 30 Jan 2008
243/7 v Pakistan Karachi 21 Jan 2008
238/8 v Pakistan Hyderabad (Sind) 24 Jan 2008
235/7 v Pakistan Multan 27 Jan 2008
205/9 v Bangladesh Dhaka (SBNS) 10 Jan 2009
181 v Pakistan Sheikhupura 2 Feb 2008
166/7 v Sri Lanka Harare 24 Nov 2008
160/9 v Bangladesh Dhaka (SBNS) 21 Jan 2009
146 v Sri Lanka Harare 28 Nov 2008
133 v Sri Lanka Harare 30 Nov 2008
127 v Sri Lanka Harare 20 Nov 2008
127/8 v Bangladesh Dhaka (SBNS) 19 Jan 2009
80 v Sri Lanka Dhaka (SBNS) 12 Jan 2009
67 v Sri Lanka Harare 22 Nov 2008


Maximum of 244 (Bangladesh 285)
Minimum of 67 (Bangladesh 74)
Average of 168 (Bangladesh (176)
% of scores over 200- 36% (Bangladesh 33%)

Overall the stats show that Bangladesh are the better batting side but not by much.
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  #2  
Old January 22, 2009, 07:56 AM
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Do you know what each teams average score is for the first innings?
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  #3  
Old January 22, 2009, 08:07 AM
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I thought Ashraful was scoring ducks after ducks and other players were scoring heavily!
Now I wonder why people are so mad at him.
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  #4  
Old January 22, 2009, 08:21 AM
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WOW! i didnt know bd were so close in comparison to ZIM that really sucks
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  #5  
Old January 22, 2009, 09:35 AM
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Nice statistics. But I would like to put a different spin on the numbers.

1) For Zimbabwe, out of the 12 matches 5 of them were at Harere and 5 of them in Pakistan. So 10 out of 12 matches in flat batting pitches. If you considered the opponent score and see the difference then you may have a better comparison of two teams. Just my personal opinion. 83% in flat beds.

On the other hand, BD played 9 games at Pakistan pitches and Chittagong pitch. I would like to add 3 more matches of Dhaka to the flat pitch count cause at that time the pitch reacted that way. Total of 12 games out of 27 games in decent batting tracks. 44% in flat bed.

You do the math.

2) Opponents:
We faced SA five times, Aus three times and add 3 games at NZ. In difficulty scale these 11 games are far harder than facing Pakistan, SL and Zim.

So a weighted average could help see us the bigger picture.

3) Only reason Zim batting is somewhat good is the because of the consistency in their lineup for the last two years. We shuffle players, players position too much. That is why we don't have consistency.

Bottom line is we have won against NZ and SL with this type of crapy score. Whereas, Zim could only manage two wins against us. There batting is not even close to our A team. Their application is better than us, far better.

Last edited by Tigers_eye; January 22, 2009 at 09:41 AM..
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  #6  
Old January 22, 2009, 09:39 AM
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i suppose we should be grateful to be ahead of zimbabwe at all.

the zimbabweans play with a lot more heart than we do - barring extreme rare occaisions.

but they do have a tendency of playing ludicrous shots to get out just like we do.
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  #7  
Old January 22, 2009, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Nice statistics. But I would like to put a different spin on the numbers.

1) For Zimbabwe, out of the 12 matches 5 of them were at Harere and 5 of them in Pakistan. So 10 out of 12 matches in flat batting pitches. If you considered the opponent score and see the difference then you may have a better comparison of two teams. Just my personal opinion.

On the other hand, BD played 9 games at Pakistan pitches and Chittagong pitch. I would like to add 3 more matches of Dhaka to the flat pitch count cause at that time the pitch reacted that way. Total of 12 games out of 27 games in decent batting tracks.

2) Opponents:

We faced SA five times, Aus three times and add 3 games at NZ. In difficulty scale these 11 games are far harder than facing Pakistan, SL and Zim.

So a weighted average could help see us the bigger picture.

3) Only reason Zim batting is somewhat good is the because of the consistency in their lineup for the last two years. We shuffle players, players position too much. That is why we don't have consistency.

Bottom line is we have won against NZ and SL with this type of crapy score. Whereas, Zim could only manage two wins against us. There batting is not even close to our A team. Their application is better than us, far better.
mijan those 5 at harare were tough batting tracks, didn't SL struggle to put up 170 against zim bowlers? or is it a different series you're talking about.

but its agreed, zim schedule has been far more lenient than ours - not that i complain about it at all.

i'll pull up some rajesh-fied stats right now.
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  #8  
Old January 22, 2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
mijan those 5 at harare were tough batting tracks, didn't SL struggle to put up 170 against zim bowlers? or is it a different series you're talking about...
That is why I suggested the difference between the opponent scores should be one of the criteria to get a better understanding. Certainly Harare pitch is not what NZ, SA pitches offer.
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  #9  
Old January 22, 2009, 10:23 AM
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In last 1.5 yers, Bangladesh scored least runs per wicket and least runs per over in ODIs. Yes, lower than even Zimbabwe in both aspects. One would expect a team full of so called "too much stroke playing" batsmen wouldn't end up at the bottom place in RR chart.
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  #10  
Old January 22, 2009, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
In last 1.5 yers, Bangladesh scored least runs per wicket and least runs per over in ODIs. Yes, lower than even Zimbabwe in both aspects.
So pakistan is the best batting team in the last 1.5 years? I fully disagree because of the pitches and opponent factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
One would expect a team full of so called "too much stroke playing" batsmen wouldn't end up at the bottom place in RR chart.
I thought everyone (95%) here liked the strokemakers. Even now they want Aftab-Alok-HB back.
1.5 years is a bad timing. This is totally a new team than the one we had 1.5 years back.
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  #11  
Old January 22, 2009, 10:54 AM
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Career Stats Against G8 teams

Zimbabwe:

Sean Williams: 17 innings - 405 runs @ 31.15, 72.71 SR, 23.82 runs per innings, WEIR = 17.32
H Masakadza: 35 innings - 739 runs @ 21.11, 66.99 SR, 21.11 runs per innings, WEIR = 14.14
Tatenda Taibu: 78 innings - 1699 runs @ 26.96, 64.11 SR, 21.78 runs per innings, WEIR = 13.96
Matsikenyeri : 58 innings - 873 runs @ 15.87, 66.13 SR, 15.05 runs per innings, WEIR = 9.95
V Sibanda: 52 innings - 822 runs @ 16.11, 54.22 SR, 15.81 runs per innings, WEIR = 8.57
Chigumbura: 44 innings - 789 runs @ 19.72, 73.39 SR, 17.93 runs per innings, WEIR = 13.16

Bangladesh:

Raqibul Hasan: 15 innings - 375 runs @ 26.78, 54.19 SR, 25 runs per innings, WEIR = 13.54
Sakib al Hasan: 35 innings - 843 runs @ 27.19, 66.85 SR, 24.09 runs per innings, WEIR = 16.10
Md. Ashraful: 89 innings - 1797 runs @ 21.39, 69.78 SR, 20.19 runs per innings, WEIR = 14.09
Tamim Iqbal: 39 innings - 974 runs @ 24.97, 71.35 SR, 24.97 runs per innings, WEIR = 17.82

WEIR ranks:

Tamim - 17.82
SC Williams - 17.32
Sakib - 16.10
Masakadza - 14.14
Ashraful - 14.09
Taibu - 13.96
Raqib - 13.54
Chigumbura - 13.16

ZIM top 4 average WEIR = 14.65
BD top 4 average WEIR = 15.39

ZIM High Scores:

Taibu - 107* (RSA)
Taibu - 96* (SL)
Sibanda - 96 (WI)
Masakadza - 87 (PAK)
Taibu - 81 (PAK)
Masakadza - 80 (WI)
Masakadza - 77 (SL)
Chigumbura - 77 (AUS)
Taibu - 74* (PAK)
Matsikenyeri - 73 (ENG)
Taibu - 71 (IND)
Williams - 71 (PAK)
Williams - 70* (WI)

BD High Scores:

Sakib - 108 (PAK)
Ashraful - 100 (AUS)
Ashraful - 94 (ENG)
Sakib - 92* (SL)
Raqibul - 89 (IND)
Ashraful - 87 (RSA)
Junaid - 85 (NZ)
Tamim - 82 (RSA)
Sakib - 75 (PAK)
Ashraful - 73 (RSA)
Ashraful - 70 (NZ)

ZIM Big Scores = 13
BD Big Scores = 11
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  #12  
Old January 22, 2009, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
I fully disagree because of the pitches and opponent factor.
Correct, me too, for same reason.
1.5 yrs isn't long enough to draw any conclusion.
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  #13  
Old January 22, 2009, 11:01 AM
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based on the above, our batting is extremely EVEN.

this is not only a surprise, but highly disappointing as well. with all our talent, we aren't even ahead of zimbabwe. of course, the likes of alok, SN, and rajin would add another 5-6 big scores, giving us the edge, but if ZIM had Sean Ervine, i'm sure he alone would make up that difference easily. the zimbabwe batsman are just as young, and even less experienced. this basically sums up how pitiful our batting is. it is several degrees poorer than zimbabwe's all things considered. the excess talent means nothing.

our big wins in the same period (after ZIM's crisis) however stand at 7 (India twice, SL twice, Aus, NZ, and RSA) vs just one for zimbabwe (against WI). this is largely due to our vast bowling superiority, which is currently largely negated with the absences of both razzak and rasel.

as an overall team we are better than zimbabwe by a fair margin, since our batting is equal (or perhaps slightly worse) but our bowling is considerably better than theirs at full strength. even a heath streak in his prime wouldn't change that equation.
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Old January 22, 2009, 11:08 AM
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it shows Bangladesh coach(siddon) is not doing anything for the team. Im sure just before siddon era Bangladesh's batting was quiet good. We always used to get something above 200 runs. and occasionally below 200.
We are surely going downwards here
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  #15  
Old January 22, 2009, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
In last 1.5 yers, Bangladesh scored least runs per wicket and least runs per over in ODIs. Yes, lower than even Zimbabwe in both aspects. One would expect a team full of so called "too much stroke playing" batsmen wouldn't end up at the bottom place in RR chart.
that is very impressive. and done mostly against top 8 sides.

and certainly vastly superior to our batting.

however, the interesting thing is that ZIM won only 2 of those matches in that period, one of them against kenya, the other against near-minnow west indies. this indicates that their batting was done either on really flat tracks or their bowling really sucked. my guess is their bowling let them down.

regardless, i am very surprised and disappointed at the batting stats between zimbabwe and bangladesh. at the same time, i guess it means that zimbabwe are not as poor as they seem. they scored 295 against SA and 274 against WI (this one they won).

it might make our losses to zimbabwe slightly more palatable in that light. they also made SL sweat 3 times on the trot, and they just thrashed pakistan.
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Old January 22, 2009, 11:16 AM
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interstingly, despite williams' impressive batting average - which is far higher than any of our guys - his average runs per innings is actually lower than 3 of our batsman. raqib, sakib, and tamim all average more runs per innings than williams. that is one sign of relief. especially considering that tamim is in a lean patch, and raqib is just beginning to get his form back.
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  #17  
Old January 22, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
So pakistan is the best batting team in the last 1.5 years? I fully disagree because of the pitches and opponent factor.
This chart obviously don't tell the fully story, but it doesn't completely lie either. The big teams which finished in the bottom half (England, WI, SL) deserves their position. The matches against minnows heavily contributed to Pakistan's being #1 at the table, but they played commendably against India (probably the best ODI team in this period) too in the few times they met.

Quote:
I thought everyone (95%) here liked the strokemakers. Even now they want Aftab-Alok-HB back.
1.5 years is a bad timing. This is totally a new team than the one we had 1.5 years back.
The same can be said about NZ, India, Pakistan. The changes are not responsible for our poor batting average. SN had a Junaed-ish ODI average against strong teams, JO/HB was always waste of space in the ODI lineup.

Anyway, the point is whenever Ash/someone else gets out cheaply in BC we and in commentary box Atahar/Shamim Ashraf plays the broken record of "playing too much shot", which simply isn't true. Most poor ODI innings played by our batsmen aren't Afridi type poor ODI innings, rather they're more like yesterday's 20 ball 5 Ash innings. Instead of sending the punishable delivery to boundary like proper batsmen, they end up getting out like Ash. But we always like to say "it's only bad shot, lack of temperament etc" instead of putting the blame on all-round poor batsmanship.
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Old January 22, 2009, 11:23 AM
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is ashraul the master at ducks
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  #19  
Old January 22, 2009, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umar
it shows Bangladesh coach(siddon) is not doing anything for the team. Im sure just before siddon era Bangladesh's batting was quiet good. We always used to get something above 200 runs. and occasionally below 200.
We are surely going downwards here
Sorry to dissapoint you.
Between 2004 and July of 2007 (before Siddons era), against the G8 team we averaged only 176.9302. not 200. The average significantly goes down if we get the whole Dave Watmore era. Do not speculate.
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Old January 22, 2009, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
interstingly, despite williams' impressive batting average - which is far higher than any of our guys - his average runs per innings is actually lower than 3 of our batsman. raqib, sakib, and tamim all average more runs per innings than williams. that is one sign of relief. especially considering that tamim is in a lean patch, and raqib is just beginning to get his form back.
26.67% of 50+ innings (Williams) is pretty impressive, given standards of BD/Zim batting, and it's not his fault if he remains not out few times. It's not like he bats at #11 and gets many chances of remaining not out.
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Old January 22, 2009, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Recent Form (Last 10 ODI's)

1ST Shakib al Hasan Bangladesh 274 runs
2ND Mohammad Ashraful Bangladesh 252 runs
3RD Tamim Iqbal Bangladesh 186 runs
4TH Stuart Matsikinyeri Zimbabwe 181 runs
5TH Hamilton Masakadza Zimbabwe 172 runs
* Courtesy: Aus-Bangla Fan
If I am not wrong, I thought some people were asking for the head of the second person in the list

But Our overall team batting performance is strangely poor.
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Old January 22, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
But we always like to say "it's only bad shot, lack of temperament etc" instead of putting the blame on all-round poor batsmanship.
i think you're being a bit too harsh.

yes our batting sucks. it even sucks more than zimbabwe. however, just as ash's 94 off 52 isn't an accurate representation of his scoring rate, neither are the 20 ball fives. i think career strike rates tell a much better story, given a significant number of innings.

JO's 52 SR is accurate, sakib's 70 is accurate but will probably stablize around 75, ash's 72 is accurate though of late its been more around 75-80 since the 2005 cardiff match. tamim's SR of 70 will also increase and depending on how long he stays at the crease should reach 75-80. only raqib has a poor SR of 60, and that is not accurate of his abilities. he should stablize around in the low 70s eventually. these strike rates are not that bad, especially if we keep wickets intact for the new PPs and the slog overs which is what other teams do and accelerate their RR.

which is another point. that we don't maintain enough wickets at the end to incrase our SR. we lose our top 6 wickets far too early, and at that stage, i'd estimate that our SR is not too far from the top teams.

at the end, our problem is with temperement mostly. technically, now our batsman are fairly competent. what they lack is experience, confidence, and skill. and of course temperement.

whereas a chanderpaul is adept at scoring just 30 runs from his first 50 balls, then blasting his way to a decent SR and a big score, our batters usually try to hit out against the run of play. situational batting is very poor from our guys, with the exceptions of the 2 Hasans, with Sakib being quite good.

the reason for our poor strike rate, yet altu-faltu dismissals is that the batters attempt to play a controlled innings, which they usually interpret as "block, block, block" even against bad deliveries. and then the pressure builds and they go for a audacious stroke. end result, poor batting average and sub par strike rate.

if they went after things according to their "natural style", rest assured, they'd still average 20, but with a 100+ strike rake.

the results of that seemingly contradictory stat is mostly due to a near complete absence of situationa batting ability. and hopefully siddons will fix that.
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Old January 22, 2009, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
26.67% of 50+ innings (Williams) is pretty impressive, given standards of BD/Zim batting, and it's not his fault if he remains not out few times. It's not like he bats at #11 and gets many chances of remaining not out.
i agree, but i'm just saying since you wouldn't afford that "excuse" to our guys (remember Sakib's early 67* score and the row that created amongst BC members about it being a "selfish" innings?) its only fair to not afford it to sean williams or any other player from any other team. today sakib is our superstar, and the epitomy of "team player" and unselfish. 90% of our hopes rest on him. he's not a different person, just more experienced.

after all dhoni has an average which surpasses tendulkar due to a high number of unbeaten innings and low batting position, but he ins't a quarter the batsman that SRT is.
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  #24  
Old January 22, 2009, 01:20 PM
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While Avg. is a common denominator in judging the worth and while of a batsman, I like to give equal importance to SR. when it comes to ODI's. To me, the exceptional one day batsmen carry both healthy avg and SR. Our individual avg. are pitiful, so its a bit meaningless to quip about their SR, however, the importance of it is not underestimated in my book.
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Old January 22, 2009, 01:21 PM
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Beamer Beamer is offline
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Join Date: December 15, 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Favorite Player: Viv Richards, Sid Crosby.
Posts: 9,707

I like what al says there. Good post.
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