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  #1  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:02 PM
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Zeeshan Zeeshan is offline
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Default System Analysis: Debugging Issues

It's not a negative thread; rather this is to discuss and highlight the glaring mistakes that persists in our team. Try to list all the lessons that are learned at the end of the day after every matches.

-------------------------------
Bangladesh in Zimbabwe ODI Series - 4th ODI
ODI no. 2873 | 2009 season
Played at Queens Sports Club, Bulawayo
16 August 2009 (50-over match)


Quote:
7.2 Mahbubul Alam to Coventry, 2 runs, dropped, beautiful shot but too well timed, overpitched on middle, picked it superbly, clipping it straight to deep square leg where Rasel makes a complete mess of it, how costly will that prove? They dropped Chigumbura twice yesterday
This can easily be the pivotal element of the whole game. Thus, when we go to play the cavaliars of cricket like Pakistan and India we can't afford to have this sort of mistakes.

Quote:
43.2 Shakib Al Hasan to Coventry, 2 runs, dropped, Mahmudullah the culprit, tried to sweep it hard through square, got the top edge and it sailed down to deep square leg, the fielder had all the time in the world to get into position but spilled it just when it seemed he was in control of it, another life for the centurion
This one I didn't witness firsthand, but shows the sloppiness of our fielding needs to be worked upon; inexcusable against G8 teams.

Quote:
Coventry was dropped twice during his innings, both simple chances, and the visitors have learnt little from their lapses in the previous game.
Goes on to show the butterfly effect of the incidences leading to his chaotic whirlwind of batting display of Coventry from Shakib's over.

Quote:
45.1 Shakib Al Hasan to Chigumbura, FOUR, Chigumbura continues the good work, short outside off, makes way and swats it through cover for a boundary

45.3 Shakib Al Hasan to Coventry, SIX, Coventry's in a destructive mood now, flighted on middle, got into the perfect position to execute the slog-sweep, got it off the middle, sailed over deep midwicket

45.4 Shakib Al Hasan to Coventry, SIX, another one, can he break Saeed Anwar's record? Another slog-sweep, didn't quite get hold of it, got a bit of a top edge there but had enough bat on it to clear deep midwicket once again

45.5 Shakib Al Hasan to Coventry, FOUR, carnage, the change of angle proves useless for Shakib, over the wicket, bowled full on middle and off, swung away, this time just one bounce, to the deep midwicket boundary, three hits in the same region
Quote:
9.4 Masakadza to Junaid Siddique, OUT, gone, Williams takes a sharp one at point, short and wide, goes for the cut, fails to keep it down and Williams tries to hold on to it over his head, it slips out and he juggles on a couple of occasions to snap it in the end, held his nerve there

Junaid Siddique c Williams b Masakadza 38 (48m 27b 5x4 0x6) SR: 140.74
Junaid again failed to support his partner in batting putting unduly pressure of early wickets in the team setting up an all too familiar pattern. We need to have an opener that can put a solid start and play in cahoots with Tamim.

Quote:
37.6 Utseya to Tamim Iqbal, 1 run, dropped, Chigumbura the man in the hot seat. Perhaps a decisive moment as Tamim charges down the track to clear long-off but doesn't get hold of it, takes forever to come down and Chigumbura, though positioned perfectly, misjudged it at the last moment as it fell behind him
And Tamim getting out right after Powerplay shows that we still cannot exploit the advantages of PP instead use it to shoot on our feet. This is starting to become a common paradigm.

4 SiXES came down the on side from Coventary.

Good news: 55 runs came off the last 5 overs.
Bad news: 55 runs came off the last 5 overs from a team like Zimbabwe. Imagine the slaughtering we will face against tougher oppositions on this ground.


Bottom line: We need to do major repair to our fielding and bowling infrastructure. If a team whose test status is flickering against blizzards of criticism can produce a player who is capable of scoring 194*, it sure sounds ominous for us to play the top 8 teams.
-----------------------------------------------
I didn't have the privelege to watch Coventry's braie party and I am looking forward for others to fill in the rest of the dangerous mistakes we have made during fielding that could have easily cost us this win if not as a stepping stone to series loss.

Cricket is a simple game. Dispatch away the bad balls in the first 10 overs during the PP without losing any wickets, rotate strike in the middle overs preserving wickets, leave the last PP as icing on the cake for appropriate time and finish it off elegantly if need be in T20 mode. Same script over and over again can be applied like a boilerplate template. Bangladesh has managed to learn this simple theory on paper and applied it in real life but still the team is riddled with many basic flaws that need to be rectified for instance despite early breakthroughs in the last two matches they couldn't capitalize on it thus breaking their rhythm.

This is not an end, but a beginning of a real saga across Trail of Tears.
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The guy you hit? If he got a look at the plates, it won't even take that long. There's no play here. There's no angle, there's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up.

Last edited by Zeeshan; August 16, 2009 at 12:11 PM..
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  #2  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:13 PM
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Rifat Rifat is offline
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Excellent Thread, Zeeshan.


I smell Front Page Material
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  #3  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:13 PM
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Spitfire_x86 Spitfire_x86 is offline
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A good team should be able to win matches despite not doing their best in all 3 departments. I'm glad that we can still win matches despite making some mistakes in some departments (albeit against lesser quality opposition). When we needed to do 100% of our best in every department to win a match, we went victory less for years.
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  #4  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
Excellent Thread, Zeeshan.


I smell Front Page Material
You are too kind. But my main purpose was to make our daily match journal jotting down notes for all the day's mistakes. Thanks again.
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The guy you hit? If he got a look at the plates, it won't even take that long. There's no play here. There's no angle, there's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up.
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  #5  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:21 PM
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zeeshan bhai etodin por kaamer ekta thread disen

amio ei rokom kotha bolsilam..........but ekjon bolsilo irritating thread........jahok je popular tar thread chole beshi........bhalo ekta thread khulsen......thumbsup to u
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnaved
bhai ekta jinish bole rakhi...........if u never pick up small mistakes........u never gonna improve........never

side topic: once i commented that ash got problem with his mindset...........maybe long time ago...........who agreed with me? probably one or two.........but at the end......i was right...........jeishob jinish futurer jonno khotikor sheishob thik kora uchit

about rock: he is a very good player no doubt.........but he got major weakness........most of the time he plays to leg .........so if the opponent captain is clever, nextime he gonna put more fielders to the leg........and guess what rock will get run out or catch out.............

dekhen na kotha lage kina shamne!
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  #6  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:21 PM
capslock capslock is offline
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I disagree on Junaid, if you look at the history of our openers, he's head and shoulders above in terms of consistency. We only need him to see off pacers anyway, as long as he keeps doing that the middle order can breathe easy.
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  #7  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:21 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadim 98
"Can you believe it"?
This is getting old very rapidly. Now - rather than cutting and pasting this every other opportunity (what is it now, 4 times already?), why not actually say something interesting pertaining to cricket that encompasses at least 2 sentences.
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  #8  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:25 PM
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yes, Zunaed Siddique has done a great job I do not care he missed out on a 50...the First ten overs + no wickets => about 80-90% of the time in the history of Cricket The team comes out on top...do the research!
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Old August 16, 2009, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM

Bottom line: We need to do major repair to our fielding and bowling infrastructure. If a team whose test status is flickering against blizzards of criticism can produce a player who is capable of scoring 194*, it sure sounds ominous for us to play the top 8 teams.
-----------------------------------------------


ekkere amar moner kotha koisen.........now i can say tht i was right on the other thread.......party time is over now!
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Old August 16, 2009, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
This is getting old very rapidly. Now - rather than cutting and pasting this every other opportunity (what is it now, 4 times already?), why not actually say something interesting pertaining to cricket that encompasses at least 2 sentences.
Hi Zunaid.
How are you?
I love Cricket.

3 Sentences
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  #11  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capslock
I disagree on Junaid, if you look at the history of our openers, he's head and shoulders above in terms of consistency. We only need him to see off pacers anyway, as long as he keeps doing that the middle order can breathe easy.
Mat---Inns--NO--Runs--HS-- Ave---- BF-- SR ----100--50-
23----23-----0--- 433---85--18.82-- 731-- 59.23- 0---2--

Dear capslock vai,

Can we really afford an opener with an average of less than 19 with shaky SR and only 2 ODI 50s under his belt? Over and over again, he will lose his wicket putting early pressure on our team. He lacks the temperment and only achievement he had was his 80something runs in T20 against Pakistan which made him a hearthrob poster boy for our country without producing anything worthwhile.

As preposterous may sound, I'd rather open with Ashraful because of Junaid's volatile nature than have the same thing in roundabout way by having him give away his wicket early.

Thoughts?

:-)
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The guy you hit? If he got a look at the plates, it won't even take that long. There's no play here. There's no angle, there's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up.
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  #12  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:29 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
Hi Zunaid.
How are you?
I love Cricket.

3 Sentences
Wise a$$. However, only one sentence pertained to cricket.

ObCricket - Is it just me or has there been degradation in the quality of our fielding of late?
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  #13  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:33 PM
ZunaidH ZunaidH is offline
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Zeeshan (the Munshi);

Your analysis is fundamentally flawed. In this series, we have fielded a third string bowling attack that put extra pressure on the regular bowlers and forced us to experiment with what we did in ODI - 3. Take a win as it has come and I recommend not extrapolating the performances in this match be defining what we should and should not be worried about in the future matches with whomever, whatever.

Just would like to remind you that the same team had put significant pressure on Srilanka, NZ and Australia not so long ago.

Bottom line: No repair work is needed. In the last 2 decades Bangladesh is by far most improved cricket nation in the history of cricket. One match does not define anything either way.
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  #14  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
As preposterous may sound, I'd rather open with Ashraful because of Junaid's volatile nature than have the same thing in roundabout way by having him give away his wicket early.

Here are the top 50 partnership records from the past 12 months. See how often Junaid figures in them.

Mohammad Ashraful, Tamim Iqbal 2 137 21.5 6.27 1/30 2/167 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 9 Aug 2009
Raqibul Hasan, Tamim Iqbal 3 119 19.3 6.10 2/94 3/213 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 16 Aug 2009
Junaid Siddique, Mohammad Ashraful 3 109 19.4 5.54 2/85 3/194 2
v New Zealand Dhaka (SBNS) 9 Oct 2008
Raqibul Hasan, Shakib Al Hasan 4 96 9.3 10.10 3/155 4/251 1
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 11 Aug 2009
Mohammad Ashraful, Shakib Al Hasan 5 92 19.5 4.63 4/77 5/169 2
v South Africa Potchefstroom 7 Nov 2008
Mohammad Ashraful, Shakib Al Hasan 4 91 15.0 6.06 3/11 4/102 2
v Sri Lanka Dhaka (SBNS) 14 Jan 2009
Mahmudullah, Shakib Al Hasan 6 79 11.0 7.18 5/149 6/228 1
v West Indies Roseau 26 Jul 2009
Junaid Siddique, Mohammad Ashraful 2 74 16.4 4.44 1/0 2/74 1
v West Indies Roseau 26 Jul 2009
Mohammad Ashraful, Shakib Al Hasan 4 74 10.3 7.04 3/116 4/190 2
v West Indies Roseau 28 Jul 2009
Junaid Siddique, Tamim Iqbal 1 71 15.1 4.68 - 1/71 1
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 11 Aug 2009
Mushfiqur Rahim, Raqibul Hasan 5 68 13.0 5.23 4/39 5/107 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 14 Aug 2009
Junaid Siddique, Tamim Iqbal 1 68 9.4 7.03 - 1/68 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 16 Aug 2009
Junaid Siddique, Mushfiqur Rahim 2 67 19.5 3.37 1/18 2/85 2
v New Zealand Dhaka (SBNS) 9 Oct 2008
Mahbubul Alam, Mehrab Hossain jnr 8 65 9.2 6.96 7/173 8/238 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 14 Aug 2009
Shakib Al Hasan, Tamim Iqbal 4 60 10.1 5.90 3/22 4/82 2
v Australia Darwin 6 Sep 2008
Raqibul Hasan, Shakib Al Hasan 5 59 14.0 4.21 4/33 5/92 2
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 10 Jan 2009
Mohammad Ashraful, Tamim Iqbal 3 54 7.0 7.71 2/19 3/73 2
v South Africa Potchefstroom 7 Nov 2008
Junaid Siddique, Tamim Iqbal 1 54 8.2 6.48 - 1/54 2
v West Indies Basseterre 31 Jul 2009
Junaid Siddique, Mohammad Ashraful 3 53 18.2 2.89 2/18 3/71 2
v New Zealand Dhaka (SBNS) 11 Oct 2008
Abdur Razzak, Mashrafe Mortaza 9 53 7.3 7.06 8/172 9/225 2
v South Africa Benoni 9 Nov 2008
Naeem Islam, Raqibul Hasan 7 53 15.2 3.45 6/98 7/151 1
v Sri Lanka Dhaka (SBNS) 16 Jan 2009
Mehrab Hossain jnr, Raqibul Hasan 3 52 12.3 4.16 2/42 3/94 2
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 21 Jan 2009
Mohammad Ashraful, Raqibul Hasan 3 52 12.1 4.27 2/64 3/116 2
v West Indies Roseau 28 Jul 2009
Mahmudullah, Mushfiqur Rahim 6 50 12.0 4.16 5/133 6/183 2
v West Indies Basseterre 31 Jul 2009
Mahmudullah, Naeem Islam 7 49 7.1 6.83 6/183 7/232 2
v West Indies Basseterre 31 Jul 2009
Mushfiqur Rahim, Shakib Al Hasan 5 48 6.5 7.02 4/190 5/238 2
v West Indies Roseau 28 Jul 2009
Abdur Razzak, Naeem Islam 8 46 11.4 3.94 7/98 8/144 2
v New Zealand Chittagong (CDS) 14 Oct 2008
Imrul Kayes, Tamim Iqbal 1 46 5.0 9.20 - 1/46 2
v South Africa Benoni 9 Nov 2008
Junaid Siddique, Tamim Iqbal 1 46 10.2 4.45 - 1/46 2
v West Indies Roseau 28 Jul 2009
Shakib Al Hasan, Tamim Iqbal 3 45 7.3 6.00 2/110 3/155 1
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 11 Aug 2009
Mohammad Ashraful, Raqibul Hasan 3 44* 8.5 4.98 2/167 2/211 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 9 Aug 2009
Mahmudullah, Raqibul Hasan 6 44 13.3 3.25 5/54 6/98 1
v Sri Lanka Dhaka (SBNS) 16 Jan 2009
Imrul Kayes, Junaid Siddique 2 42 11.1 3.76 1/46 2/88 2
v South Africa Benoni 9 Nov 2008
Mushfiqur Rahim, Shakib Al Hasan 6 42 3.3 12.00 5/251 6/293 1
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 11 Aug 2009
Mehrab Hossain jnr, Raqibul Hasan 7 42 6.0 7.00 6/131 7/173 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 14 Aug 2009
Raqibul Hasan, Shakib Al Hasan 4 41 8.5 4.64 3/94 4/135 2
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 21 Jan 2009
Mohammad Ashraful, Tamim Iqbal 2 39 10.2 3.77 1/71 2/110 1
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 11 Aug 2009
Junaid Siddique, Shakib Al Hasan 4 38 11.1 3.40 3/15 4/53 1
v Australia Darwin 3 Sep 2008
Mehrab Hossain jnr, Tamim Iqbal 1 38 8.5 4.30 - 1/38 2
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 23 Jan 2009
Imrul Kayes, Tamim Iqbal 2 36 9.0 4.00 1/13 2/49 2
v New Zealand Chittagong (CDS) 14 Oct 2008
Raqibul Hasan, Shakib Al Hasan 4 35 6.1 5.67 3/31 4/66 1
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 19 Jan 2009
Mahmudullah, Mushfiqur Rahim 6 34 12.2 2.75 5/69 6/103 1
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 19 Jan 2009
Shakib Al Hasan, Tamim Iqbal 4 33 3.4 9.00 3/213 4/246 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 16 Aug 2009
Mushfiqur Rahim, Tamim Iqbal 5 33 4.3 7.33 4/246 5/279 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 16 Aug 2009
Mushfiqur Rahim, Shakib Al Hasan 5 32* 7.4 4.17 4/89 4/121 2
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 23 Jan 2009
Mehrab Hossain jnr, Tamim Iqbal 1 32 8.5 3.62 - 1/32 2
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 21 Jan 2009
Junaid Siddique, Shakib Al Hasan 4 32 4.3 7.11 3/96 4/128 2
v West Indies Basseterre 31 Jul 2009
Naeem Islam, Shakib Al Hasan 7 31 8.0 3.87 6/95 7/126 2
v Zimbabwe Dhaka (SBNS) 10 Jan 2009
Mohammad Ashraful, Shakib Al Hasan 4 31 7.5 3.95 3/97 4/128 1
v West Indies Roseau 26 Jul 2009
Junaid Siddique, Tamim Iqbal 1 30 3.5 7.82 - 1/30 2
v Zimbabwe Bulawayo 9 Aug 2009
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  #15  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:35 PM
capslock capslock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
Mat---Inns--NO--Runs--HS-- Ave---- BF-- SR ----100--50-
23----23-----0--- 433---85--18.82-- 731-- 59.23- 0---2--

Dear capslock vai,

Can we really afford an opener with an average of less than 19 with shaky SR and only 2 ODI 50s under his belt? Over and over again, he will lose his wicket putting early pressure on our team. He lacks the temperment and only achievement he had was his 80something runs in T20 against Pakistan which made him a hearthrob poster boy for our country without producing anything worthwhile.

As preposterous may sound, I'd rather open with Ashraful because of Junaid's volatile nature than have the same thing in roundabout way by having him give away his wicket early.

Thoughts?

:-)
No way! Ashraful's average is barely better. You can't ignore the fact that even though Junaid's average is low, is innings of late have been improving. Thanks to the improved batting of the rest of the team Ashraful has become the crazy old uncle in the family who we can afford to humour.

The only alternative I could see for Junaid is SN, but then we have two left handers opening rather than the current left-right combo.
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  #16  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZunaidH
Zeeshan (the Munshi);

Your analysis is fundamentally flawed. In this series, we have fielded a third string bowling attack that put extra pressure on the regular bowlers and forced us to experiment with what we did in ODI - 3. Take a win as it has come and I recommend not extrapolating the performances in this match be defining what we should and should not be worried about in the future matches with whomever, whatever.

Just would like to remind you that the same team had put significant pressure on Srilanka, NZ and Australia not so long ago.

Bottom line: No repair work is needed. In the last 2 decades Bangladesh is by far most improved cricket nation in the history of cricket. One match does not define anything either way.

I agree with ZunaidH. Except that I would say, "No significant repair work is needed."

After loosing players on ICL and bowlers on injury we are essentially playing a deflated bowling attack. Considering those facts, I think we have come a long way.
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  #17  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:40 PM
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@ capslock vai

No that was an hyperbole. Of course, Ash's niche is his #3 slot and I wouldn't wanna see him open. But, from what I have seen Imrul Kayes can be more solid in terms of wicket preserving than Junaid.
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The guy you hit? If he got a look at the plates, it won't even take that long. There's no play here. There's no angle, there's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up.
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  #18  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capslock

The only alternative I could see for Junaid is SN, but then we have two left handers opening rather than the current left-right combo.
Junaid is a southpaw
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  #19  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capslock
I disagree on Junaid, if you look at the history of our openers, he's head and shoulders above in terms of consistency. We only need him to see off pacers anyway, as long as he keeps doing that the middle order can breathe easy.
Completely agree with u
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  #20  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
@ capslock vai

No that was an hyperbole. Of course, Ash's niche is his #3 slot and I wouldn't wanna see him open. But, from what I have seen Imrul Kayes can be more solid in terms of wicket preserving than Junaid.
now i have to disagree with u........if u blame junaid for not preserving the wicket then u have to blame ash so as tamim so as other bd batsmans............the only thing is that if someone got patience then he wouldn't throw his wicket away.........tamim sakib rakib and riyader er kichu ta ase.......but baki gula ailam r gelam
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  #21  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
Here are the top 50 partnership records from the past 12 months. See how often Junaid figures in them.
Nice to see Zunaid boss is backing up another Junaid! :p

Forgive my skepticism, but how do I find out the ratio of Junaid's participation in those partnership? Given the fact he is an opener, if Tamim say scores 90% bulk of the runs and Junaid merely hangs in there gnawing away at the balls dropping his own SR, that can hardly be considered a contribution.
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The guy you hit? If he got a look at the plates, it won't even take that long. There's no play here. There's no angle, there's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up.
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  #22  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:54 PM
capslock capslock is offline
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I stand corrected about Junaid being a southpaw.

Anyway, Zeeshan, what serious alternatives are proposing to Junaid? Imrul averages 9 in ODIs with a strike rate of 35. I feel you're unfairly singling out Junaid when he seems to be first opener in a long while to provide some stability to our top order.
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  #23  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:58 PM
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Rifat Rifat is offline
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Furthermore,

if you narrow down "Top 50" to "Top 20" Zunaed Siddique will have even a more upper hand...
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  #24  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:59 PM
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Nadim Nadim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
This is getting old very rapidly. Now - rather than cutting and pasting this every other opportunity (what is it now, 4 times already?), why not actually say something interesting pertaining to cricket that encompasses at least 2 sentences.
I'm sorry boss........kintu ami to ai post ta onno thread e post korchilam kintu ekhane aslo ki kore? any bug? (btw i removed it from this thread)
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Old August 16, 2009, 01:09 PM
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Sohel Sohel is offline
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Good thread G-Man. I always enjoy reading what to have to say and more often than not, how you say it. Interesting mind. Fielding is an area where one can always improve with hard work.

Seam bowling wise, I don't think we'll see inadequate and incorrectly selected guys like Robin Akram and Nazmul McGrath after Koushik and RBX get healthy, and fundamentally better bowlers like Talha, Shubhashish, an improved Rajib, Shumon, Sajid, and for the shorter versions, Farhad, Shahzada, Zia, Milon and even an improved Tapash get their chances one of these days. I haven't given up hope on Dolar (that's how the modon spells his name) either for those versions.

Robin has a future in T20Is because he's capable of bowling 4 decent overs and has hitting ability. When? How? Don't know, don't care ...
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