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  #101  
Old June 13, 2010, 10:59 AM
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So....who won?
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  #102  
Old June 13, 2010, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
So....who won?
Its not even a debate I care about, the only thing I care about is the divinity of the Quran.
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  #103  
Old June 13, 2010, 11:11 AM
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  #104  
Old June 13, 2010, 11:16 AM
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@Nafi only

Okay good enough.....do you then agree that there are verses in Quran that contains reference to science that wouldn't be accessed in times of the revelation ie when prophet Mohammad lived? And since we are only discovering these theories like the wormhole and relativity one you mentioned in this current century it would never be possible to find about them in the times of Prophet and thus is a clear evidence of the authenticity of Quran, right?
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  #105  
Old June 13, 2010, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
Well obviously theyre doing it wrong, the way I see it, none of these criminal people follow an interpretation of Islam that I believe is correct.
Ask a suicide bomber and he will tell you his interpretation of islam is right and yours is wrong. Ask Hindu fundamentalist about his actions and he will tell you his interpretation is the right one.

This is not personal to you or islam. This is in general to religion, which is why I am taking the extra effort to point out "religion" and "their interpretation" as opposed to "Islam" and "all you muslims".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi

Find a statistics on Quranists. And tell me what you find..I doubt you will find anything because its not even a sect.

So regardless all these statistics are meaningless, because they are so many factors involved, your use of Scandinavian countries just shouts out the clear biased/construed argument you have. Of course the crime rates are low there, those countries have the best economies and democracies, of course religious immigrants will have a higher crime level....They're poor!!!!!!
I have no bias towards islam, I gave examples related to islam (I also gave 3 other examples that was not specific to islam), because it was relevant in to the discussion. They are poor because they are religious (there is a direct correlation, as I gave you examples), yet their religious morality didn't stop them from committing crimes


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You always say communism doesnt count, but it does, how much oppression did atheist communism enforce, millions and millions.
I say communism doesn't count because they are being forced in to non-belief system. Unlike religion, where you are being forced in to follow whatever religion your family has, non-belief is a conscious choice. You cannot enforce it, you have to understand and evaluate the reasons why you are making this conscious choice of non-belief.


(personal story: When I have kids. I will not force them to be a non-believer, when s/he is old enough to make independent choice, I will introduce him/her to his/her choices and let him/her make the choice. Perhaps my point of view will be bias, but s/he will have no pressure from me)

Quote:
With each ridiculous post you make to push your anti-religion agenda, Im really losing respect of you.
Of course I have non-belief agenda, the same way you are pushing your pro-religion agenda by opening up threads in related to religion.

I am not looking for your respect. If I did, I would use my real name and share all my amazing personal accomplishments. However, I am interested in interesting discussion on topics like religion and science.



Quote:
It is Atheism not theism which is odd

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...od-is-odd.html

What does this has to do with anything? Is it asking for introspection for atheists? That sounds like a great idea.
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  #106  
Old June 13, 2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
@Nafi only

Okay good enough.....do you then agree that there are verses in Quran that contains references to science that wouldn't be accessed in times of the revelation ie when prophet Mohammad lived? And since we are only discovering these theories like the wormhole and relativity one you mentioned in this current century it would never be possible to find about them in the times of Prophet and thus is a clear evidence of the authenticity of Quran, right?
Firstly I should change the name to the original Maeraj, I dont want to possibly mislead, Im not very sure of the arabic word means entirely, a common translation, is 'way of ascent'. I hope to study Classical Arabic later in my life, to better my understanding.

Secondly, I'd like to say, you could never prove anything outright, I think Quran was divinely inspired just enough to leave doubt. No I will not say these verses that are ahead of their time in their knowledge, is proof, evidence..yes, but not proof.

The respectful atheist position would be that through chance, Muhammed was an amazing extraordinary man that had produced something as miraculous as the Quran. However for them it just stops at that, they say there was no God involved, it was just a product of rare human genius. There is no sceintific test for validity, through conventional scientific methods

The Silly atheist will say, oh this is just nonsense, you are cherry picking verses from an ordinary dust old book, I could do the same with works of Shakespeare and come up with similar material....and the fact is, no they cant, they probably have tried, and realised how feasible it is.

So to answer your question, there is nothing outright, you need some faith, this isnt a scientific experiment in a lab. This is a philosophical topic, where you take in the extra-ordinary, and whether it leads you to belief or not is up to you, but the clear message is to reflect upon it.

However if you just look at the numbers involved in astrophysics, the chances of a universe forming at all, habitable for life, is just so small, they actually becoming insignificant, there's a reason why Einstein believed in a Spinoza God, and even Hawkins believes in a Creator. A God that had created a universe in one moment, and from all events that proceed as a result of that creation. Its how Shaam (the heart biologist) talked about the pool table. The Quran follows the idea of the deterministic universe, very strongly.

At the end of the day, yes there are huge amounts of evidence for Quran being authentic, the mathematical structure, the verses ahead of its time. But can I say its proof, no I cant, because proof is something very tangible.
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  #107  
Old June 13, 2010, 11:57 AM
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Also I would like to point out to fellow muslims, that its time to accept Evolution in its entirety, and that all living things all came from a single origin. The Quran says this as well.

[Quran 2.164] In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth; In the alternation of the night and the day; In the sailing of the ships through the sees with what benefits mankind; In the water which Allah sent down from the Heavens and brought with it life to Earth after being dead and gave life in it to every kind of land animal; And in directing the winds; And in the clouds that are enslaved between the Heavens and the Earth; [All these] are Signs for a people who comprehend
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Last edited by Nafi; June 13, 2010 at 12:02 PM..
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  #108  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:05 PM
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^^^ Myriads of Qur'anic verses could also be interpreted to be staunchly creationistic.
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  #109  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
However if you just look at the numbers involved in astrophysics, the chances of a universe forming at all, habitable for life, is just so small, they actually becoming insignificant,
The chances of NOTHING forming at all is also very insignificant. The chance of a universe with 40 dimensions (crude example) is also very insignificant. The chance of a universe where Bangladesh is the leader in world politics (and cricket, and soccer, etc etc) is also very insignificant.

Slimness of numbers is not a shunning of possibility. Just because something with a small chance of happening happens does not mean supernatural and metaphysical elements are involved.
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  #110  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
At the end of the day, yes there are huge amounts of evidence for Quran being authentic, the mathematical structure, the verses ahead of its time. But can I say its proof, no I cant, because proof is something very tangible.
Okay fair enough "evidence" not "proof".... but then again arent you sort of contradicting yourself? What was the purpose of this thread anyways then? If you say you wanted to share this with fellow muslims then I ask you "share what?" I am sure there was some underlying purpose.
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  #111  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
^^^ Myriads of Qur'anic verses could also be interpreted to be staunchly creationistic.
What verses...
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  #112  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
The respectful atheist position would be that through chance, Muhammed was an amazing extraordinary man that had produced something as miraculous as the Quran. However for them it just stops at that, they say there was no God involved, it was just a product of rare human genius. There is no sceintific test for validity, through conventional scientific methods

The Silly atheist will say, oh this is just nonsense, you are cherry picking verses from an ordinary dust old book, I could do the same with works of Shakespeare and come up with similar material....and the fact is, no they cant, they probably have tried, and realised how feasible it is.
Actually, a lot of the "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an are not revolutionary or pioneering. Contemporary (and even older) Greeks, Indians, etc had proposed similar theories. Arabia, being an important trade center, were exposed to many such ideas. I remember stumbling on an article that discussed the science of antiquities, and I remember recalling many of the discussions seemed similar to those claimed by Muslims to be first revealed in the Qur'an; except, these theories and conjectures happened before the time of Muhammad.
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  #113  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Slimness of numbers is not a shunning of possibility. Just because something with a small chance of happening happens does not mean supernatural and metaphysical elements are involved.
Thats why I said its not proof...didnt you read what I said before.
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  #114  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:15 PM
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@blah
Despite your strong passion to support your new found BELIEF in atheism, your arguments are very weak and easily debunked, as have been shown by many in this thread, and I find it redundant and simply waste of time to point them out again. Since you seem to have a penchant for quoting random people with random thoughts and leveraging random claims made in blog sites as your evidence, here’s one that probably won’t tickle your fancy much:


Quote:
Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory. (Kurt Godel)

What weakens your arguments for me is that here we have one of the most elementary yet important theories of mathematics--the most important branch of philosophy simply because people can’t go around claiming their ideas as facts unless they can produce a real proof using real premise, real argument and real logic--stating that every formal system is incomplete, and you here are stating your BELIEFS in an audacious manner as if they're FACTS (first para of post #95 for instance), in addition to giving the impression that you’ve been to the twilight zone and back and have solved the previously unsolved mysteries of the world. What you fail to recognize is in essence you’re providing very little by way of real evidence and employing mostly weak logic and what you’re trying to uphold is--at the end of the day--just another BELIEF system and not a scientifically proven FACT.
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  #115  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
Thats why I said its not proof...didnt you read what I said before.
No, I did. I am saying its not evidence either. Its your interpretation that is in line with your belief. Evidence is a powerful word.
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  #116  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
Also I would like to point out to fellow muslims, that its time to accept Evolution in its entirety, and that all living things all came from a single origin. The Quran says this as well.

[Quran 2.164] In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth; In the alternation of the night and the day; In the sailing of the ships through the sees with what benefits mankind; In the water which Allah sent down from the Heavens and brought with it life to Earth after being dead and gave life in it to every kind of land animal; And in directing the winds; And in the clouds that are enslaved between the Heavens and the Earth; [All these] are Signs for a people who comprehend
Where is the part where Quran talks about evolution? Evolution doesn't have a single origin and neither is water the only source of life (you can't drop water in random planets and there will be life).

Again, you are confusing evolution with Abiogenesis, which was discussed earlier in this post.

There are several theories on the origins of water on Earth. The source of water from comet (which I am guessing what you are implying with "In the water which Allah sent down from the Heavens and brought with it life to Earth") is the least plausible explanation and extremely unlikely.

More here.
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  #117  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Actually, a lot of the "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an are not revolutionary or pioneering. Contemporary (and even older) Greeks, Indians, etc had proposed similar theories. Arabia, being an important trade center, were exposed to many such ideas. I remember stumbling on an article that discussed the science of antiquities, and I remember recalling many of the discussions seemed similar to those claimed by Muslims to be first revealed in the Qur'an; except, these theories and conjectures happened before the time of Muhammad.
Well you can provide me sources, to back up what you're saying. because the only similarities I know of, are the seven heavens (dimensions) principle.

And the Quran goes against the thinking of the greeks in one case, because the Greeks believed the theoretical 'particle (atom)' was the smallest thing in the universe, the equivalent of that in the Arabian world was mentioned in the Quran, but Quran says there are even smaller things, you can check my post for the source.
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  #118  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
Okay fair enough "evidence" not "proof".... but then again arent you sort of contradicting yourself? What was the purpose of this thread anyways then? If you say you wanted to share this with fellow muslims then I ask you "share what?" I am sure there was some underlying purpose.
The point was for philosophical dialogue, on how they theorise the universe may be in an Islamic frame. For them to understand the Quran better, most (virtually all) muslims have a poor understanding of the Quran

How many times, do I have to say, the point of this thread was not to show 'Oh Islam is so right and amazing, because of all this!'
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  #119  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:21 PM
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zman....very good post. Although you alluded to one of Godel's Incompleteness Theorems (sadly on which I am not an expert) but that is the prime reason why I am a Deist (more specifically Taoist) because LOGIC itself is tautological and based on axioms which are still ASSUMPTIONS. Hence to get out of that SYSTEM we need BELIEF. LOGIC itself is inconsistent.

If you don't think LOGIC is EMPIRICAL then explain to me why is 1+1=2 and what exactly is "1" and "+" and "="
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  #120  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:23 PM
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@zman,

Yes, I can see how you can deem "atheism" as a BELIEF. However, it's NOTHING like systems of RELIGIOUS beliefs. For one, atheists come to their conclusions based on scientific, falsifiable, empirical LOGIC. Religion does not. You can't claim they do. Religion is pretty much "Here's a piece of pie, eat it." while Atheism is "Here's a pie. Touch it. Smell it. Inspect it. If you fancy, eat it. If not, discard it."
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  #121  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman
@blah
Despite your strong passion to support your new found BELIEF in atheism, your arguments are very weak and easily debunked, as have been shown by many in this thread, and I find it redundant and simply waste of time to point them out again. Since you seem to have a penchant for quoting random people with random thoughts and leveraging random claims made in blog sites as your evidence, here’s one that probably won’t tickle your fancy much:

Atheism is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. Its not a new found "belief" or passion that I stumbled upon few weeks ago. The process of non-belief was the result of introspection over many years, studies of contradictory philosophy and respect for reason.

Quote:

Quote:
Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory. (Kurt Godel)

What weakens your arguments for me is that here we have one of the most elementary yet important theories of mathematics--the most important branch of philosophy simply because people can’t go around claiming their ideas as facts unless they can produce a real proof using real premise, real argument and real logic--stating that every formal system is incomplete, and you here are stating your BELIEFS in an audacious manner as if they're FACTS (first para of post #95 for instance), in addition to giving the impression that you’ve been to the twilight zone and back and have solved the previously unsolved mysteries of the world. What you fail to recognize is in essence you’re providing very little by way of real evidence and employing mostly weak logic and what you’re trying to uphold is--at the end of the day--just another BELIEF system and not a scientifically proven FACT.

There is no absolute truths, there is no absolute facts, there is no absolute theory there is no absolute reason, there is no absolute logic, there is no absolute moral.

It becomes so, unless you have something better to replace the previous understanding. Unlike religion, non-belief is not static; it is open to criticisms in its rational and reasons and will amend itself if needed.
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  #122  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
There is no absolute truths, there is no absolute facts, there is no absolute theory there is no absolute reason, there is no absolute logic, there is no absolute moral.
Blah finally admits it
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  #123  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:34 PM
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@ZeeshanM
I can’t argue that and that’s why I also believe in God almighty. I’m sure there’s somebody up there who's already written proofs in the margin of his diary that explains certain things NO human being can.
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  #124  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:37 PM
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@blah
Do you exist?
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  #125  
Old June 13, 2010, 12:38 PM
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Btw You should look into the Quran measuring the speed of light in my second post

http://www.banglacricket.com/alochon...16&postcount=2
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