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  #51  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal

yes they can do the moral boosting even that player doesn;t get the MOM. If it can be done by any hard working players also, and the contribution doesn;t need to be batting or bowling, it can be a particular catch, or effort in fielding also, it can be a talent wise handicapped player giving his 110%, or a genuine bowler scoring signgke digit but hold the other end as night watchman batsman and help the team to recover its batting collapse.
No, that would be a supporting act of being a night watchman and recover the collapse.

Do, you really think bowler like Udana, Kulasekara can win or has the potential of winning matches for Srilanka with a single spell? But yes Malinga can with a single spell. Thats why Malinga is a match winner not Kulasekara even though Kulasekara gives 110% effort.
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  #52  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:10 AM
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Match winner, lol. Let us have session winners first. 1st session'a almost all out hoiye jai abar Match jitbay. gasey kathal gofey tel. Rude awakening awaits.

53 tests 1 match wictory. Enam Jr. = Match winner. No one else. Now match contributors there are some...
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  #53  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaseer
No, that would be a supporting act of being a night watchman and recover the collapse.

Well ... looks like we disagree. In my opinion any kind of fightback in case of team's need is a moral booster for the team and the fans. Whether it take us wining a game or preventing a loss.



Quote:
Originally Posted by yaseer
Do, you really think bowler like Udana, Kulasekara can win or has the potential of winning matches for Srilanka with a single spell? But yes Malinga can with a single spell. Thats why Malinga is a match winner not Kulasekara even though Kulasekara gives 110% effort.
I think you are mixed uo two thinks. Yes this thread is about "match winner" However my commants was based on your commant about "Moral booster performance". A player can play a moral booster performance with being a "Match Winning" Performance. I hope it clarify the confusion.
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  #54  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:16 AM
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By the way, if Draws are equal to BD wins then you have lot of explanation to do to Beamer. He and others (Strike Rate lovers in test) believe we can't draw a test.
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  #55  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
gasey kathal gofey tel. Rude awakening awaits.

53 tests 1 match wictory. Enam Jr. = Match winner. No one else. Now match contributors there are some...
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  #56  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal

Regarding "Match winner can't be defined only with Satistics", I agree its better than nothing. Its batter than fans claimimg he is our next tendulker and she is our next Imran Khan, and he is our ONLY match winner tag without any concrete evidence to back up.
you find this score after 15 overs in the 1st ODI against WI
Bangladesh - 120/1 (15)

Q. Which openers name will come to your mind as the chief contributer?
Ans: Tamim Iqbal (not Junaid or Imrul)

you left Bangladesh 20/2 after 12 overs and then found the score 300/5 after 50.

Q. Which batsman's name would come to your mind that scored?
Ans: Ashraful or Sakib (Not Riyad, Nayeem or Rakib)

You saw a green top and then left and after the innings found that BD had their oponent all-out 120.

Q. Which bowler's name will come to your mind?
Ans: Mashrafee (not Shahadat or Rubel)

That is how fans define match winners. Is this concept bhua? not really i think. Because the players' name came to our mind not only because we are fan of those players, but also they have shown more potential than others in the team to perform on that scale.
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  #57  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:25 AM
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Heres Ash's stats in ODI wins (batting)

Match by match list
51* 51 32 159.37 5 0
v Zimbabwe Harare 10 Mar 2004 ODI # 2110
9 9 13 69.23 2 0
v Hong Kong Colombo (SSC) 16 Jul 2004 ODI # 2143
28 28 41 68.29 1 2
v India Dhaka 26 Dec 2004 ODI # 2201
11 11 12 91.66 0 1
v Zimbabwe Chittagong (MAA) 26 Jan 2005 ODI # 2211
35 35 49 71.42 2 0
v Zimbabwe Dhaka 29 Jan 2005 ODI # 2214
DNB - - - - -
v Zimbabwe Dhaka 31 Jan 2005 ODI # 2217
100 100 101 99.00 11 0
v Australia Cardiff 18 Jun 2005 ODI # 2250
51 51 71 71.83 4 0
v Sri Lanka Bogra 22 Feb 2006 ODI # 2336
18 18 24 75.00 2 0
v Kenya Bogra 17 Mar 2006 ODI # 2350
DNB - - - - -
v Kenya Khulna 20 Mar 2006 ODI # 2353
3 3 7 42.85 0 0
v Kenya Fatullah 23 Mar 2006 ODI # 2355
11 11 13 84.61 2 0
v Kenya Fatullah 25 Mar 2006 ODI # 2356
4 4 24 16.66 0 0
v Zimbabwe Harare 30 Jul 2006 ODI # 2393
DNB - - - - -
v Zimbabwe Harare 6 Aug 2006 ODI # 2398
67* 67 43 155.81 12 1
v Kenya Nairobi (Gym) 12 Aug 2006 ODI # 2402
6 6 10 60.00 1 0
v Kenya Nairobi (Gym) 13 Aug 2006 ODI # 2403
15 15 23 65.21 2 0
v Kenya Nairobi (Gym) 15 Aug 2006 ODI # 2404
DNB - - - - -
v Zimbabwe Khulna 30 Nov 2006 ODI # 2453
4* 4 9 44.44 0 0
v Zimbabwe Bogra 3 Dec 2006 ODI # 2457
36 36 50 72.00 3 0
v Zimbabwe Bogra 5 Dec 2006 ODI # 2459
DNB - - - - -
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 8 Dec 2006 ODI # 2461
14 14 40 35.00 2 0
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 9 Dec 2006 ODI # 2462
4* 4 7 57.14 1 0
v Scotland Chittagong (CDS) 15 Dec 2006 ODI # 2465
38* 38 46 82.60 3 1
v Scotland Dhaka (SBNS) 17 Dec 2006 ODI # 2467
22 22 26 84.61 1 0
v Zimbabwe Harare 4 Feb 2007 ODI # 2505
3 3 5 60.00 0 0
v Zimbabwe Harare 9 Feb 2007 ODI # 2516
DNB - - - - -
v Bermuda St John's 25 Feb 2007 ODI # 2528
60 60 45 133.33 7 1
v Canada St John's 28 Feb 2007 ODI # 2530
8* 8 23 34.78 1 0
v India Port of Spain 17 Mar 2007 ODI # 2538
29* 29 32 90.62 2 0
v Bermuda Port of Spain 25 Mar 2007 ODI # 2554
87 87 83 104.81 12 0
v South Africa Providence 7 Apr 2007 ODI # 2564
64* 64 90 71.11 8 0
v Ireland Dhaka (SBNS) 18 Mar 2008 ODI # 2693
38 38 38 100.00 3 0
v Ireland Dhaka (SBNS) 20 Mar 2008 ODI # 2694
22 22 36 61.11 2 0
v Ireland Dhaka (SBNS) 22 Mar 2008 ODI # 2695
109 109 126 86.50 8 0
v United Arab Emirates Lahore 24 Jun 2008 ODI # 2711
60* 60 56 107.14 5 1
v New Zealand Dhaka (SBNS) 9 Oct 2008 ODI # 2763
26 26 41 63.41 1 0
v Sri Lanka Dhaka (SBNS) 14 Jan 2009 ODI # 2793
5 5 13 38.46 1 0
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 21 Jan 2009 ODI # 2799
3 3 31 9.67 0 0
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 23 Jan 2009 ODI # 2801
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  #58  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:28 AM
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28 28 41 68.29 1 2
v India Dhaka 26 Dec 2004 ODI # 2201
100 100 101 99.00 11 0
v Australia Cardiff 18 Jun 2005 ODI # 2250
51 51 71 71.83 4 0
v Sri Lanka Bogra 22 Feb 2006 ODI # 2336
8* 8 23 34.78 1 0
v India Port of Spain 17 Mar 2007 ODI # 2538
87 87 83 104.81 12 0
v South Africa Providence 7 Apr 2007 ODI # 2564
60* 60 56 107.14 5 1
v New Zealand Dhaka (SBNS) 9 Oct 2008 ODI # 2763
26 26 41 63.41 1 0
v Sri Lanka Dhaka (SBNS) 14 Jan 2009 ODI # 2793

If you narrow it down to the main 8 countries, you see that out of 7 matches, he has 4 with a significant contribution. One of the matches, hes not out (came in lower down. And the remaining 2, he was 2nd or 3rd highest contributor.
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  #59  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaseer
That is how fans define match winners. Is this concept bhua? not really i think. Because the players' name came to our mind not only because we are fan of those players, but also they have shown more potential than others in the team to perform on that scale.
When someone loves someone, sometimes they get blind. They don't see the obvious if it portrays negatively towards his/her loved one. This so true about passionate fans and their relationship with superstar players.

You cannot take passionate fans opinion in its face value. It needed to validated with some thing else like stat or expert opinion, etc. You just trust our passionate fans’ opinion, by we mush have a Tendulker, Afridi, and Pointing in our team by now. But we don’t. that where myth and reality comes from… that’s where stat and other expert opinion comes from.
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  #60  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
When someone loves someone, sometimes they get blind. They don't see the obvious if it portrays negatively towards his/her loved one. This so true about passionate fans and their relationship with superstar players. fficeffice" />

You cannot take passionate fans opinion in its face value. It needed to validated with some thing else like stat or expert opinion, etc. You just trust our passionate fans’ opinion, by we mush have a Tendulker, Afridi, and Pointing in our team by now. But we don’t. that where myth and reality comes from… that’s where stat and other expert opinion comes from.
I dun't think many of us are comparing him to Tendulkar. Remember, a match winner does not have to be good. He just has to win matches. So he good be inconsistant, and have a low average, but if when he shows up, and we win, I'd call him a match-winner.
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  #61  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaseer
you find this score after 15 overs in the 1st ODI against WI
Bangladesh - 120/1 (15)

Q. Which openers name will come to your mind as the chief contributer?
Ans: Tamim Iqbal (not Junaid or Imrul)

you left Bangladesh 20/2 after 12 overs and then found the score 300/5 after 50.

Q. Which batsman's name would come to your mind that scored?
Ans: Ashraful or Sakib (Not Riyad, Nayeem or Rakib)

You saw a green top and then left and after the innings found that BD had their oponent all-out 120.

Q. Which bowler's name will come to your mind?
Ans: Mashrafee (not Shahadat or Rubel)

That is how fans define match winners. Is this concept bhua? not really i think. Because the players' name came to our mind not only because we are fan of those players, but also they have shown more potential than others in the team to perform on that scale.
All three scenarios never happened nor will it happen with this current bunch. You better wake up. Bringing in Mythical scenarios doesn't make your arguement any stronger.
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  #62  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akib
Remember, a match winner does not have to be good. He just has to win matches. So he good be inconsistant, and have a low average, but if when he shows up, and we win, I'd call him a match-winner.
If someone wins matches or have a match winning performance, he get the MOM awarded by assigned experts, right? If someone doesn’t get the MOM, that means in that game someone player better than him to get that MOM.

Now if you start saying contributors, yes we all know that cricket is played by 11 people in each side. Nobody can win a game by himself without some sort of support from some of the team members.
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  #63  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
So far we placed the TEST data and making our conclusion .

Based on your own criteria, we had one one win in TEST and the MOM ion that match was Enamul Jr. So I guess You would agree with me that We in TEST matches, we don't have any Match winner yet. If nay is front runner, its have to be Enamul Jr. not Ashraful, Mashrefee or even Shakib at this point.
Well to me, every single word on TEST is a waste, hence not even deserve any comment.

Quote:
I haven't put forward detailed data of ODI yet and I didn't made any comment about who are our Mtach winners in ODI (if any) yet.
Is that suggest nobody should comment on ODI until you do?

Quote:
So your comment "And Ash did contributed MOST in few of our winning matches ( ZIM, AUS, SA, WI ), unlike anyone rest yet to conted. So why its so hard to accept if anyone wish to call him a match winner for BD?" in this thread is premature in my opinion. Lets put the ODI data first and start analysing that and build our opinion.

May be in ODI, we may have one or multiple candidates, who knows? May be in ODI we will see Ash is the front runner may be someone esle. What's so rush, prematurely saying that Ash is the only match winner that we have?
You picked up MOM criteria knowing well you can make a case off it, which some [if not many] has not enough interest to accept as sole criteria. For example someone can claim our batting should be the criteria since bowling is somewhat per level. And obviously will try his level best to prove vice versa. And I am sure you too will do the same, the outcome of your analysis is somewhat written on the wall.

But hey, why not bring on your "Tholer Biral"! who knows "Ashrafool-er bhoot" might die here on this thread once for ever!! would be a no-one-ever-done achievement.
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  #64  
Old June 24, 2009, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akib
I dun't think many of us are comparing him to Tendulkar. Remember, a match winner does not have to be good. He just has to win matches. So he good be inconsistant, and have a low average, but if when he shows up, and we win, I'd call him a match-winner.
Match winners don't have to be good? They can be inconsistant and have a low average of 23? Have you ever heard the phrase "jhorey bok moray ar fokir'er keramoti barey"? wow!!

I am learning new things in BC everyday.

How many match we won in test? Yet you call Ashraful a match winner? Did you know his contribution in the one match we won?

Amar test team'a inconsistant low average match winner (after playing so many tests who really DID NOT win any test matches) dorkar nai.
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  #65  
Old June 24, 2009, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
When someone loves someone, sometimes they get blind. They don't see the obvious if it portrays negatively towards his/her loved one. This so true about passionate fans and their relationship with superstar players. fficeffice" />

You cannot take passionate fans opinion in its face value. It needed to validated with some thing else like stat or expert opinion, etc. You just trust our passionate fans’ opinion, by we mush have a Tendulker, Afridi, and Pointing in our team by now. But we don’t. that where myth and reality comes from… that’s where stat and other expert opinion comes from.
Yes, passionate fans sometimes over-rate players because of blind love.

But if you ask any cricket expert, "whom do you think got to score most if BD has to chase 300+?" answer would be Ashraful. That is why fans consider Ashraful match winner for Bangladesh. The beleive comes from the previous performance and from the talent the man possess. That is why ASH is the most frustrating story for Bangladesh.
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  #66  
Old June 24, 2009, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
Is that suggest nobody should comment on ODI until you do?

No body put the total data of ODI games and MOM yet. I plan to do it by this. If you already haves those and based on comment on that please feel free to share with us. I am not ready to comment on ODI PMOMR before I have the whole data in front of me. that’s why I meant by premature to discuss ODI MOM. haven’t seen the whole data of all our MOMs and Games we won.

I plan to do that this weekend and then I will express my opinion on that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan

You picked up MOM criteria knowing well you can make a case off it, which some [if not many] has not enough interest to accept as sole criteria. For example someone can claim our batting should be the criteria since bowling is somewhat per level. And obviously will try his level best to prove vice versa. And I am sure you too will do the same, the outcome of your analysis is somewhat written on the wall.
I guess you are over estimating my capabilities. I even don't know who are the front runner MOMs and PMOMR in ODI and I am will tro see how newer players are doing compared with Marshrfee and Ash.

Well interm of using MOMs for identifying "match Winners", I can also say that a fans of a particular player are the most vocal and trying their best to nullify the concept. They tend to say its not measurable only fans ( of a particular player I guess) can identify who is the match winner.

This MOM can not be the only way to judge a "Match Winner" but its a way ....... and its a much better measurable way than few are suggesting as a alternative way. Wait a minute, nobody even bothers to suggest an alternate measurable way except that it cannot be measurable...that’s make me think may be it may not be perfect ... but there is no better way to judge a match winner...
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  #67  
Old June 24, 2009, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Match winners don't have to be good? They can be inconsistant and have a low average of 23? Have you ever heard the phrase "jhorey bok moray ar fokir'er keramoti barey"? wow!!

I am learning new things in BC everyday.

How many match we won in test? Yet you call Ashraful a match winner? Did you know his contribution in the one match we won?

Amar test team'a inconsistant low average match winner (after playing so many tests who really DID NOT win any test matches) dorkar nai.
I'm not taking about tests. If you read ANY of my posts, you would have seen that I said there is insufficient data on tests, as we have won only once. I am refering to our ODI wins, especially against the main countries. In those wins, he has played a big part in most of the matches. You have to admit, in matches we win, he shows up.

Records type all-round analysis [change type]
View career summary [change view]
Match result won match
Ordered by default (ascending)
Career averages

Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St
unfiltered 2001-2009 139 2761 109 23.00 2 11 3/26 38.27 0 27 0 Profile
filtered 2004-2009 39 1041 109 43.37 2 2 2/9 8.50 0 9 0

This includes ALL opposition (not just main 8)


I do agree, he is horrific in tests. In matches won or drawn he has bad results. I could just stand there and do better.
0 0* 0 8 0.00 0 0
v Zimbabwe Dhaka 8 Nov 2001 Test # 1566
1 - 1 34 2.94 0 0
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 26 Feb 2004 Test # 1684
81 1 82 227 36.12 9 0
v West Indies Gros Islet 28 May 2004 Test # 1701
19 22 41 87 47.12 4 1
v Zimbabwe Chittagong (MAA) 6 Jan 2005 Test # 1733
5 3 8 16 50.00 1 0
v Zimbabwe Dhaka 14 Jan 2005 Test # 1735
5 DNB 5 20 25.00 0 0
v India Chittagong (CDS) 18 May 2007 Test # 1832
0 - 0 2 0.00 0 0
v New Zealand Dhaka (SBNS) 25 Oct 2008 Test # 1890

Last edited by Akib; June 24, 2009 at 10:15 AM..
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  #68  
Old June 24, 2009, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
All three scenarios never happened nor will it happen with this current bunch. You better wake up. Bringing in Mythical scenarios doesn't make your arguement any stronger.
TE bhai, I am not saying its gonna happen.
My point was to differentiate the players those have something extra to offer.

Players like Ashraful, Sakib, Tamim always has extra to offer compare to Riyadh, Nayeem, Rakib, Mehrab.
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  #69  
Old June 24, 2009, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaseer
Players like Ashraful, Sakib, Tamim always has extra to offer compare to Riyadh, Nayeem, Rakib, Mehrab.
I am confused now.

How do we measure that "something to offer aspect" of some type of players. Gut feeling? Style? Talent that didn't translted into production yet?

We all complain that there is no accountability and Performance Matrix to measure and monitor and make everybody accountable.. from top toi bottom.

What makes me worried about these unmeasurable "some players have something to offer than other players" is we are saying one thing and suggesting completely other things and creating loopholes to bypass acountability aspect.
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  #70  
Old June 24, 2009, 10:36 AM
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Mamu, emnitei keptency haraiche, koidin por team theke bad porar voye ache, er moddhe keno apne tago mone dukkho den. ektuo doya maya nai??
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  #71  
Old June 24, 2009, 10:43 AM
PoorFan PoorFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
This MOM can not be the only way to judge a "Match Winner" but its a way ....... and its a much better measurable way than few are suggesting as a alternative way. Wait a minute, nobody even bothers to suggest an alternate measurable way except that it cannot be measurable...that’s make me think may be it may not be perfect ... but there is no better way to judge a match winner...
Well may be you have decided not to look more obvious way. How about digging out those bulletins in CI or other match reports in and out Bangladesh [those 4 ODI match]. If you see Ash's especial / exceptional contributions in those report would you accept as a measure? Or if his teammates in BD team highly appreciate Ash's contribution would you ready to accept as legitimate measure? I guess not, because you need something else to prove a point nullifying other.

Perhaps your unique MOM measure for the term Match Winner need some backup / assist of Rajesh, the stat guru of CI.
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  #72  
Old June 24, 2009, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
I am confused now.

How do we measure that "something to offer aspect" of some type of players. Gut feeling? Style? Talent that didn't translted into production yet?
Simple, those are better batsman who have something to offer extra aspect. ASH, Sakib are better than Nayeem, Riyadh....so they have something extra to offer. It's about cricketing ability.
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  #73  
Old June 24, 2009, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaseer
Simple, those are better batsman who have something to offer extra aspect. ASH, Sakib are better than Nayeem, Riyadh....so they have something extra to offer. It's about cricketing ability.
I guess you didn't get my point. How do you measure that those are better batsman who have something to offer extra aspect? And how you are already soo sure Nayeem and Riyadh doesn have it? And Ash and Skain has it? Unless its measureable and backed up with fact, it hard to take as a conclusion when its comming from a individual fan's perspective.
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  #74  
Old June 24, 2009, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorFan
Well may be you have decided not to look more obvious way. How about digging out those bulletins in CI or other match reports in and out Bangladesh [those 4 ODI match]. If you see Ash's especial / exceptional contributions in those report would you accept as a measure? Or if his teammates in BD team highly appreciate Ash's contribution would you ready to accept as legitimate measure? I guess not, because you need something else to prove a point nullifying other.

Perhaps your unique MOM measure for the term Match Winner need some backup / assist of Rajesh, the stat guru of CI.
I suggest you to re-read your own comments. Why its have to be the universe needs to run around Ash? Arn't we forgeting for a moment that Ash is just one out of 11 players who plays for our beloved team? This thread is not about Ashraful, its about how we can measure "Match Winning Potential" amoung our players and really try to find out do we have any potential match winners? If yes who are those?

Digging out those bulletins is a good idea that requires lots of work. But why only Ash related reprots, why not for all of our players? See you are pretty much stuck with Ash mania and ignoring other players.You are accusing me to that I devised this PMOMR stuff to nail down Ash, but you yourself is ignore the rest of the teammates in your discussion as if they don't exists.

Teammates should support each other publicly and only disfunctional team say bad things about each other. I don't see what you point there in that aspect.
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Old June 24, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
I suggest you to re-read your own comments. Why its have to be the universe needs to run around Ash? Arn't we forgeting for a moment that Ash is just one out of 11 players who plays for our beloved team? This thread is not about Ashraful, its about how we can measure "Match Winning Potential" amoung our players and really try to find out do we have any potential match winners? If yes who are those?

Digging out those bulletins is a good idea that requires lots of work. But why only Ash related reprots, why not for all of our players? See you are pretty much stuck with Ash mania and ignoring other players.You are accusing me to that I devised this PMOMR stuff to nail down Ash, but you yourself is ignore the rest of the teammates in your discussion as if they don't exists.

Teammates should support each other publicly and only disfunctional team say bad things about each other. I don't see what you point there in that aspect.
Well its not too hard to do, if you are talking about ODIs. I listed all our wins in a previous post. Just follow the match links. Also, reason we are all focusing on ash, is because traditionally the mantra is that he is our match winner. What we are debating is whether this is true or not.

as for the MOM criteria, I disagree with it. Personally I think many ppl contribute to a win. When I look at match winner, I look for someone who shows up, when the team wins (or other way around). Basically, when the team wins, and you are looking at scorecard, you see that this player's name pops up as doing something significant.
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