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  #6301  
Old August 22, 2012, 11:01 AM
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BrianLara7 BrianLara7 is offline
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Some fans need to get out of this nationalistic BS and comparing Shakib with one of the greatest to ever play the game.
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  #6302  
Old August 22, 2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalpurush
Hei, look who is #1!!!?



IDRat.NameNat.Career Best Rating
1404Shakib Al Hasan 404 v Pakistan, 17/12/2011
2390J.H. Kallis 616 v Pakistan, 26/12/2002
3334S.R. Watson 394 v South Africa, 17/11/2011
4320D.L. Vettori 412 v Pakistan, 11/12/2009
5318S.C.J. Broad 382 v Pakistan, 25/01/2012
6250G.P. Swann 327 v Bangladesh, 12/03/2010
7239V.D. Philander 239 v England, 16/08/2012
8229D.J.G. Sammy 236 v England, 07/06/2012
9204D.W. Steyn 229 v Sri Lanka, 26/12/2011
10198P.M. Siddle 218 v India, 24/01/2012


http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/r...t/all-rounder/
According to your logic Azhar Ali is a better batsman than tendulkar because current ranking says so.
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  #6303  
Old August 22, 2012, 11:14 AM
M.H.Rubel M.H.Rubel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianLara7
Odi records taking out minnows (only top 8 teams)- Shakib- bat avg 30.57 bowl avg 34.31
Kallis- bat avg 43.62 bowl avg 32.20
Watson- bat avg 37.39 bowl avg 30.17

In tests comparison with Kallis is foolishness, even Watson has a far superior record to Shakib in both batting and bowling.

Shakib bat avg 34.68 bowl avg 31.36
Watson bat avg 37.54 bowl avg 28.91
Thanks for the comparison.
These stats shows the real quality. So originally shakib is behind them. But one thing is important here, Shakib is very young and he is improving both his bowling and batting.
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  #6304  
Old August 22, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianLara7
Odi records taking out minnows (only top 8 teams)- Shakib- bat avg 30.57 bowl avg 34.31
Kallis- bat avg 43.62 bowl avg 32.20
Watson- bat avg 37.39 bowl avg 30.17

In tests comparison with Kallis is foolishness, even Watson has a far superior record to Shakib in both batting and bowling.

Shakib bat avg 34.68 bowl avg 31.36
Watson bat avg 37.54 bowl avg 28.91
Firstly, always provide a source when quoting statistics.

Secondly, quoting such statistics without context is pointless. For instance, Watson's bowling average not only reflects his ability to take a wicket for every 30 runs conceded but also the ability of other Australian bowlers to exert pressure on opposition batsmen, Australian fielders and wicket-keepers snaring most of the dismissal opportunities coming their way, etc. Even so, it is clear that bowling averages and strike rates do not paint a complete picture as they do not reflect the dependency of the team on that particular player. The same goes for Kallis with his batting exploits.

I believe that when considering the relative 'greatness' of a player, their statistics should be measured against the statistics of those who he plays with. The bigger the difference in statistics such as batting average, bowling average, strike rate etc. from the team mean, the more likely that the team depends on him. Measuring a player who is himself not a part of the G-8 against players who are part of the G-8 involves skewed calculations as it is not an even playing field. It makes no sense to exclude non-G8 members from the statistics we consider as BD plays most of its matches against low ranked countries and is itself a member of the non-G8!

On that premise, Shakib is obviously already a BD great but to determine whether he would stack up to G8 players, BD must become part of the G8 themselves.
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  #6305  
Old August 22, 2012, 11:46 AM
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Welcome back Navo! Didn't see you here in a while.
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  #6306  
Old August 22, 2012, 11:47 AM
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good post Ukil miya
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  #6307  
Old August 22, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navo
Firstly, always provide a source when quoting statistics.

Secondly, quoting such statistics without context is pointless. For instance, Watson's bowling average not only reflects his ability to take a wicket for every 30 runs conceded but also the ability of other Australian bowlers to exert pressure on opposition batsmen, Australian fielders and wicket-keepers snaring most of the dismissal opportunities coming their way, etc. Even so, it is clear that bowling averages and strike rates do not paint a complete picture as they do not reflect the dependency of the team on that particular player. The same goes for Kallis with his batting exploits.

I believe that when considering the relative 'greatness' of a player, their statistics should be measured against the statistics of those who he plays with. The bigger the difference in statistics such as batting average, bowling average, strike rate etc. from the team mean, the more likely that the team depends on him. Measuring a player who is himself not a part of the G-8 against players who are part of the G-8 involves skewed calculations as it is not an even playing field. It makes no sense to exclude non-G8 members from the statistics we consider as BD plays most of its matches against low ranked countries and is itself a member of the non-G8!

On that premise, Shakib is obviously already a BD great but to determine whether he would stack up to G8 players, BD must become part of the G8 themselves.
Exactly !!!

It's really unnecessary to compare Shakib with some other great AR when we all know how valuable a player like Shakib is to a low ranked team like BD. I don't think either Kallis/ Watson adds the same value as Shakib does for BD.. Australia was even thinking to continue without Watson when he was trying to make a comeback after his injury.. SA will still manage to win even if Kallis is not there. But BD still can't afford to sit out Shakib.. Yes u have to look at this value added side of the game..

I don't understand why Shakib have to be Kallis or surpass him??? Kallis is Kallis and let Shakib be Shakib... Now even if people doesn't care about ICC ranking the truth is atm Shakib is dominating the table with his consistent performance in both ODI n Tests.. There is no other AR who was able to dethrone Kallis for sooo many years.. But Shakib did it.. That of course doesn't mean Shakib is better than Kallis but it shows Shakib is posing competition to a great player like Kallis... This is a huge achievement for a cricketer from a country who hardly gets chance to play Tests.. So we should give credit where it is due.. We should just enjoy and be proud of his achievements and wish him so that one day he can reach those heights of those greats !!!
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  #6308  
Old August 22, 2012, 12:19 PM
Dilscoop Dilscoop is offline
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I don't get it. So one party is comparing Kallis v Shakib; players' abilities and skills based on stats. And another group is arguing about their value. That's 2 different thing.

Ray Price adds great value 2 Zim, that doesn't make him extra good. It doesn't add anything to his skills.
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  #6309  
Old August 22, 2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
I don't get it. So one party is comparing Kallis v Shakib; players' abilities and skills based on stats. And another group is arguing about their value. That's 2 different thing.

Ray Price adds great value 2 Zim, that doesn't make him extra good. It doesn't add anything to his skills.
Spot on, Even ravindra jadeja might be the mvp of indian team one day if they really start to suck.. doesnt mean he will be regarded as a great. Shakib is clearly our best ever and one of the best AR in the game right now but comparisons with Kallis is just ridiculous
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  #6310  
Old August 22, 2012, 12:49 PM
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Funny to bring up the examples of Ray Price or Jadeja... Neither of these players are in the same line as Kallis/ Watson/Shakib... We are comparing among the current best ARs ... They all have good stats than any other AR atm.. So no point in bringing up some no name ARs in the discussion.. And even in the value added arguement neither me or Navo has said that Shakib is better than Kallis ... We are just saying Shakib is doing a great job with all the limitations he has and with much less support from his team and he has already achieved so much that we can even dare to compare him with Kallis... So why belittle his achievements?? He doesn't have to be Kallis as he is much more valueable for BD than Kallis is for SA at the moment ...This is the key word "at the moment".. no point in comparing Kallis's 17 yrs long career stats with Shakib's 6 yrs career stats... Why don't we leave the comparison for now and wait to see how far Shakib can go... Let the boy grow for God's sake...
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  #6311  
Old August 22, 2012, 12:54 PM
Dilscoop Dilscoop is offline
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^ LOL Ray Price is not AR. I used him as an example since he is one of the most valuable player in Zim. I wasn't comparing him with the ARs. So obviously you missed the point I was trying to make. NVM...
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  #6312  
Old August 22, 2012, 01:08 PM
oronnya oronnya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
^ LOL Ray Price is not AR. I used him as an example since he is one of the most valuable player in Zim. I wasn't comparing him with the ARs. So obviously you missed the point I was trying to make. NVM...
I know (funny to assume stuffs)...I was pointing to Jadeja ... he is a no name AR.. even Indians don't consider him as a good AR...n I didn't miss your point even Ray Price is not among the top 10 bowlers ... So he didn't make much impact in the world.. But that's not the case for Shakib... Shakib is 1 of the best spinners in the world...I think you are missing my point here... All I'm saying is to stop comparing Shakib to Kallis...
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  #6313  
Old August 22, 2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya
Funny to bring up the examples of Ray Price or Jadeja... Neither of these players are in the same line as Kallis/ Watson/Shakib... We are comparing among the current best ARs ... They all have good stats than any other AR atm.. So no point in bringing up some no name ARs in the discussion.. And even in the value added arguement neither me or Navo has said that Shakib is better than Kallis ... We are just saying Shakib is doing a great job with all the limitations he has and with much less support from his team and he has already achieved so much that we can even dare to compare him with Kallis... So why belittle his achievements?? He doesn't have to be Kallis as he is much more valueable for BD than Kallis is for SA at the moment ...This is the key word "at the moment".. no point in comparing Kallis's 17 yrs long career stats with Shakib's 6 yrs career stats... Why don't we leave the comparison for now and wait to see how far Shakib can go... Let the boy grow for God's sake...
That has more to do with BD being a crap team compared to SA... Just ask yourself who would you rather have in BD team if both of them were Bangladeshi, Kallis or Shakib? I would rather have a guy who is unarguably one of the greatest cricketers ever. Kallis playing for BD would be more valuable to us than Shakib, all nationalistic bias aside.
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  #6314  
Old August 22, 2012, 01:23 PM
oronnya oronnya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianLara7
That has more to do with BD being a crap team compared to SA... Just ask yourself who would you rather have in BD team if both of them were Bangladeshi, Kallis or Shakib? I would rather have a guy who is unarguably one of the greatest cricketers ever. Kallis playing for BD would be more valuable to us than Shakib, all nationalistic bias aside.
And who is saying Shakib is better than Kallis again ?????

If you are given the option you will pick Tendulkar, Lara, Kallis, Imran, Akram, Murali and so on.... But the truth is we don't have that option..., Come out of the obsession with all great names of the world... They are where they are... no one can ever take their place and it's really unnecessary to compare them to someone else...

I am happy with my kana, khora , lengra team and if you ask me I will ALWAYS and ALWAYS pick Shakib, Tamim, Mushy, Nasir, Mashrafee, Razzak, Sunny, Riyad over any other great names.... I am proud of what they have achieved so far and I will always pray and hope that one day they reach those heights of those greats... That's it...
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  #6315  
Old August 22, 2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya
I know (funny to assume stuffs)...I was pointing to Jadeja ... he is a no name AR.. even Indians don't consider him as a good AR...nI didn't miss your point even Ray Price is not among the top 10 bowlers ... So he didn't make much impact in the world.. But that's not the case for Shakib... Shakib is 1 of the best spinners in the world...I think you are missing my point here... All I'm saying is to stop comparing Shakib to Kallis...
Yup you did miss it. You are still not getting what I'm getting at. Ray Rice is Zim main/number 1/best bowler. And based on "Shakib_adds_more_value_to_his_team_than_Kallis" logic, Price should be rated higher than his actual abilities/stats or it should be counted during comparison.

I'm saying stop comparing Kallis to Shakib as well. So idk why we are discussing this.
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  #6316  
Old August 22, 2012, 01:34 PM
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Now it totally makes sense why Lakers' fans get so angry when LBJ fanboys compare him with Kobe. Like, really.
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  #6317  
Old August 22, 2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
Yup you did miss it. You are still not getting what I'm getting at. Ray Rice is Zim main/number 1/best bowler. And based on "Shakib_adds_more_value_to_his_team_than_Kallis" logic, Price should be rated higher than his actual abilities/stats or it should be counted during comparison.

I'm saying stop comparing Kallis to Shakib as well. So idk why we are discussing this.
Yup end of discussion !!
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  #6318  
Old August 22, 2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
I don't get it. So one party is comparing Kallis v Shakib; players' abilities and skills based on stats. And another group is arguing about their value. That's 2 different thing.

Ray Price adds great value 2 Zim, that doesn't make him extra good. It doesn't add anything to his skills.
I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. I was arguing that the value one adds to a team should be considered among the factors one looks at when determining a player's abilities or even his elusive 'greatness'. It isn't a skill per se but is a variable factor that helps contextualize the statistics everyone else is using. Hadlee is considered a great allrounder - rather than just a great bowler - because of the few match winning knocks he played when everyone else in his largely mediocre side crumbled. The gap between him and the rest of his team was so immense that it added to his formidable aura. Less esoterically, a notable difference between the statistics of one player and the team mean is quite exceptional in cricket. We marvel at the statistics of players like Ponting but when we look at the exalted Aussie batting line up pre-2007, we notice that they all averaged 40 or higher. The same goes for bowling too. Players like Shakib, Hadlee, Kapil, etc. are truly unique. You mentioned the example of Ray Price but let me give you another Zimbabwean: Andy Flower. As an isolated example, he may not be considered a great of the game but as someone who single-handedly saved Zim from ignominy regularly, he is.

In the end it is important to remember this - Jacques Kallis is an all-time great but he is an all-time great that has been groomed in a high-quality South African set-up and has played for a high-quality team. He is not the only RSA player to have averaged in the 50s for his batting. He's not their first great all-rounder (think Mike Proctor!) and is not their first sporting icon.

Cricketing greatness does not only come down to cold, seemingly 'objective' statistics, even when considered on a global scale. Factors such as value to a team, charisma, longevity, etc. all come into it.

TL; DR: While I have always agreed with you that comparing Shakib to Kallis is nonsensical (at least for now), I disagree that 'value to one's team' is distinct from statistical considerations.
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  #6319  
Old August 22, 2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by zinatf
Welcome back Navo! Didn't see you here in a while.
Moved back to Dhaka recently. Settling in, Looking for Jobs, Eid, Poor Internet etc the list of excuses is endless. Will try to be more regular from now on.
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  #6320  
Old August 22, 2012, 05:52 PM
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LOL I like how Navo bhaia always has a tooldar thingy going on in his recent posts. :p
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  #6321  
Old August 22, 2012, 05:56 PM
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LOL I like how Navo bhaia always has a tooldar thingy going on in his recent posts. :p
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  #6322  
Old August 22, 2012, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya
And who is saying Shakib is better than Kallis again ?????

If you are given the option you will pick Tendulkar, Lara, Kallis, Imran, Akram, Murali and so on.... But the truth is we don't have that option..., Come out of the obsession with all great names of the world... They are where they are... no one can ever take their place and it's really unnecessary to compare them to someone else...

I am happy with my kana, khora , lengra team and if you ask me I will ALWAYS and ALWAYS pick Shakib, Tamim, Mushy, Nasir, Mashrafee, Razzak, Sunny, Riyad over any other great names.... I am proud of what they have achieved so far and I will always pray and hope that one day they reach those heights of those greats... That's it...
I am just happy our team has 11 players coming to the field who are from bangladeshi origin and not a team made from borrowed players like some teams. I know we lack skills but that is due to our poor cricket infrastructure. What we achieved so far almost entirely is our credit and is a thing to be proud of.
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  #6323  
Old August 22, 2012, 11:35 PM
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Let Kallis be Kallis and let Shakib be Shakib. They're both doing a great job at whatever they're doing and that's all that matters.
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  #6324  
Old August 22, 2012, 11:41 PM
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I don't see any point on comparing Shakib to Kallis/Watson. One has to understand that Kallis (and somewhat watson) is almost at the end of their carrier where as Shakib still has 10 or more years left in the international arena.

These comparasions will become valid once both Shakib and Kallis retires. Keep one thing in mind, 10 years is a very long time. Shakib may keep on performing like he has been all these past years or may loose it at one stage. He may get injured, etc. So keep all the stats and argument on hold till Shakib retires!!

One thing is for sure though, he has been one of the best in the world as a AR at the CURRENT MOMENT! If Jadeja can make in into the top 10 ar list than you know that there is an issue with the current AR's at the moment. Fortunetly for us Shakib has been great.
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  #6325  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navo
Moved back to Dhaka recently. Settling in, Looking for Jobs, Eid, Poor Internet etc the list of excuses is endless. Will try to be more regular from now on.
So jealous! Hope you have a good time there...and don't wory I'm sure you'll be one of the "noted Barristers/lawyers" within a short span of time and we might see you coming regularly in TV/Newspapers
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