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  #6326  
Old August 23, 2012, 09:16 AM
playmaker playmaker is offline
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I dont know who started this Kallis VS Shakib discussion yet again but Im going to find him and steal his salami
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  #6327  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop

Ray Price adds great value 2 Zim, that doesn't make him extra good. It doesn't add anything to his skills.
Ray Price is NOT world's #1alrounder.
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  #6328  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navo
Firstly, always provide a source when quoting statistics.

Secondly, quoting such statistics without context is pointless. For instance, Watson's bowling average not only reflects his ability to take a wicket for every 30 runs conceded but also the ability of other Australian bowlers to exert pressure on opposition batsmen, Australian fielders and wicket-keepers snaring most of the dismissal opportunities coming their way, etc. Even so, it is clear that bowling averages and strike rates do not paint a complete picture as they do not reflect the dependency of the team on that particular player. The same goes for Kallis with his batting exploits.

I believe that when considering the relative 'greatness' of a player, their statistics should be measured against the statistics of those who he plays with. The bigger the difference in statistics such as batting average, bowling average, strike rate etc. from the team mean, the more likely that the team depends on him. Measuring a player who is himself not a part of the G-8 against players who are part of the G-8 involves skewed calculations as it is not an even playing field. It makes no sense to exclude non-G8 members from the statistics we consider as BD plays most of its matches against low ranked countries and is itself a member of the non-G8!

On that premise, Shakib is obviously already a BD great but to determine whether he would stack up to G8 players, BD must become part of the G8 themselves.

Navo, there is a difference between passionate cricket fans and "fanboy" cricket fans - a passionate fan like you can only do a in-depth analysis like the above well said mate.
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  #6329  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya
Exactly !!!

It's really unnecessary to compare Shakib with some other great AR when we all know how valuable a player like Shakib is to a low ranked team like BD. I don't think either Kallis/ Watson adds the same value as Shakib does for BD.. Australia was even thinking to continue without Watson when he was trying to make a comeback after his injury.. SA will still manage to win even if Kallis is not there. But BD still can't afford to sit out Shakib.. Yes u have to look at this value added side of the game..

I don't understand why Shakib have to be Kallis or surpass him??? Kallis is Kallis and let Shakib be Shakib... Now even if people doesn't care about ICC ranking the truth is atm Shakib is dominating the table with his consistent performance in both ODI n Tests.. There is no other AR who was able to dethrone Kallis for sooo many years.. But Shakib did it.. That of course doesn't mean Shakib is better than Kallis but it shows Shakib is posing competition to a great player like Kallis... This is a huge achievement for a cricketer from a country who hardly gets chance to play Tests.. So we should give credit where it is due.. We should just enjoy and be proud of his achievements and wish him so that one day he can reach those heights of those greats !!!
nicely said - Kallis is Kallis and Shakib is Shakib - no comparison can be made IMHO.

One is the ex #1, the other is the current #1
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  #6330  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:19 PM
Dilscoop Dilscoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalpurush
Ray Price is NOT world's #1alrounder.
Just LOL. Once again, *Whoosh*

And now it's making me angry. Yup. Now I'm angry.
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  #6331  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
Just LOL. Once again, *Whoosh*

And now it's making me angry. Yup. Now I'm angry.

When you compare Shakib against Ray price, I don't get angry, but have a good laugh
instead!!!
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  #6332  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:41 PM
Dilscoop Dilscoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalpurush
When you compare Shakib against Ray price, I don't get angry, but have a good laugh instead!!!
Once again *whoosh*...

I challenge you to show and explain how and where I was comparing Price to Shakib.
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  #6333  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:43 PM
Dilscoop Dilscoop is offline
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Welcome to my rickshawalla list KP.
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  #6334  
Old August 23, 2012, 12:53 PM
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Dont know if this vdo was shared before. Shakib getting an amazing respect.
Worth sharing more than once anyway.

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  #6335  
Old August 23, 2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
Once again *whoosh*...

I challenge you to show and explain how and where I was comparing Price to Shakib.
The answer is in your post!
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  #6336  
Old August 23, 2012, 01:18 PM
Dilscoop Dilscoop is offline
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Read it and read it again. If it helps, read my following post. Then show me how it's comparing.

Obviously your definition of "comparison/comparing" is weird. :s

Can anyone else tell me how I'm comparing Price, a bowler to Shakib, the ALR.
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  #6337  
Old August 23, 2012, 01:22 PM
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Dil - the subtle difference between analogy and direct comparison is getting lost here.
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  #6338  
Old August 23, 2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
Dil - the subtle difference between analogy and direct comparison is getting lost here.
Indeed Razab bhai.

Navo explained how mountain high impact Shak has in Bangladesh team conpare to Kallis is not comparable at all. Shak has to play many more years to be a all time great to be a Kallis, thus, comparing the two at this moment is not valid.

On current form though, Shak is the #1, which could be changed at any time too!
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  #6339  
Old August 23, 2012, 02:05 PM
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When a Player from a country like Bangladesh can retain Best Al rounder in ODI for more than two yrs. ,
then he could be comparable with any greats . If Bangladesh has played number of tests like SA , Shakib would have risen much higher than Kallis. We have seen Shakib and Kallis played together with KKR and Shakib's performances were better than Kallis though he got less exposures !!
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  #6340  
Old August 23, 2012, 02:49 PM
Dilscoop Dilscoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalpurush
Indeed Razab bhai.

Navo explained how mountain high impact Shak has in Bangladesh team conpare to Kallis is not comparable at all. Shak has to play many more years to be a all time great to be a Kallis, thus, comparing the two at this moment is not valid.

On current form though, Shak is the #1, which could be changed at any time too!
Once again, we are going around in circle. You bring up the "impact" part again, and hence my EXAMPLE, not comparison, of Ray Price. I could've used any other player, but I used him, obviously not because Shakib and Ray Price is similar in any way possible, nor he is the No.1 All Rounder. I used his name because of his impact on Zim side. He is currently one of their main players. But that shouldn't give him extra "points" while rating him. Just like it shouldn't give Shakib an extra point for being the main guy in BD side. It's BD's fault for not having more quality players in the team, not Shakib's credibility. It is not Kallis' fault for SA having more World class players in the team, that shouldn't take anything away from him. And that was the point I was trying to make.

I don't want to consider "player's impact" while trying to make a player vs player comparison. I don't understand why there is even a comparison between these 2 players in the first place. Shakib just hasn't played enough games/years to even come into this discussion. And everyone keeps saying, "lets wait 10 years," yet they keep dragging this nonsense "comparison." A better comparison would be Kapil Dev v Imran Khan, Kallis vs Freddie. Talk about impact.

At this point you can only compare Shakib to Watson, and Shakib wins hands down.
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  #6341  
Old August 23, 2012, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
Just LOL. Once again, *Whoosh*

And now it's making me angry. Yup. Now I'm angry.
It's amusing to see how you're being condescending to other members without deigning to respond to one who has provided a riposte to your argument.
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  #6342  
Old August 23, 2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
Once again, we are going around in circle. You bring up the "impact" part again, and hence my EXAMPLE, not comparison, of Ray Price. I could've used any other player, but I used him, obviously not because Shakib and Ray Price is similar in any way possible, nor he is the No.1 All Rounder. I used his name because of his impact on Zim side. He is currently one of their main players. But that shouldn't give him extra "points" while rating him. Just like it shouldn't give Shakib an extra point for being the main guy in BD side. It's BD's fault for not having more quality players in the team, not Shakib's credibility. It is not Kallis' fault for SA having more World class players in the team, that shouldn't take anything away from him. And that was the point I was trying to make.

I don't want to consider "player's impact" while trying to make a player vs player comparison. I don't understand why there is even a comparison between these 2 players in the first place. Shakib just hasn't played enough games/years to even come into this discussion. And everyone keeps saying, "lets wait 10 years," yet they keep dragging this nonsense "comparison." A better comparison would be Kapil Dev v Imran Khan, Kallis vs Freddie. Talk about impact.

At this point you can only compare Shakib to Watson, and Shakib wins hands down.
I agree with your point regarding comparisons between Kallis and Shakib being futile at this point but I disagree that "player impact to team" is inconsequential in player vs. player comparison. It may not be Kallis' fault that he plays for a world class team but it is certainly to Shakib's credit that he has been able to perform commendably in a team that can often be poor.

It takes greater effort to achieve even relatively modest successes. (This is after all a team sport) It also takes a certain mongrel, indefatigable spirit that can't be quantified in statistics. The fact that Hadlee and Andy Flower shone among their comparatively mediocre teammates is part of the reason why they're remembered as greats whereas objectively 'great' players like Graeme Pollock (who averaged 60+!) are often forgotten when such discussions arise.

It may smack of affirmative action for those less fortunate but it's necessary to even out the playing field.
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  #6343  
Old August 23, 2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilscoop
Once again, we are going around in circle. You bring up the "impact" part again, and hence my EXAMPLE, not comparison, of Ray Price. I could've used any other player, but I used him, obviously not because Shakib and Ray Price is similar in any way possible, nor he is the No.1 All Rounder. I used his name because of his impact on Zim side. He is currently one of their main players. But that shouldn't give him extra "points" while rating him. Just like it shouldn't give Shakib an extra point for being the main guy in BD side. It's BD's fault for not having more quality players in the team, not Shakib's credibility. It is not Kallis' fault for SA having more World class players in the team, that shouldn't take anything away from him. And that was the point I was trying to make.

I don't want to consider "player's impact" while trying to make a player vs player comparison. I don't understand why there is even a comparison between these 2 players in the first place. Shakib just hasn't played enough games/years to even come into this discussion. And everyone keeps saying, "lets wait 10 years," yet they keep dragging this nonsense "comparison." A better comparison would be Kapil Dev v Imran Khan, Kallis vs Freddie. Talk about impact.

At this point you can only compare Shakib to Watson, and Shakib wins hands down.
SOrry but I have to disagree, I am trying to be objective here. Statistics are the only objective way to compare the two and Watson is better than Shakib in both odi and tests. In my opinion shakib is better but there is no way shakib is unquestionably better than watson.

Odi records taking out minnows (only top 8 teams)-
Shakib- bat avg 30.57 bowl avg 34.31
Watson- bat avg 37.39 bowl avg 30.17

In tests
Shakib bat avg 34.68 bowl avg 31.36
Watson bat avg 37.54 bowl avg 28.91
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  #6344  
Old August 23, 2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mali007
When a Player from a country like Bangladesh can retain Best Al rounder in ODI for more than two yrs. ,
then he could be comparable with any greats . If Bangladesh has played number of tests like SA , Shakib would have risen much higher than Kallis. We have seen Shakib and Kallis played together with KKR and Shakib's performances were better than Kallis though he got less exposures !!
Shakib's batting was poor in IPL. Very poor. Kallis was way better than him. Shakib's bowling was much better than Kallis though.
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  #6345  
Old August 23, 2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianLara7
SOrry but I have to disagree, I am trying to be objective here. Statistics are the only objective way to compare the two and Watson is better than Shakib in both odi and tests. In my opinion shakib is better but there is no way shakib is unquestionably better than watson.

Odi records taking out minnows (only top 8 teams)-
Shakib- bat avg 30.57 bowl avg 34.31
Watson- bat avg 37.39 bowl avg 30.17

In tests
Shakib bat avg 34.68 bowl avg 31.36
Watson bat avg 37.54 bowl avg 28.91
Why are you always taking out the minnows??? BD hardly get a chance to play against big teams.. Shakib played series against SA at the beginning of his career and that's it, BD last played a series against Eng and IND in the early part of 2010 so and so but he became a solid player since the end of 2010. So how many chances did he get to play against the giants since then and how many chance did Watson get?

Only statistical analysis doesn't give you a clear picture.. You need to consider soooo many other variables if you really want to measure greatness of a player.. And if you strictly want to go by the statistics then just accept the fact that currently Shakib is ahead of Watson in AR skills and in terms of consistency.. ICC ranking is based on current statistics right???
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  #6346  
Old August 23, 2012, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodlum
Shakib's batting was poor in IPL. Very poor. Kallis was way better than him. Shakib's bowling was much better than Kallis though.
So they are even .. In batting department Kallis might have done better than Shakib but he didn't play a single match winning knock which was expected of him.. But Shakib gave 2 match winning performances (once with ball and once with both bat n ball )..

Again this doesn't prove Shakib is better cricketer/ AR than Kallis.. It just shows Shakib is up there along with Kallis/ Watson to considered as of the best AR of present time (key point "present time").. Kallis's time is almost coming to an end.. may be within 2 or 3 years he will retire and He will definitely retire as 1 of the all time great AR.. But can't we just be proud and happy that Shakib might be the next generation great AR ? So far he did well let's see if he can continue with this consistency..
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Last edited by oronnya; August 23, 2012 at 05:52 PM..
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  #6347  
Old August 25, 2012, 09:46 AM
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  #6348  
Old August 25, 2012, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya
APA!!! YOU ARE A STAR!!! LOVE YOU have been searching this one and joytu like crazy

moi happy now
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  #6349  
Old August 25, 2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oronnya
....

Only statistical analysis doesn't give you a clear picture.. You need to consider soooo many other variables if you really want to measure greatness of a player.. And if you strictly want to go by the statistics then just accept the fact that currently Shakib is ahead of Watson in AR skills and in terms of consistency.. ICC ranking is based on current statistics right???


Watson isn't compareable to Kallis either... He is a good cricketer as Shakib is.... And currently Shakib is a better ranked player/Allrounder than Watson ... So what's the point trying to prove him better than Shakib??

And if you remove Minnows... Bowling wise India is no better than minnows. And combination of Indian bowling and Indian pitches help to get good batting averages for the players, even after losing matches.... Aus plays so much with Ind these days.. That you can consider batting performances against India in India as sores against minnows.... Remove those as well..
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  #6350  
Old August 25, 2012, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinatf
APA!!! YOU ARE A STAR!!! LOVE YOU have been searching this one and joytu like crazy

moi happy now
he he no prob... But this is just the last part of the prog. I just found this one on youtube today.

I've watched and recorded the full program. As this is the first time I've recorded from an online streaming the file sizes are just too big so failed to upload on youtube . I don't know how to reduce the file size. Searching for a software. Or if an expert BC member can do it for me then everyone will be able to watch it.

I also have recorded the Channel 24 program of Shakib but same problem so can't share

And I still didn't find Joytu .. May be I should just ask Tushar bhai to give me the clips ... he he he..
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