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  #26  
Old May 22, 2010, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
Let me guess...

blah will get a deaththreat and he will take revenge by drawing nafi.
What did you think of my thread, your response was the one I most anticipated.
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  #27  
Old May 22, 2010, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
Your post implied to me I was being ignorant. I didnt like it, thats all.
Well, I wasn't wrong. You were ignorant about evolution and you confused it with Abiogenesis. Pointing out to someone that he might not understand something is rude?

It would be ignorant of me to claim to understand something I don't. Trust me, there are a lot of (very obvious) things I don't understand; while I try to learn more everyday, it would be ignorant of me to claim to know something I don't or get offended if someone points out my ignorance.

Maybe in a language that will help you understand.
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  #28  
Old May 22, 2010, 10:46 AM
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Okay dude relax, I get it. I dont even study Biology okay, so my knowledge isnt solid in that area.
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Last edited by Nafi; May 22, 2010 at 10:57 AM..
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  #29  
Old May 22, 2010, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
WHat about Adam and Eve
I just found this verse, not really miraculous and not really about evolution of species, because the verse is explaining sperm to human.

Quran said that God is able to recreate humans from semen in forms that they are unable to envisage:

(Quran 56.58-62) Do you see your own semen? Do you create it or Do We [Allah] create it? We decreed the death among you and nobody beat Us to alter your form and raise you in forms that you do not perceive. And you have figured out your first form then why do you not take heed?

Regardless there is nothing in the Quran that tells us whether Adam & Eve looked like us or looked like homo sapiens.
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  #30  
Old May 22, 2010, 05:45 PM
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Default Surah Alaq (96) and Neuroscience

Let him beware! If he desist not, We will drag him by the forelock, A lying, sinful forelock!
(Yusuf Ali translation of Quran 96:15 & 16)

كَلَّا لَئِن لَّمْ يَنتَهِ لَنَسْفَعًا بِالنَّاصِيَةِ
نَاصِيَةٍ كَاذِبَةٍ خَاطِئَةٍ

this verse makes little sense asides from a poetic or perhaps a symbolic sense, unless one realizes that "lying," "sinning," and other things which involve abstract thinking, judgement, or other mental capacities occur in the "forelock" or the Prefrontal Area of the brain, which is located as the anterior-most part of the cerebrum.

just another interesting thing to ponder about as stated numerous times in the Quran:

Verily, in all this there are messages indeed for people who think!
(Muhammad Asad translation of Quran 13:3)

إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ
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  #31  
Old May 22, 2010, 05:49 PM
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Also if anyone can find how close the multiplier of 700 is to an exponential curve, would be greatly appreciated.

The likeness of those who spend their wealth in Allah's way is as the likeness of a grain which groweth seven ears, in every ear a hundred grains. Allah giveth increase manifold to whom He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing. 2/261
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  #32  
Old May 22, 2010, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi

Quran said that God is able to recreate humans from semen in forms that they are unable to envisage:

(Quran 56.58-62) Do you see your own semen? Do you create it or Do We [Allah] create it? We decreed the death among you and nobody beat Us to alter your form and raise you in forms that you do not perceive. And you have figured out your first form then why do you not take heed?
My english fails me here. I have no idea what this overgeneralize allegory is supposed to mean. It could be literally interpreted in to 100s of meanings. I am guessing here, that the passage is trying to say that process of making a human baby (from sperm) is so complicated that we cannot possible "envisage" it.

Assuming that is exactly what the passage is saying...

There is nothing unimaginable about the human reproduction system. From in-vitro fertilisation (test-tube baby) to Designer baby, humans can help give birth to parents who could not get pregnant, to the extend that we can have custom-made babies. Meaning, we can choose to have babies to have certain color of hair, or no hair, certain color of eyes, certain height, increase IQ, change personality, gender, skin color, remove genetic disease. There is nothing technologically limiting us from doing this, which only shows how well we understand the process of reproduction of human from sperm (which is only half the equation, by the way). Whats limiting us from making this custom made human being, are ethical concerns raised by society and moral concerns raised religious zealots (mostly Christians).

See also: Self-replicating Synthetic life created (by humans) few days ago.
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  #33  
Old May 22, 2010, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
according to the link, they just inserted a complete genome into a bacterium, which isn't all that revolutionary considering that whole proteins have come from plasmids integrated into bacteria before. i think thats how insulin is derived since the older method of using horse insulin can yield systemic hypersensitivity reactions in humans.

the misleading title of your link is akin to asserting that scientists have created wholly independent human beings when in reality all they did was give someone a blood transfusion.

interestingly, the quran gives a cryptic reference to mankind's limit of technology and scientific advancement.
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  #34  
Old May 23, 2010, 12:46 AM
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according to the link, they just inserted a complete genome into a bacterium, which isn't all that revolutionary considering that whole proteins have come from plasmids integrated into bacteria before. i think thats how insulin is derived since the older method of using horse insulin can yield systemic hypersensitivity reactions in humans.
No.

The DNA it self has synthetically created with the help of chemicals and the DNA information that has been rewritten from scratch with the help of computers. What you are probably referring to is manipulating existing "natural" DNA. There is nothing natural about the DNA itself in this cell.

How can you actually read that article (assuming you read it), and still come around and spread such blatant misinformation?

The article clearly and concisely tell you what was done.

Quote:
the misleading title of your link is akin to asserting that scientists have created wholly independent human beings when in reality all they did was give someone a blood transfusion.
No. This is akin to you arguing about something you don't understand (or willfully ignore). For instance, making a facile comparison to insulin production or blood transfusion.
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  #35  
Old May 23, 2010, 06:15 AM
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Thats not really that groundbreaking, instead of a part of a DNA is spliced into a plasmid, its a whole DNA itself. Its exactly akin to production of human insulin, except the original DNA is totally synthetic and more complete.

The amazing part is the creation of synthetic DNA.
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  #36  
Old May 23, 2010, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
What did you think of my thread, your response was the one I most anticipated.
At one stage of my life, I was really into this sort of stuffs. But upon learning that guys like Anaxamender, Protagoras and earlier Greek philosophers equally saying things like life got created from water I had to dismiss such so called "science" as nothing more than mere broad generalizations akin to the ones found in Nostradamus's writing...

You sure don't count Nostradamus's words as divine creation, do you? =)
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  #37  
Old May 23, 2010, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi

The amazing part is the creation of synthetic DNA.

Well.... yes!

It is quite amazing. DNA is the life line of your body. DNA is the software instructions that gives life to the living container (human body or cells or bacteria). A computer hardware is absolutely useless without a software, you can not do anything with a computer processor if there is no software instructions telling it what to do.

DNA is life (not to be confused with consciousness). In this case, DNA has been created synthetically from scratch and was able to Reboot (or give life) to an empty cell.
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  #38  
Old May 23, 2010, 10:19 AM
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sprry for the OT post fellows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
At one stage of my life, I was really into this sort of stuffs. But upon learning that guys like Anaxamender, Protagoras and earlier Greek philosophers equally saying things like life got created from water I had to dismiss such so called "science" as nothing more than mere broad generalizations akin to the ones found in Nostradamus's writing...

You sure don't count Nostradamus's words as divine creation, do you? =)
you might be interested in http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/201...-debunked.html
the author is a serious scholar hailing from same region.
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  #39  
Old May 23, 2010, 09:11 PM
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I echo Zeeshan's thoughts.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (iPhone)
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  #40  
Old May 23, 2010, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
No.

The DNA it self has synthetically created with the help of chemicals and the DNA information that has been rewritten from scratch with the help of computers. What you are probably referring to is manipulating existing "natural" DNA. There is nothing natural about the DNA itself in this cell.

How can you actually read that article (assuming you read it), and still come around and spread such blatant misinformation?

The article clearly and concisely tell you what was done.



No. This is akin to you arguing about something you don't understand (or willfully ignore). For instance, making a facile comparison to insulin production or blood transfusion.
you're right i didn't read the whole thing.

but can they create an entire cell from "scratch"? as in replete with membranes and cell wall?
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  #41  
Old May 24, 2010, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
you're right i didn't read the whole thing.

but can they create an entire cell from "scratch"? as in replete with membranes and cell wall?
Using nothing but amino acids.
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  #42  
Old May 24, 2010, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
you're right i didn't read the whole thing.

but can they create an entire cell from "scratch"? as in replete with membranes and cell wall?
I think it is somewhere down the line in future goals to combine a synthetic cell membrane with a synthetic gnome. The achievement of making a cell membrane from scratch itself is academic (of course it is difficult and complex, but it can be done), the question is not whether you can do it, the question is why would you want to do it. Its cheaper and more useful to write DNA from scratch than making the membranes itself, which will cost 10s of millions and years of work with no clear benefits (if any at all).

However, a separate group of scientist have created Artificial Cell in the 1960s. They are not as fully functional as a natural cell membrane, but it just goes on to show that it can be done seperately and will be eventually combined. Its a matter of time and funding. Investors don't want to fund something that doesn't have any clear benefits, synthetic gnome has clear wide-spread applications and benefits, synthetic cell-membrane doesn't have any clear short-term benefits as far as we know.

The goal of this achievement was not to answer a philosophical question of whether you can create synthetic life, which we now know that we can; the goal was to create synthetic custom gnome to find a solution of medical and energy needs. The fact that synthetic life was created is just a consequence of broader goal.

If you want to read a more balanced view about this Synthetic Life, Nature magazine asked 8 synthetic-biology experts, some of them don't think it is even "Synthetic life" while others have shown cautious optimism. You can read it here (3 pages).

I don't have a problem with sharing views of people more qualified than me, even if they disagree with me, because thats how science works. You just don't blindly follow someone to reinforce your personal views. You question everything and everyone and draw rational conclusion from wide ranging views.

Edit: More recent work on complex synthetic cell membrane
Patent for Synthetic cell membranes based on Amino acids (1997)

Last edited by Blah; May 24, 2010 at 11:48 AM..
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  #43  
Old May 24, 2010, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi

(Quran 56.58-62) Do you see your own semen? Do you create it or Do We [Allah] create it? We decreed the death among you and nobody beat Us to alter your form and raise you in forms that you do not perceive. And you have figured out your first form then why do you not take heed?

Regardless there is nothing in the Quran that tells us whether Adam & Eve looked like us or looked like homo sapiens.
I find the usage of "we" the most interesting. A decade ago I read a book which hypothesized that the repeated reference of "We" against "I" indicated that the "GOD" referenced in the old and the new Testament where actually referring to an alien race rather than a GOD. My Christian friend indicated that the "We" referenced the holy "Trinity" and hence the use of a "We".

I am surprised that Quran too has the "We" instead of an "I" as the Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity nor do they believe in plurality ?
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  #44  
Old May 25, 2010, 01:10 AM
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Kinda off-topic and as myself, has Blah been using a medium to channel the late-lamented Arnab?
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  #45  
Old May 25, 2010, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by RazabQ
Kinda off-topic and as myself, has Blah been using a medium to channel the late-lamented Arnab?
Well you have the power and energy to invest all your mod spy tools at disposals to find out if the real case.... Although I doubt it and I consider myself pretty adept at profiling people's traits and signatures. =)
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  #46  
Old May 25, 2010, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bharat
I find the usage of "we" the most interesting. A decade ago I read a book which hypothesized that the repeated reference of "We" against "I" indicated that the "GOD" referenced in the old and the new Testament where actually referring to an alien race rather than a GOD. My Christian friend indicated that the "We" referenced the holy "Trinity" and hence the use of a "We".

I am surprised that Quran too has the "We" instead of an "I" as the Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity nor do they believe in plurality ?
Trinity in Islam no way! I would talk about my views on Trinity, but I dont want to offend any Contemporary Christian.

'We' is just the plurality of God and HIS power, a common literary device used by Kings as well to signify their power. And also pantheism is not conrtradictory to Islam, since the whole universe was created from God's energy from 'nothing', as mass doesnt exist, we are all just fluctuations of energy.

On a sidenote, aliens definitely exist in Islam. Jinns for one thing are, but they reside outside this dimension, however there are conventional aliens in this dimension-universe, but Quran doesnt specify if they are intelligent or not

Then there is Yajujj and Majujj, but many theoririse that they were tribes around Alexandria The Great Time. Again it is arguable
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  #47  
Old May 25, 2010, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
Kinda off-topic and as myself, has Blah been using a medium to channel the late-lamented Arnab?
Go on...

I am curious about this Arnab person now.
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  #48  
Old May 25, 2010, 11:33 AM
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Blah do a search on FC for atheism science islam and Arnab. You'll find plenty
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  #49  
Old May 25, 2010, 11:34 AM
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@Gopal - I didn't accuse Blah of being Arnab, merely of channeling him
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  #50  
Old May 25, 2010, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazabQ
Blah do a search on FC for atheism science islam and Arnab. You'll find plenty
Ah. Just read few posts on this thread of his. Interesting fellow. I am sure there are other atheists in this forum who don't want to speak out because they don't want to insult religious people's feelings. Or they are discouraged to speak their mind.

I find it quite unfortunate, because there is no way to talk about religion from a non-believer's point of view without coming out as someone who is being insensitive to religious belief. The whole premise of being a non-believer is being out of favor with religion, in one way or another.

As a non-believer I could argue that talking about religion is insulting to my intelligence as a human being, but that wouldn't stop anyone from talking in favor of religion or trying to make an absolute retarded argument to co-relate Quran (or any religion) with science.
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