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  #1  
Old March 21, 2010, 12:56 PM
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AsifTheManRahman AsifTheManRahman is offline
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Default Your definition of a batsman

Now I've seen people on this forum talk about their love for Mohammad Ashraful, some for Aftab Ahmed, others for Tamim Iqbal, Shahriar Nafees, Alok Kapali, Faisal Hossain, Imrul Kayes, Mahmudullah Riyad and so on. Some choices I agree with, others I think are gonjika induced. I'm really interested to see what others' definitions of a proper batsman are. This is for Tests and ODIs as clearly T20s are much different and a discussion there might fuel a debate over whether that format should even exist, which is not the intention of this thread.

I'll go first. I'm a huge sucker for the straight bat. Nothing delights me more than watching a batsman play it all along the ground in the V, head down on top of the ball and elbow straight up when it's pitched up in the slot, or punch it off the back foot when presented with something a tad short.

I'm also a sucker for solid defense and I mean both in terms of technique and approach. If you can't defend, you can't attack. Someone who gets behind the short ball or opaques the gap between bat and pad on the front foot defense really turns me on. Someone who takes time to get his eye in, settle down, work the ball around with ones and twos and goes for the kill later on makes it to my XI any day. A bit old fashioned, yes, but even today, it works for many Greats.

Against the spinner, I love it when someone uses the feet to curb the spin and is confident in doing so. The sweep is also a mighty weapon and if you can sweep often with the spin (or even against it occasionally if you have the confidence), you'll make a lot of runs against the slow bowlers.

Also, if you can play the ball late, I will take a picture of that and make a poster out of it.

These are some of the reasons I've liked Mushfiqur Rahim ever since I first saw him in a First Class game when he was 16. Over the years, I've always thought he could become a mainstay in the national team when many people were going after the likes of Nazimuddin, Aftab, etc. Even when he wasn't scoring, I got the feeling it was because he wasn't being given a long enough run in the middle order. To me he was always in the top two or three we had since he started his career and to be frank I always thought people who dissed him when he wasn't scoring at #8/#9 didn't understand the game much. But that's just me.

Same with Nayeem. I haven't seen him bat as much as many others (because thanks to the management he comes in at #8), but from whatever I had seen, I kind of got the feeling - and pretty early on in his international career too if I may add - that he would score lots of runs if allowed to bat where he has all his life, in the middle order. So far so good.

With MaRi, again, I liked him the first time he came into the scene for his ability to rotate and keep the score board flipping near the end of a one day inning even without too many boundaries. He had his glitches in technique but look at his defense now. He's obviously worked on it and I hope he continues to do so.

Now these are all intelligent cricketers who rely on cunning rather than power hitting to get the job done. Having said that, I am not totally averse to big hitting. In fact clean hits sustained over long periods of time are always welcome. That is why I like Tamim Iqbal. He still needs to master the art of clean hitting as we don't want him to live as dangerously as he sometimes does, but IMO, clean hitting != mindless slogging, which puts Tamim ahead of some of the non-batsmen that have played for us. If someone can hit for a hundred and fifty deliveries, all power to him.

These four are my first-choice batsmen in the Bangladesh XI. Shakib comes in right behind, but that's expected as he's an all rounder. Not that Nayeem and MaRi aren't, but I consider them to be better batsmen than bowlers, which isn't exactly rocket science.

Major turn-offs for me:

1. Playing across the line
2. Having no clue against the short ball.
3. Using the bat like a sword
4. Being unable to stick around for long enough (doesn't matter how much you make, because you will never make enough to be useful to the team)
5. Being incapable of defending.

If you're doing some or all of the above, it doesn't matter how good you look when you play a cover drive, if I were the selector I would not pick you. This is why I never liked guys who people think have a lot of so-called potential but never had anything to back it up, because they obviously got the definition of potential all wrong.

Now I'll admit one guy who fooled me (and he's probably fooled everyone in the world), is Mohammad Ashraful. Once upon a time I thought he had all the goods to succeed, but he has only himself to blame for not being able to.

So why do you like Mr. X, Y or Z? Let's iron out our differences.
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  #2  
Old March 21, 2010, 01:26 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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ATMR's list is thus (in order, correct me if i'm wrong):

Rahim > Naeem > Riyad
Tamim (precise rank unclear)

i'd pretty much agree with everything you said, including the ash part, which is pretty spot on.

my list is:

Mushfique (best temperement, best technique, solid stroke making, flair factor (FF) neutral)
Tamim (best stroke maker, solid technique, good temperament, FF +)
Naeem (best temperament tied with mushy, decent technique, decent stroke making, FF -)
Riyad (solid temperament, decent technique, average stroke maker, FF -)
Shakib (decent temperament, decent technique, solid stroke maker, FF +)
Junaid (solid temperament, average technique, average stroke maker, FF -)

The Bad List:

Imrul (average temperament, average technique, poor stroke maker, FF -)
Aftab (poor temperament, solid technique, decent stroke maker, FF +)
Ashraful (average temperament, poor technique, awesome stroke maker, FF +)

flair factor is a combination of media charm, the ability to look better than you are statistically, the inherent quality to shine on the biggest stages against the biggest names, that x-factor which makes or can make you a genuine match-winner, also requires a touch of arrogance and slight contempt for the bowler, even if he's Glenn Mcgrath or Wasim Akram or Shane Warne.
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  #3  
Old March 21, 2010, 01:28 PM
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AsifTheManRahman AsifTheManRahman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
ATMR's list is thus (in order, correct me if i'm wrong):

Rahim > Naeem > Riyad
Tamim (precise rank unclear)
I wouldn't rank them. They are all different and valuable to the team in their own ways.
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  #4  
Old March 21, 2010, 01:35 PM
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super article ! you just raised the bar for this thread.

I will agree with all of your post but add two points. cricket is at the end of the day a mental game. there have been many players with faulty techniques who have gone on to be very good, if not great players.

so I'll add two exceptions to that list, i.e even if the players excibit some of the symptoms in that list, they will be considered if :

a) the batsman is a fighter. he may have limited talent, faulty technique but doesn't give up. he backs himself to play well and overcomes his many shortcomings by sheer grit alone. he is a brave man, he is not cowed down. example - junaed
riyad also belongs to this group, not because he is not talented but because he is a fighter.
in my book fighter >> talented (unless you are tendulkar or lara)

b) the numbers speak for themselves. the batsman may have no technique, no defensive shots but he scores consistently. rare but we have one example, sehwag.
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  #5  
Old March 21, 2010, 01:37 PM
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Neel, agreed and agreed.
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  #6  
Old March 21, 2010, 01:37 PM
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I would have to agree with your assessment of Mushi and Tamim.

My definition of a batsman is someone who:

i) uses their feet well.
ii) plays along the ground.
iii) takes minimal risks lofting the ball
iv) paces their innings intuitively
v)plays the ball on merit not emotion or predetermination

The perfect batsman that comes to mind is Sachin. His 200 against south africa is a good example of how much control, poise and charismatic someone can be with the bat.

Franjly, tamim can do it if he plays with a little less flash and a bit more care.
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  #7  
Old March 21, 2010, 01:44 PM
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Minimum qualification
30+ average. In ODIs, accompanied with 70+ strike rate.

High quality batsman
Test: 40+ average, ODIs: 35 average, 90+ SR or 40+ average, 80+ SR
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  #8  
Old March 21, 2010, 01:54 PM
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Great spirited stuff Asif.

You know, I was fooled as well ( not the only one ) by the likes of Ash, Aftab, Alok and all those pretenders before these guys came aboard. They stood out at that time, not because they were great by any stretch of imagination, but because they gave a glimmer of hope for the future. Now, they are so past!
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Old March 21, 2010, 02:00 PM
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whatever Sachin Tendulkar does.
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  #10  
Old March 21, 2010, 02:18 PM
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Lol. My definition of a batsman-

Whoever scores good runs consistently, dont care how



[You cant beat that]
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  #11  
Old March 21, 2010, 02:20 PM
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My definition is even simpler Asif. A test batsman is one who can absorb pressure and then make hey whenever the opportunity is there. And he scores by having simple effective gameplans that he can amend on they fly if needed. TI on that front is still a WIP - you can get to him. Junaid, surprisingly, can be a Test batsman. Ash can be - when he has his demons in control (think to his last century against Lanka). Naeem I'm still waiting to be convinced - he inside edges too much when trying to drive. Mushy is definitely a proper batsman. Riyadh is turning out to be one too. Why won't NI get it turned around? He was looking so good against Lanka before those brain-fart outs.
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Old March 21, 2010, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer
Great spirited stuff Asif.

You know, I was fooled as well ( not the only one ) by the likes of Ash, Aftab, Alok and all those pretenders before these guys came aboard. They stood out at that time, not because they were great by any stretch of imagination, but because they gave a glimmer of hope for the future. Now, they are so past!
ash can still come back. if he does come back on performance he will be a monster of a player.
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  #13  
Old March 21, 2010, 02:26 PM
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Naeem will be move up the order soon like Mahmudullah

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  #14  
Old March 21, 2010, 02:27 PM
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someone who uses a bat to hit his wife when she goes to the movie theater with her male co-worker??

Asif bhai should be our selector, coach, batsmen and cheerleader. We would never lose a game.
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Old March 21, 2010, 02:31 PM
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Someone who bats.
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  #16  
Old March 21, 2010, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AsifTheManRahman
These four are my first-choice batsmen in the Bangladesh XI. Shakib comes in right behind, but that's expected as he's an all rounder. Not that Nayeem and MaRi aren't, but I consider them to be better batsmen than bowlers, which isn't exactly rocket science.
I agree with you for the most part except for:
1. Mushy's real test would be the upcoming away series in England. I want to see how he plays the rising balls on a bouncy pitch
2. I think Shakib plays the rising balls better; he does not play them away from the body. He and MaRi have the height advantage for playing pacers.
3. If we agree with you about Mushy why cannot he be the operner with Tamim for left-right combination, and then we find a second wicket-keeper in the team.
4. Aftab plays better than any quality pacer better then any other batters we have. Basher and Aftab perhaps have the best reflex and eye. He should be in for ODI because run rate in middle overs is important.
5. I like Juhurul's way of batting, perhaps his style will allow rotating of strikes and I will keep him in the pool.

Observations and opinions:
5. Our tail learns both technique and temperament better on the job, examples are Shafiul and Shahadat.
6. Let's promote Naeem and Riyad until we find a #3 from U-19's
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Old March 21, 2010, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haradhon
I agree with you for the most part except for:
1. Mushy's real test would be the upcoming away series in England. I want to see how he plays the rising balls on a bouncy pitch
Indeed, but England will be a test for all of our batsmen and guys with the right technique will be more likely to succeed. Mushy does have a first class century in England.

Quote:
4. Aftab plays better than any quality pacer better then any other batters we have.
Small sample size. We will talk once he starts to last longer than thirty deliveries.
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Old March 21, 2010, 03:42 PM
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Shardul's definition of batsmen:

A player who can occupy crease despite his technique and bat, bat and bat.

Example: Shivnaraine Chanderpaul, Hasim Amla (my bearded hero).
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Old March 21, 2010, 04:04 PM
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IMO anyone that can hold a bat can be considered a batsman. we should be asking what is the definition of a good batsman.
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Old March 21, 2010, 04:13 PM
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One word: Sehwag
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  #21  
Old March 21, 2010, 04:21 PM
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It's simple....
Who can stick around the wicket for a long time and scores good amount of runs.
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Old March 21, 2010, 04:46 PM
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Very well written.
Pleasant to watch
1: Ashraful's hook and pull
2: Tamim's sweep
3: Naeem's solid Defence
4: Mahmudullah's cover drive
5: Mushfiq's down the wicket straight over the bowler's head sixes

Biggest Turn off
1: Imrul Kayes dealing with short balls
2: Giving catches straight to the fielder
3: Run outs in test matches
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  #23  
Old March 21, 2010, 05:07 PM
alibangali alibangali is offline
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A sporting athlete goes through good and bad patches. The best are those who tough it out when things are not going well for them, those who can adapt their game when the general sport is changing, those who can adjust their style when their bodies are changing. As a batsmen players like Tendulker, Dhoni, Khallis and Sangakkara spring to mind. To me a great batsmen is one who bats to the situation and most importantly gets the job done. This can be blocking balls to earn a draw, hitting boundries to get the imposible win or the one who sits back and supports the other batsmen who is playing well so that they dont leave them short. In essence a great batsmen is one who has many dimensions and one who uses his god given talent by working hard and applying themself to the task at hand.
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Old March 21, 2010, 05:13 PM
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I dont think Imrul's quite as bad as a lot of you make it seem. Granted, he's not the best Test batsman and should be nowhere near the team when we play test matches, but he's surprisingly effective as an ODI specialist, with an average of almost 40 after being brought back into the side (its worth noting that none of his games have been against weak sides). Even if you include his rather unimpressive first stint as an international batsman in the latter part of 2008 (after which he was dropped for a year), his average is still above 30 and among the highest in the team. Its a completely different story for Tests, though...

He's pretty much the anti-Junaid, who's absolutely pathetic as an ODI batsman, but seems to hold up pretty well in Tests. Junaid needs to be our opening option in tests, and we need to find a new #3. In ODI's, I quite liked the lineup that was put forth in the final ODI (still not convinced about Aftab though)...
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Old March 21, 2010, 05:25 PM
alibangali alibangali is offline
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Tamim, Riyadh, Mushy and to certain extent Naeem are going through a good patch.
I just hope people dont stop supporting these players when they will eventualy hit a lean patch.
These batsmen are the new generation while players like ash and aftab the previous generation. Fans should not forget that players like ash and aftab did their bit for bangladesh cricket. They started the hope that bangladesh can get wins against other test playing nations. The new generation needs to take the hope and make it more consistent event on the calender. So far they all have had indvidual successes in 2010 however it has not come to a team success. Inshallah the 2nd test against england will be the first of many team successes.
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