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  #1  
Old January 9, 2010, 05:31 AM
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Default Malaysian church firebombed for using the word "Allah"

Just read it in google news. Though I read a lot of suicide bombings, plane bombing by mentally disturbed members of our religion, this is hitting a new low and that too in a supposedly one of the most "tolerant" Muslim countries in the world.

Its a real shame. I was speechless when I read it.

Link to news

Quote:

Fourth Malaysian church attacked in 'Allah' feud


KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- A fourth church in Malaysia was hit by firebombs Saturday, stoking concern among Christians as a dispute rages over the use of the word "Allah" by non-Muslims.

The latest incident occurred after three other churches were firebombed Friday, just days after a Kuala Lumpur court ruled non-Muslims to use the word "Allah" to refer to God in their literature.

Bishop Philip Loke said two firebombs were believed to have been thrown at his Good Shepherd Lutheran Church early Saturday but missed the glass windows, hitting the building wall instead.

He said church members discovered two burned patches on the wall at midday and found glass splinters on the ground. There was no damage to the three-story building in the Petaling Jaya suburb in central Selangor state.

"Why resort to violence? These attacks are a cowardly act and a crime against the Christian population," Loke told the Associated Press.

The Dec. 31 court decision incensed many Muslims, who see it as a threat to their religion. Hateful comments and threats against Christians have been posted widely on the Internet, but this is the first time the controversy has turned destructive.

Selangor police chief Khalid Abu Bakar said the attacks indicated the work of amateurs.

"We don't think the attacks were planned or coordinated. We believe they were carried out by hooligans or mischievous prankster trying to take advantage to stir the situation," he said.
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Investigations are ongoing but there are no witnesses so far that could help in the probe, he said.

The court ruling followed a petition by Malaysia's Roman Catholic Church, whose main publication, the Herald, uses the word "Allah" in its Malay-language edition. The ruling also applies to the ban's broader applications such as Malay-language Bibles, more than 10,000 copies which were seized last year by authorities because they translated God as Allah.

The Herald says its Malay edition is read mainly by Christian indigenous tribes in the remote states of Sabah and Sarawak, who speak a variety of languages but pray mostly in Malay.

But the government contends that making Allah synonymous with God may confuse Muslims and ultimately mislead to them into converting to Christianity, a punishable offense in Malaysia despite a constitution that guarantees freedom of religion.

It suggests using "Tuhan," but Christians say Tuhan is more like "Lord," and can't replace "Allah."

The debate has split the Muslim community. Hundreds of Muslims held peaceful protests in mosques nationwide Friday but some leading Muslim scholars, activists and opposition politicians have supported the Christians' right to call God Allah.

About 9 percent of Malaysia's 28 million people are Christian, including 800,000 Catholics, most of whom are ethnic Chinese or Indian. Muslims make 60 percent of the population and most of them are Malays.

At least one church canceled its Friday Mass while some other churches have beefed up security.

The Allah ban is unusual in the Muslim world. The Arabic word is commonly used by Christians to describe God in such countries as Egypt and Syria. The confiscated Bibles came from neighboring Indonesia, an overwhelmingly Muslim country.

Bassilius Nassour, a Greek Orthodox bishop in Damascus, Syria, called the Malaysian government's position "shameful."

"It shows Malaysia to be a backward, pagan state because God teaches freedom for everyone, and the word 'Allah' is for everyone," he said.
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  #2  
Old January 9, 2010, 07:26 PM
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retards...just like the radical christians in the US who believe "Allah" and "God" are two seperate entities.

moronic to say the least.
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  #3  
Old January 10, 2010, 06:15 AM
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Based on the debate, Allah and God are 2 different meanings, in the Muslim point of view Allah refers to the one and only God/creator of the universe, if Christians use the word "Allah" what will they be referring to? Christians believe in the trinity, the father the ghost the holy son, we have to understand that if the Christians use the word Allah then they are not specifically referring to "Allah" but could be Jesus, that is why it has caused much concern.
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  #4  
Old January 10, 2010, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdulMotin
Based on the debate, Allah and God are 2 different meanings, in the Muslim point of view Allah refers to the one and only God/creator of the universe, if Christians use the word "Allah" what will they be referring to? Christians believe in the trinity, the father the ghost the holy son, we have to understand that if the Christians use the word Allah then they are not specifically referring to "Allah" but could be Jesus, that is why it has caused much concern.
Not all the Christians believe in Trinity, there're people (unitarians they're called) who accept Jesus as just a human being and not the divine form of God as Trinitarians believe. And regardless of their sects, all of them refer to the Almighty as God.

I know the nature of our creator cannot be described as good as the Arabic word ''Allah'' does, but the closest a word in English that comes to ''Allah'' is ''God''. So I don't think there's a problem if refer to Allah as God in English. It even gets easier for us Muslims to explain to the non-Muslims, otherwise they wouldn't know what Allah means and start to have their own wrong opinions.

And also if you look at the old Aramaic/Hebrew texts of the Old and the New testaments; the words that were used to refer to God were Alaha/Elohim etc etc, which are very close to Allah.

So anyone can use either one.
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  #5  
Old January 10, 2010, 12:01 PM
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these are freaks if they do something like this in the first place then why you going to add gods name in it
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  #6  
Old January 10, 2010, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdulMotin
Based on the debate, Allah and God are 2 different meanings, in the Muslim point of view Allah refers to the one and only God/creator of the universe, if Christians use the word "Allah" what will they be referring to? Christians believe in the trinity, the father the ghost the holy son, we have to understand that if the Christians use the word Allah then they are not specifically referring to "Allah" but could be Jesus, that is why it has caused much concern.
let assume you are correct. christians may (you don't even know) mean jesus when they say allah (actually that makes no sense, if they meant jesus, they can say jesus only.) therefore the "concerned" should firebomb a church ? what morons.
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  #7  
Old January 10, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdulMotin
Based on the debate, Allah and God are 2 different meanings, in the Muslim point of view Allah refers to the one and only God/creator of the universe, if Christians use the word "Allah" what will they be referring to? Christians believe in the trinity, the father the ghost the holy son, we have to understand that if the Christians use the word Allah then they are not specifically referring to "Allah" but could be Jesus, that is why it has caused much concern.
All the Christian Arabs word use the word "Allah" to refer to God.

Allah = Al-Ilah = The Creator = God (capital God in english refers one Creator).

Allah is just a reference to imply that you are talking about the Creator, the God. God doesn't have a name like you and me; and Allah is not His name.
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Last edited by Nasif; January 10, 2010 at 05:29 PM..
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  #8  
Old January 10, 2010, 05:23 PM
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Not to stir a religious debate here, or may be I do... but I wonder how mainstream muslims feel about the usage of "Mecca" in...not so conventional context. Once I went to a superbowl game and there was an ad describing some club/bar as the mecca of all fun events or something like that.
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  #9  
Old January 10, 2010, 05:59 PM
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or the lords ground as the 'mecca of cricket'.
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  #10  
Old January 11, 2010, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasif
All the Christian Arabs word use the word "Allah" to refer to God.

Allah = Al-Ilah = The Creator = God (capital God in english refers one Creator).

Allah is just a reference to imply that you are talking about the Creator, the God. God doesn't have a name like you and me; and Allah is not His name.
The attributes of Allah can also be used to refer to his name, since no other entity in existance possess these attributes described in the Quran and Sunnah. The word "God" can have a plural, masculine or feminine form in the English language: such as: God,Goddess, Gods...but the arabic word Allah has only a singular form: Allah, hence has no equal or comparison or worthy in worship!
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  #11  
Old January 11, 2010, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdulMotin
Based on the debate, Allah and God are 2 different meanings, in the Muslim point of view Allah refers to the one and only God/creator of the universe, if Christians use the word "Allah" what will they be referring to? Christians believe in the trinity, the father the ghost the holy son, we have to understand that if the Christians use the word Allah then they are not specifically referring to "Allah" but could be Jesus, that is why it has caused much concern.
When christians refer to Jesus, they use the word "Jesus". When they use the word God they refer to Allah.

Secondly, Christian's belief regarding Jesus and Allah though strongly contradicts Islams view, is nothing new. What difference does using the word Allah make? Allah is the Arabic word for "God" and switching from "God" to "Allah" or the other way around makes no difference.

Its the worst lamest excuse if it counts as one in first place. If you want to fire-bomb people for simply being Christians that's one thing (outrageous and unacceptable none the less), but fire-bombing over vocab is just pure stupid.
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  #12  
Old January 11, 2010, 08:27 AM
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The Muslims and Christians have the same concept of God that there is one and only God who created the universe however we must look further to what we believe in. Muslims prefer to call God "Allah" meaning one true God in Arabic, and we do not call him "God" because it can mean many different things. Muslims attribute Allah with 99 names, but do the Christians believe that? No. We also believe Allah is unique, the sole creator of the universe and is not in need of any partners. The majority of Christians (except Unitarians) believe God revealed himself as 1 god in 3 persons, the son of God being Jesus, meaning he had become a human being. The trinity is an important belief for the Christians, because they see Jesus Christ as their salvation. Muslims believe Allah is not in need of anyone, therefore the Christians do not believe in the God (Allah) in Islam, and the Muslims do not believe in the God in Christianity.
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  #13  
Old January 11, 2010, 10:51 AM
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This is as silly as it gets. Instead of using this as a dawa tool, they are using it as a repel. Moronic to the highest degree.

Yes, Christian Arabs do call their Ilah as "Allah". It has been this way before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came. The problem for Muslims is no tolerance level. That will ultimately bring on their Ilah's wrath. May Allah save us all from that and give us patience and tolerance.
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  #14  
Old January 11, 2010, 01:03 PM
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so calling god as Allah muslims will turn in to chirstans? but what about the other way? i mean chirstans are reading Allah instead of god and they are more danger!!! of converting... I don't understand this... and where does it say some one boombed them from a plane?
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Old January 11, 2010, 01:50 PM
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Although I agree that there is prodigious (GRE word) difference between the word Allah and God, I say that Christians using the word Allah by any means do not make this heinous attack tenable.

Sheikh Adel Al Kalbani, the first ever black imam to lead prayer in Masjid Al-Haram (the grand mosque) once in a TV interview was asked about his position about such suicide bombings that are now a days often carried out in the name of Islam in many parts of the world. The scholar said that he didn't know the opinion of other scholars regarding this issue, but he said that based on the edict that he deduced from his knowledge, he can only rule such attackers as comitting crime against themselves and also against humanity. He said he felt that such attackers will not attain the honor martyrdom, rather it is vary likely that they will recieve the punishement for suicide, and the punishment for suicide in the hereafter according to Islam is eternal.

Below is the hadith that talks about the punishement of suicide:

Quote:
Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever throws himself down from a mountain and kills himself will be in the Fire of Hell, throwing himself down therein for ever and ever. Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. Whoever kills himself with a piece of iron, that piece of iron will be in his hand and he will be stabbing himself in the stomach with it in the Fire of Hell, for ever and ever.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim, 109.

It was narrated from Thaabit ibn al-Dahhaak (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever kills himself with something in this world will be punished with it on the Day of Resurrection.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5700; Muslim, 110.

It was narrated that Jundub ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Among those who came before you there was a man who was wounded and he panicked, so he took a knife and cut his hand with it, and the blood did not stop flowing until he died. Allaah said: ‘My slave hastened to bring about his demise; I have forbidden Paradise to him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3276; Muslim, 113.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) refrained from offering the funeral prayer for one who had committed suicide, as a punishment to him and so as to deter others from doing what he had done. But he gave the people permission to offer the funeral prayer for him, so it is Sunnah for the people of knowledge and virtue not to offer the funeral prayer for one who has committed suicide, following the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
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Old January 11, 2010, 02:17 PM
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Shardul bhai,

What's the ruling on going into a battle that is "certain suicide?"
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Old January 11, 2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
The attributes of Allah can also be used to refer to his name, since no other entity in existance possess these attributes described in the Quran and Sunnah. The word "God" can have a plural, masculine or feminine form in the English language: such as: God,Goddess, Gods...but the arabic word Allah has only a singular form: Allah, hence has no equal or comparison or worthy in worship!
"gods" and "goddess" are always written with lower case. Capital God refers to one God; which doesn't have gender or plural form.

If you speak to general western public in English and use Allah, more often they will get wrong idea on exactly who are you referring to. It might even result in derogatory image of God in other person. It is always better to use the language specific word for God.

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Old January 11, 2010, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Shardul bhai,

What's the ruling on going into a battle that is "certain suicide?"
I myself was interested to know what scholars think on this issue. For fatwa related issue, I frequently visit islam.qa, where Sheikh Salih Al Munajjid issues the fatwa. There I couldn't find anything about it, and I discovered that the scholar remains silent when it comes to such issues.

I will continue keep looking for though.
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Old January 11, 2010, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BD-Shardul
I myself was interested to know what scholars think on this issue. For fatwa related issue, I frequently visit islam.qa, where Sheikh Salih Al Munajjid issues the fatwa. There I couldn't find anything about it, and I discovered that the scholar remains silent when it comes to such issues.

I will continue keep looking for though.
Thank you.

On topic,

What an ignorant bunch of douches.
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Old January 13, 2010, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdulMotin
The Muslims and Christians have the same concept of God that there is one and only God who created the universe however we must look further to what we believe in. Muslims prefer to call God "Allah" meaning one true God in Arabic, and we do not call him "God" because it can mean many different things. Muslims attribute Allah with 99 names, but do the Christians believe that? No. We also believe Allah is unique, the sole creator of the universe and is not in need of any partners. The majority of Christians (except Unitarians) believe God revealed himself as 1 god in 3 persons, the son of God being Jesus, meaning he had become a human being. The trinity is an important belief for the Christians, because they see Jesus Christ as their salvation. Muslims believe Allah is not in need of anyone, therefore the Christians do not believe in the God (Allah) in Islam, and the Muslims do not believe in the God in Christianity.
"God" is English word and most muslim countries are not English speaking. The religion originated in Saudi Arabia and now spread to every corner of the Earth. Hence most things are in Arabic such as Quran, Islamic names, and of course the word we use for God which is "Allah".

The word "Allah" is widely used by Christians in Middle-East without any problem. As for how Christians see God in 3 forms, that's how they perceive Allah to be. Maybe its different from ours but end of the day they are referring to the same God with different perception, NOT different Gods.

There is a big difference between the two.
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  #21  
Old January 13, 2010, 12:32 PM
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A group of people that can fire-bomb a church(s) over such issues, are the true faces of evil! These so called moslems who do this kind of heinous, shameless act of cowardry upon another human being and their faith are indeed the saitan's true followers! You have nothing but hate in your hearts, yuo are indeed the worst kind, the kind that does not belong with the believers! These evil terrorists will be rejected and punished for eternity by Allah, Inshallah!
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Old January 18, 2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien
"God" is English word and most muslim countries are not English speaking. The religion originated in Saudi Arabia and now spread to every corner of the Earth. Hence most things are in Arabic such as Quran, Islamic names, and of course the word we use for God which is "Allah".

The word "Allah" is widely used by Christians in Middle-East without any problem. As for how Christians see God in 3 forms, that's how they perceive Allah to be. Maybe its different from ours but end of the day they are referring to the same God with different perception, NOT different Gods.

There is a big difference between the two.
Read this article here please for more information about the differences of Allah in Islam towards other religions
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Old January 20, 2010, 10:25 AM
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Logically Emotional: Malaysia and Egypt Acts of Terrorism



Quote:
Last year, Marwa al-Sherbini was given the title of the Martyr of Hijab after she was murdered in a courtroom in Germany, and there were many demonstrations in the Muslim world asking for revenge and justice – rightfully so. On 27th December 2008, Israel began a wave of air strikes on the Gaza Strip in Palestine and the whole Muslim Ummah from the West to the East objected – rightfully so. But when other Muslims act in an illegal, disgraceful, and shameful manner, those same Muslim demonstrators are often no where to be found.
Recently, six Coptic Christians were murdered in a drive-by shooting outside a church in Upper Egypt and a total of five churches were bombed in Malaysia by some Muslims.

The story behind the Egyptian crime according to AlJazeera has to do with a Muslim girl who was allegedly raped in November by a Christian man that has now been arrested and is awaiting trial. The relatives of this Muslim girl did not want to wait for the trial proceedings and decided to take matters in to their own hands. A car pulled up and gunfire was sprayed into the worshipers as they were leaving the church after a midnight mass on Coptic Christmas Eve.. This shooting resulted in the murder of six humans lives, none of whom had anything to do with the initial case of alleged rape.
It is ironic to see the contradictory reactions by Muslims to the inhumane acts perpetrated upon innocent Iraqis at Abu Ghraib in comparison to the reaction of Muslims to the killings of the innocent Coptic Christians as they left their house of worship.
The story in Malaysia is even more outrageous. A Malaysian court overturned a government ban on the use of the word “Allah” by Catholics in their literature. This decision will allow the Roman Catholic newsletter, the Herald, to use the term “Allah” to refer to the All Mighty in the Malay language. In response to that, Muslim attackers threw Molotov bombs at 5 different churches around the country – according to AlJazeera.
Question: Why in the world would there be a ban on the use of the word “Allah” in the first place? Didn’t the non-Muslims of Arabia before, during, and even after the Prophet’s time use this term? Also, how is it disgraceful for Christians to use this term? As a matter of fact, Arab Christians have been referring to God as Allah for decades now with the silent approval from the most rigid and conservative scholars in that region.
The criminals that carried out these acts claim to do so in order to uphold the integrity of Islam but Allah mentions in Surah Al-Hajj, verse 40:

وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُمْ بِبَعْضٍ لَهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيرًا
….for had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure would surely have been pulled down…
The main point of this article is not to explain the Islamic stance on this issue, rather I am trying to understand why Muslims do not react in the same manner when the perpetrators of an injustice are other Muslims?
This is a question that makes my head spin in an attempt to rationalize why and how is it that some Muslims justify the blood of innocent people and claim to have a religious sanction for such actions. In the past, when Muslim armies fought against non-Muslims in legitimate wars, they were clearly ordered to not be treacherous, nor breach covenants, nor kill either a child or a woman or an old man or a monk in a monastery, nor burn, cut, or pull down any trees.
This post may offend some Muslims, but that’s okay. It is time for us to stop being biased towards Muslims regardless of whether they are right or wrong. Islam orders us to speak out against injustice even when that injustice is committed by Muslims. Allah says in Al-Maeda, verse 8: O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is well acquainted with what you do.
The Prophet narrated that Allah said: “O my slaves, I have forbidden injustice for myself and forbade it also for you. So avoid being unjust to one another.” (Saheeh Muslim)
I am reminded of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in his Letter From a Birmingham Jail when he said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
Finally, I cannot help but wonder, if the Muslims of today were to be the world’s superpower, would we really be fair to the minorities? Would we regard non-Muslim minorities as legitimate minorities that have rights upon the Muslim majority?
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  #24  
Old January 21, 2010, 01:27 AM
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Shardul, I couldnt decipher your points from those of the article's.

but anyways, they are all very valid points which have made me hoarse from repeating...


Many Muslim have this belief that a non-Muslim oppressing a Muslim is much worse than a Muslim oppressing another Muslim or a non-Muslim.
The attitude till today of Pakistan's actions in 71 are testament to that.

I keep asking such muppets to state one ayat/hadith which shows that oppression by Muslims is acceptable, and they cant. Yet they will revert to the same old "its their internal matter" or "they were just reacting" in such cases.

I was appalled to see Muslims criticising other Muslims who condemn killing nom-Muslim, labelling them as "bowing down to Mushrikeen" and what not..

Last edited by Banglatiger84; January 21, 2010 at 01:34 AM..
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Old January 21, 2010, 05:25 AM
sharew91 sharew91 is offline
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Join Date: January 21, 2010
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Default Bangladesh as a muslim country

Why you become speechless. Every country has its pros and cons. They are going to explore the Muslims and Islam in the negative aspect. We have to prove them wrong and should be united.
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