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  #1  
Old March 4, 2011, 09:41 AM
WarWolf WarWolf is offline
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Default Question to Siddons and Selectors: Where Is The Middle Order?

First I would to notify everybody that I am not basically a pro-Sddons or anti-Siddons guy. But I became pissed off at him as a head coach quite a long ago. He is simply not upto the mark.

I have nothing to complain about the opening pairs. They have been doing decent jobs for Bangladesh for quite a some time. They lost form in the world cup but they will come back strongly for sure.

Now come to the no.3 position. This position requires innings building capability along with scoring ability at a decent pace. Why does Junaid doing there? I opened a thread about him 2/3 years back telling that he has similar stats in all form of the game. He has averages in between 23-27 in ODI, test, list A and first class matches. This clearly shows he doesn't have good temperament. But Siddon kept on trying him for years with no improvement May I ask, why? I know some may say that Siddons don't select 15. But I am sure the selectors ask for his opinion for finalizing it.

To me Jahurul is a much better contender here. He came to the national team having the experience of highest first class matches unnder his name before getting the call. He is ignored. Why?

Now no.4. Mushfiqur Rahim has a lot of potential but seldom delivered according to it. After playing 87 ODI he is still having an average of 23.40. We often hear Siddon is working with individual performance. I don't see any significant improvement in Rahim to be frank. He is not a good keeper as well. The selectors never tried to test another wicket keeping batsman at all. Why?

We play Shakib in no.5 who is an all-rounder. He scores runs though often gets out in nonsense style. Still I don't have any complaint as he scores runs and takes wickets.

Now at no.6 we have Raqibul Hasan. He has good potentials though I am still not convinced about him. Yet if we have to play him we must play him in no.3 or 4. No. 6 batsman should have the capability of both defending and hitting. He clearly lacks hitting capabilities.

At no.7 and 8, we have Ashraful, Nayeem and Riyad and play any 2 of them. None of them deserves to be there to be frank. These positions require hard hitting yet consistent batsmen like K.O. Brian, Umar Akmal or Yusuf Pathan.

Ashraful has never been a consistent performer and he is completely lost since Siddons came here. A coach's work is to improve a batsman, not to destroy him. But Siddons destroyed him. Nayeem and Riyad had been top order batsman in domestic leagues. They are not hitters. But Siddons tried to change them which didn't work and they are destroyed too.

As we don't have any suitable player for no. 7 and 8, we should have tried some new ones in the series we played in last one year. You never can convert a donkey to a horse. I don't know why the selectors and our head coach doesn't have that common sense.

In a summer I dont see we have any middle and lower middle order that can win us games. If Tamim, Shakib and Imrul doesn't click we are always doomed. We won against Zim and NZ because of the fielding and bowling, not batting.

BCB must also share the blame as they could never supply enough players in the pipeline. Instead of putting his dirty hands in the team management, Mr. Kamal could do some valuable jobs like decentralization of cricket as per his promises.

I see no discipline in the team's planning and approach. It will not take us much further.
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Last edited by WarWolf; March 4, 2011 at 10:12 AM..
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  #2  
Old March 4, 2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarWolf

As we don't have any suitable player for no. 7 and 8, we should have tried some new ones in the series we played in last one year. You never can convert a donkey to a horse. I don't know why the selectors and our head coach doesn't have that common sense.
.
who is the donkey in the team you are talking about? Ashraful or Naeem? Or Both?
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  #3  
Old March 4, 2011, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
who is the donkey in the team you are talking about? Ashraful or Naeem? Or Both?
Ashraful, Junaid, Nayeem, Riyad. Need to mention more?

I think no discussion is enough for Sir Ashraful. So won't talk about him.

Now about Junaid. A player, who never scores long innings and is not able to lift his averages even in domestic cricket, will not be a true match winning top order.

Nayeem is not easy against fast bowlers. He can hit spinners though. He cannot score against good length or three quarter deliveries outiside off stamps. How can we think he will be a match winning lower middle order?

Riyad is not a lower order batsman. If he plays it has to be top order. Otherwise no place in the team.
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Last edited by WarWolf; March 4, 2011 at 10:00 AM..
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  #4  
Old March 4, 2011, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarWolf
Ashraful, Junaid, Nayeem, Riyad. Need to mention more?
If they are the donkeys, then who is the monkey?
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  #5  
Old March 4, 2011, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
If they are the donkeys, then who is the monkey?
You.

(Don't mind mamu. Just joking.)
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  #6  
Old March 4, 2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarWolf
You.

(Don't mind mamu. Just joking.)
Actually I am relieved that you didn't called me Donkey.
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  #7  
Old March 4, 2011, 10:37 AM
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I thought I would break up this two-person thread.

Basically, we have a good opening pair and a proper #5. 3, 4, 6, and 7 are wrong. It is not as if this is a new problem. Rock and/or Riyad might have been an answer at 3 and 4. SN also might be. Jahurul very well could be and a much better WK than Mushfiqur. Farhad Reza also should have been evaluated. However, this was not tried in a methodical manner.

We have only one batsman fit to play at 6 or 7. Mash. We kept trying to make top and middle-order batsmen to fit here. When nothing works, go for broke. Try people like Sabbir, who could be our Kevin O'Brien.

Finally, please keep our games politics free. If BCB appointments were not political, there would be qualified people in place and we would not be in this condition. Is Apa listening?
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Old March 4, 2011, 10:40 AM
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so, you are suggesting a wholesale change in the squad? I am sorry but just curious, when the same team won 4 in a row with NZ, what was your thought?

on a side note, I actually don't know who else can come in the squad and perform even better. It has become a story of BD cricket that we pick up talented kids at teen and they become medicore by the time when they reach early/mid 20, of course after all the years of investment and effort on them. I wonder, do we have a problem with our system?
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  #9  
Old March 4, 2011, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sar2005
so, you are suggesting a wholesale change in the squad? I am sorry but just curious, when the same team won 4 in a row with NZ, what was your thought?

on a side note, I actually don't know who else can come in the squad and perform even better. It has become a story of BD cricket that we pick up talented kids at teen and they become medicore by the time when they reach early/mid 20, of course after all the years of investment and effort on them. I wonder, do we have a problem with our system?
We didn't win again NZ by our batting strength. It was bowling and fielding which brought us the wins. I clearly stated in the first post about it.

Every team tried new players for their weaker positions in the matches over last one year to find right ones. Did we even try for that?

Be honest. Do you believe that we have any dependent batsman in the team except Shakib, Imrul and Tamim?
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  #10  
Old March 4, 2011, 11:19 AM
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This was WI's maiden match at Mirpur. With our strong spin attack Sakib should have bowled first
in this particular match. Moreover for the last few days top orders were practicing how to handle
Kemar Roach. Bowling first if we could have restricted WI below 200 , then our top order could easily chase that target with sound mental strength!!!
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  #11  
Old March 4, 2011, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarWolf

Be honest. Do you believe that we have any dependent batsman in the team except Shakib, Imrul and Tamim?
No no don't misunderstand me. My point is where can we find some good dependable batsman. Clearly our domestic circuit was not good enough for us to produce any good new one for long time. Early days, we thought we change our team very frequently. But this bunch is together for a while now and still not quite at the top level. Who can replace them? All of these guys own matches for us before and it seems think tank has very little option than using those expired licenses..
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Old March 4, 2011, 01:02 PM
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I think the biggest mistake Siddons has done, which has gone unnoticed due to the sudden defeat of the Kiwis and beating Zim at home, is his insistence with the same core group in all three versions of the game. I have said it before and I will say it again, though people think I am some Siddons guy, but the fact is that he has developed this core to be able test batsman, but horribly wanting in shorter version. If you look at our test line up, you will see the exact group of players, and I appreciate him for improving all of their test stats and abilities. But, any casual observer knows, there are some other intangibles that are needed to be a successful one day/T20 player, batting in top six.
First: Identify players who has power that can play quick when needed- then coach em up.
Second : Identify players who are busy on their feet and play run -a -ball with spread field.

Now, who populate our top six ? Here are the five from Imrul, Zunaid, Rokibul, Rahim and Riyad. All five are probably essential to our test line up, but if you look at my criteria above, none has what it takes to be good shorter version players. Its not their fault. Its the fault of coaches and selectors for shoving them in a place where they probably don't belong. If we keep on doing this, we will probably hamper their test credentials. Actually, I am certain that it will happen. What's worse is out of desperation, we are playing them at positions in which they are misfits. For example, at No.4, maybe Rokibul has a case, but to acomodate Rahim, he is batting at no.6! So, both of them can't play at the same time. Either you drop Rahim and get a wkt keeper batsman suited for one dayers who can bat at no.6 ( or open ), or you drop Rokibul and get someone who can bat at no.6. Then, there is Zunaid. He is a no.3 and tell me what he has done to be a no.3 for one dayers? Imrul is ok for now, but sooner or later, he must show that he can be more than a tag along with Tamim. But, He is not my no.1 concern. I can live with him. Zunaid should focus on tests. Rahim should only be a test keeper and bat at no.6 in tests. Riyad only for tests at no.5. Rakibul only for tests at no.4 and maybe some more games in one dayers. In the meantime, go around looking for guys who are capable hitters/all rounders for no.6-7.

If Siddons is retained ( I doubt it ), he must stop with this tunnel vision, and identify-groom-play players that have different skill sets from this core. No.2,3,4,6 and 7 are in play and should be open. I won't tinker much with the test line-up. Last thing you want to do is judge test players based on their one day skills and returns.

Back to the lab. Its ok to have vastly different units for different versions. The sample time was enough, and before we damage this crew in tests, lets stop it before that happens. Selectors must draft players based on specific positions and players suited to each position.
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  #13  
Old March 4, 2011, 04:25 PM
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The selectors also picked a poor squad. Why pick four openers? SN, Tamim, Imrul, Zunaid. As you also can see, there was nobody in the squad who had previous experience at no.6 -7, nor anyone promising that does well in those positions in domestic or under age groups. So, we have stacked the squad with openers,washed up middle order players like Ash, out of form and misplaced low order bats in Riyad, Naeem, but have tasked them to bat at various positions that they are not used to, nor capable off, up and down the order. We are trying to make a decent test batting line-up into an all weather tire ! Time to actively look for many unanswered questions in one day line up. Answer is not in this current group. We should move ahead with them only in tests. I blame selectors and the HC for his stubborn insistence.
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  #14  
Old March 6, 2011, 09:41 AM
WarWolf WarWolf is offline
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As we have to win the rest 3 matches straight away, the question about batting strength comes again. I see no chance as we don't have any one in batting after Shakib.
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Old March 6, 2011, 10:50 AM
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i just dont get our irresponsible middle order.they never gave us stability.they always need an opening partnership to work on.y can't they build up the inings?it's always our lower middle order to clean up the mess created by the middle order.but we have some of the best batsmen available in the middle order. i just dont get y they never click
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Old March 6, 2011, 12:01 PM
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Why doesnt any1 question Mushfiq's performance? He has not done well at all! Jahurul promised a lot that Mushfiq never promised. Mushfiq needs to be dropped soon. He has not proved his critics like me wrong. Hope he does but most probably he wont.
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  #17  
Old March 6, 2011, 12:09 PM
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We have to overhaul our team after the WC if we want some progress.
All the non performing players should be sent to A team and should not be allowed in national team before they prove.
Domestic cricket should be restructured and given more importance.
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Old March 6, 2011, 12:16 PM
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ugirtola
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  #19  
Old March 6, 2011, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isnaad
Why doesnt any1 question Mushfiq's performance? He has not done well at all! Jahurul promised a lot that Mushfiq never promised. Mushfiq needs to be dropped soon. He has not proved his critics like me wrong. Hope he does but most probably he wont.
Mushfiq and Riyad did nothing with the bat after the series with India last year. They had been good in that series. But after that they are delivering craps.
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Old March 6, 2011, 10:36 PM
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What middle order? There's only 2 decent batsmen. The rest are better off fielding early.
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Old March 6, 2011, 11:08 PM
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Siddons is preaching in media that he has got the best 15 players in the country! Hope his permutation and combinations with these would give birth to something tangible in the game against Eng! Verake pitie gadha banaber prokolpo. Anyway, we entrusted our players in his hands. Carry on!
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Old March 6, 2011, 11:35 PM
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With 2/3 capable batsman you want top order, middle order and a lower order ...... lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarWolf
First I would to notify everybody that I am not basically a pro-Sddons or anti-Siddons guy. But I became pissed off at him as a head coach quite a long ago. He is simply not upto the mark.

I have nothing to complain about the opening pairs. They have been doing decent jobs for Bangladesh for quite a some time. They lost form in the world cup but they will come back strongly for sure.

Now come to the no.3 position. This position requires innings building capability along with scoring ability at a decent pace. Why does Junaid doing there? I opened a thread about him 2/3 years back telling that he has similar stats in all form of the game. He has averages in between 23-27 in ODI, test, list A and first class matches. This clearly shows he doesn't have good temperament. But Siddon kept on trying him for years with no improvement May I ask, why? I know some may say that Siddons don't select 15. But I am sure the selectors ask for his opinion for finalizing it.

To me Jahurul is a much better contender here. He came to the national team having the experience of highest first class matches unnder his name before getting the call. He is ignored. Why?

Now no.4. Mushfiqur Rahim has a lot of potential but seldom delivered according to it. After playing 87 ODI he is still having an average of 23.40. We often hear Siddon is working with individual performance. I don't see any significant improvement in Rahim to be frank. He is not a good keeper as well. The selectors never tried to test another wicket keeping batsman at all. Why?

We play Shakib in no.5 who is an all-rounder. He scores runs though often gets out in nonsense style. Still I don't have any complaint as he scores runs and takes wickets.

Now at no.6 we have Raqibul Hasan. He has good potentials though I am still not convinced about him. Yet if we have to play him we must play him in no.3 or 4. No. 6 batsman should have the capability of both defending and hitting. He clearly lacks hitting capabilities.

At no.7 and 8, we have Ashraful, Nayeem and Riyad and play any 2 of them. None of them deserves to be there to be frank. These positions require hard hitting yet consistent batsmen like K.O. Brian, Umar Akmal or Yusuf Pathan.

Ashraful has never been a consistent performer and he is completely lost since Siddons came here. A coach's work is to improve a batsman, not to destroy him. But Siddons destroyed him. Nayeem and Riyad had been top order batsman in domestic leagues. They are not hitters. But Siddons tried to change them which didn't work and they are destroyed too.

As we don't have any suitable player for no. 7 and 8, we should have tried some new ones in the series we played in last one year. You never can convert a donkey to a horse. I don't know why the selectors and our head coach doesn't have that common sense.

In a summer I dont see we have any middle and lower middle order that can win us games. If Tamim, Shakib and Imrul doesn't click we are always doomed. We won against Zim and NZ because of the fielding and bowling, not batting.

BCB must also share the blame as they could never supply enough players in the pipeline. Instead of putting his dirty hands in the team management, Mr. Kamal could do some valuable jobs like decentralization of cricket as per his promises.

I see no discipline in the team's planning and approach. It will not take us much further.
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  #23  
Old March 7, 2011, 12:36 AM
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@Warwolf: very well made points man... agree with you completely.
The problem we face now is because we didn't groom a player properly for no. 3 and 4 in our batting order. We need a player like Nannu, Akram, Bulbul in this side... People might say where is this player beside the 15 we have right now?... Frankly i don't know as well because we haven't tried finding one have we?... its always been a cycle of Roqibul and Ash and Mushfiq at no. 4.. and Junaid only at no. 3. People argue that a player needs to be given a consistent run at a particular position so that he can adapt to that particular role... after two years on we can now safely say that all the players: roqibul, junaid, mahmudullah and naeem have been given enough chances to shine. Now we need to have a closer look at our domestic league and find a player that doesn't only look for boundaries and are able to buckle down, defend and soak up the pressure should a wicket fall early... Junaid doesn't have any of those abilities and somehow he seems like he is destined for no. 3 just because he scores some fluke 50s off dropped catches...
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Old March 7, 2011, 12:37 AM
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Lol @ me reading "middle finger" first re: Shakib

Good thread.
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Old March 10, 2011, 11:28 PM
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According to PA and other news papers, SN is not likely to get a match even on today. Junaid is riding his luck from his GODFATHER. I don't see anything changes today unless Imrul, Tamim or Shakib do anything extra ordinary with bat.
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